Quote from: jonathan on November 15, 2009, 03:56:30 AM
CAB_IV,

Thanks for the link to the photos.  After looking through some of the photos, I believe what I actually saw at the store was a 4-6-2 Light Pacific, probably one of the presidential versions.  I'll have to go back the the store, count wheels, and ask a lot more questions.

You might have saw the first B&O Hudson, Class V-1.   This Hudson as actually built from a B&O P-class (a 4-6-2 Pacific steamer), but with a larger firebox (requiring the extra trailing axle).  They would look similar as a result.

QuoteThanks for the advice, guys.  I'll have to do some studying, before I get even a little excited about these two locos.  Still wondering, a little, why brass is so sought after.  They didn't look any different than a Spectrum steamer, or any other comparable plastic model.  They were nice, but why is brass so cool?

Thanks again,

Jonathan

I own some brass equipment, notably 1 E44 and 3 E44A electrics and a pair of PRR Silverliner II EMUs.    Its not so much that brass is cool, as it is that:

1.) Brass is the only place you'll find most of the oddball equiment (like the E44As), and when it comes to steam locomotives, brass is one of the only places you'll find a turly accurate mdoel.   Many Models of steam engines are generic stand ins. In real life, steam engines often were very different between to individuals of the same class, and every railroad had their own version of a 4-6-4 or 2-8-2, and they were so different that unlike diesels, you couldn't juse swap the horn or add a ditchlight to get the right look.   If you really want a specific model that is accurate down to the rivest, brass is the only way to go.

2.) Brass can be seen as a statment of modeling "power".   Brass isn't cheap, and many modelers liek to have a source of pride.  Few thigns ar as satisfying as having something unique that people ask "Where did you get that?" or "how much would you want for it?"

Quote from: Jim Banner on November 15, 2009, 12:33:22 AM
Isn't the maximum speed of the HPP-8 only 125 mph?  Curiosity makes me ask what speed yours does and how you measured it.

Didn't do any quantative analysis, just observation.  I do know the Atlas AEM7 does have a top speed of just around 125 scale miles per hour.  This was measured by Model Railroader Magazine, and i can't see why they'd be wrong/lie. 

Either way, these HHP8s were moving fairly slow.  slow enough that i don't think it will be able to pace well with the other trains on the layout.  Don't get me wrong, they move, but they don't capture the prototypical essence of these locomotives when you have them full throttle unless they are not pulling anything.

QuoteRemoving the pcb may increase speed slightly, depending on the lighting circuit used.  Why not hard wire in a decoder and see?  Then speed match the locomotives.  Do your decoders support speed tables or were you planning a three point match?

Jim

I didn't want to do any serious cutting before i got all the facts. there are quite a bit of resistors on that PC Board, and the last thing i want to do is blow out my headlights/markers.

I intend to use a TCS M-series decoder in there, and i did test it with an MC2 from one of my AEM7s. I could try changing the speed tables (i've rarely done this), and see how it does.   

Still looking for a Horspower increase, if that can be obtained.

Quote from: jonathan on November 14, 2009, 06:46:58 PMI don't want to get my hopes up or start drooling over a new model if it's not worth it.  So any sound wisdom any one of you could pass, would certainly be appreciated.

Thanks a million

Jonathan

first up, i'd make sure the B&O had these engines.  The B&O only had 4 Hudson steam locomotives, and each was built with very differently as far as drivers sizes and other details go.  they don't stand in well for eachother.  If they are both the same  model, you should only buy one, unless you plan to resell the other. 


B&O Hudson Page- http://www.steamlocomotive.com/hudson/bo.shtml


photos of some of the B&O hudsons can be found here- http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo_steam7.html

Hello!

I was told that the PC-board on the HHP8 actually slows it down and that most bachmann engines perform better when directly wired to a decoder. (at the very least, they go faster. the HHP-8 is almost laughably slow compared to the AEM7s from atlas,  and even the AEM7 only reaches 125 scale MPH.  Realistically, i'd like to make the speeds comparable if possible).

The reason i want to do this is to get some extra performance out of my engine.   I have a club open house coming up, and i wanted to run a long distance amtrak train (Baggage-dorm/lounge-2 viewliners-diner-amfleet cafe/5 coaches.   the club's westbound mainline has a long 4% grade, so this is a tough spot.   I've already made one test attempt with the HHP-8 with bullfrog snot (increases traction) applied to one wheel set, and it wasn't quite able to pull far up the hill, and couldn't really handle the full train even on level track.   

My only other option is a pair of AEM7s or an American GK E60MA Kitbash (this burte can actually pull the whole train by itself no problem when it works, lol), but i wanted to go for the attractive streamlined engine first. besides, i've hardly run the HHP8, and i've had it for years, lol.

this is a photo of the train i'm going for.

does your unit come with a parts diagram?  I don't own this unit, but on many steamers, the front of the smoke box pulls off the model (don't try prying it until you check the parts diagram.  if you don't have one, i'm sure bachmann will send you a copy). 

Failing that,  just check for screws in the usual places, and dissassemble the thing, keeping a close eye on EXACTLY how it came apart.  take notes if you have to .

I tend to organize things in assemblies loosely fitted together, or place the screws in a pattern relative to their original spots on the locomotive so that i remember exactly how it goes together.

good luck.

How has it broken?  do you mean the head of the screw has literally cracked off?  Is there any piece of it left?

I do not have this model so i'm not familiar with how it goes together or comes apart,  so i'm just gonna go out on a limb and suggest that you use some sort of plastic safe penetrating oil  (along the lines of Gibbs oil or WD40, BUT DO NOT USE THESE UNLESS THEY SAY PLASTIC COMPATIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

let it sit for a few minutes, it should loosen up the screw.    if you are fortuneate, you might be able to grasp a bit of the screw with needle nose pliars.   

If you have a small hammer and a strong steel nail, you can hammer the screw at an angle, so to make it spin (only try this after the oil is in), and keep hitting it in a circle.   This is a slow method, but this is how i get broken screws out of anything.   

tell me how it goes.

Quote from: jettrainfan on November 14, 2009, 01:05:51 AM
Alright, I'll take it over to my grandpa's and see what he can do for lubing (i sent my 0-4-0 with the same problem. and it worked.) Thanks for the info.

have you tried lubing or cleaning before?  This may be a good oppertunity for you to learn for yourself, so you can become self reliant in the hobby.  such small skills lead into the more impressive things you see master modelers go to.   

I'm assuming the IHC SD24 follows the "athearn formula" of a center mounted motor with a drive train to the trucks.  Such tune up work would not be difficult, and the supplies would be inexpensive and long lasting.

I'd double check and make sure your track is actually clean, and that it is solidly put together.  then i'd make sure your wheels are actually clean.

even if only 8 of the 12 wheels are picking up power, it shouldn't make a difference (otherwise, you GPs and such would be stalling).  You've probably got dirty wheels.     

here are some photos of a previos repowering attempt.  It worked, but the old frame is to outdated.





I used Airplaine Fuel line (available at any aircraft hobby store) for a drive train.  this is REALLY effective.  It essentially works like a chinese finger trap for trains, and the shafts will not spin on the hose.  THe old motore and drive arrangement  is below.  IF you do choose to remotor it this way, keep in mind that you have to shim the bearings and gears right so that they match up. otherwise, the gears will spin and grind eachother down.  Once you break a Metroliner gear, there ARE NO REPLACEMENT PARTS.

I'm going to start off by asking bachmann nicely to re-run these things before i shoot myself.

because we all know that won't happen,  I'm going to instead fix up the ones i have.  Without getting into an extensive history of the bachmann Metroliners, I will say i have the First Run, which is superior to all later runs except for the paint. 

The cars really aren't that bad for the prototype they represent.  There are parts for just about any Metroliner you want, except for the roof humps (which is only a matter of time before i come up with a plan for them. I'm looking towards useing a photo-etch kit).   

There are a couple things that need attention. 

1.) THe drive train.   Even the original All wheel drive is terrifyingly loud.  this is the fault of the gears.  I remotored my power car, and it didn't help, lol (though the thing could probably out pull any other HO model). 

Instead of using a power car, i have come up with a better solution- Motor Trucks.   These are frequently employed for the trolley/Traction  end of things, and they come in sizes compatible with the wheel base of the metroliner EMUs.  They may be about $60 a pop, but you only need one or two per pair to be able to run.  After all, these are MU trains, and they only need to be able to carry their own weight.  I have succesfully used these in some Arrow III MU kits. they are much quieter and faster than the original MU power frame.

additionaly, most power trucks actually have provisions for sideframes to be attached, so this problem is also solved.   It should be noted that these power trucks have actual can motors and worm gears in them.  these are good running pieces of equipment. 

this will require cutting out the floors under the trucks, so i'll grab a dummy unit to do this.   Using Styrene, i'll rebuild the bolster, and wire in the truck to a DCC decoder.   This brings me to my next plan-

2.) Lighting.   These units have three Headlights  (which is weird, usually the middle headlight on MUs is a red marker.   They also do have red markers in the corners.  with DCC and other electrical advance, its possible to light these.   I can save on LEDs by using Fiber Optics, which is expecially useful on the small marker lights in the corners of the cab face.


3.) pretty much the only Major issue is the paint.   This could be better.   However, the majority of the Metroliners did not get The paint scheme present on Bachmann's Model.  In fact, the prototypes were known as Bachmann's when they were seen in that paint.   Most had their old PRR/PC  D.O.T. stripes or had the "new" amtrak scheme (though I have photos of several strange Penn Central  Amtrak patches and repaints).   Luckily, Metroliner stripes can be had for those of use wanting to repaint the units Into PRR/PC/Amtrak Patch  with striping available through Microscale.  I've used Alclad II Chrome on my Arrow MUs, and I've seen another person use these on Metroliners.  This gives the cars that shiny look that they actually had.

4.) other considerations


There are other details present on the Metroliner EMUs.  Some early ones had large antennas on the roofs, available through IHP.  In truth, you probably wouldn't need to buy them, since they really are a triangular prism painted white.    A little internet digging reveals photos of the rear of the units, which is full of detail.  The grab irons can be scraped and replaced with metal ones (this can be done throughout the model).

Another detail on many Metroliners are the Stemman Pantographs (which are also present on most of the Jersey Arrows (Arrow I, Arrow III).  These loosely resemble to single arm pantograph attached in a diamond shape.  There currently are no Stemmans on the market, but  I am working on them.   Using brass tube and Brass 1/32 wire, the arms can be made.  Additional wire can be used to make hooks (for springs) and Equalizer bars (to prevent them from opening "to far" and folding in).    Right now, I'm working on building the base and shoes.  While its possible to cut this from brass sheet, its time consuming and requires specialized tools (dremels won't work, trust me).    I have recently discovered a metal Photo-etching kit, which I think can make the bases and shoes easily and accurately.   I'll have to get back to that when I grab the kit.

This photo etching kit might also allow for me to create my own roof humps from sheets of brass, but I'm not sure how to do the design for that just yet.  IHP did announce these Metroliners,  I've seen them in person,  but they have not sold any  since their announcement.

The only other major worry is the underbodies.  These tend to warp and crumble, and there isn't anything that can really be done.   I might be able to cast these in resin, but then I'd loose the weight (then again, it can't hurt, since if the MU has a power truck, it doesn't need to be heavy).    IHP did at one time sell improved replacement parts, but they have not been available for years.

That's about it.  It sounds like a lot, and in truth, I probably won't be done with it for years, but this is a good outline of a realistic way to get an improved Metroliner model.   Metroliners are a must if you model  the Electrified Amtrak lines from the late 60s all the way up until about 1982 when they pulled the Metroliners as MU cars.



Metroliners and Arroow IIIs getting treatment.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying,  what was the problem with those two pairs of wheels?  did they lack electrical pickup?

The real question is,  does it run terribly?  for example, I have a Brass E44A electric locomotive, and it is essentially the same deal. only two pairs per truck actually pick up track power.   However, the unit still runs fine, and doesn't have hickups on bad track. 

If i could see it (I never owned one of these units, but i had wanted one way back in the day),  i might be able to figure something.

However,   there really is no fix for poor quality.   By the time you modified everything to work better,  you probably would have been better off with an Atlas SD24 instead.  The inital price might be high, but you're paying for something guaranteed to work.

Quote from: jettrainfan on November 13, 2009, 12:58:22 PM
I don't look for cheap models. I look for locos and rolling stock i like. My top 2 favorite railroads Were ATSF & B&O. So its like making your own world. It doesn't have to be prototypical all the time.

Perhaps, but by the same token, we're talking mechanical parts here.  That P2K will run smoothly, quietly, and reliably.   It runs nicely.  I'm not sure if B&O or ATSF ran those engines (I focus almost exclusively in the North East),  but you'll be better off with something that runs well then something that doesn't.  A good runner will last, and you'll eventually get your money out of it.

QuoteI decided not to get the gp20, and instead, get a GE70 ton instead. Reason: i read one of my 2008 model railroader magazines and found a great review. I love switchers and have been thinking of it for a while, plus, its DCC. Thanks for the info

It can't be 2008, that issue was out this past summer, lol.  Still thats a better pick.    THe 70 tonner will do well.

If you have a $150 budget, and you really want a GP20, seriously,  go P2K.    You will not regret it. I'm sure one can be had for a discount.

Don't get to crazy trying to save money by buying inferior models.  Its not worth it in the long run.     

Since you are on a budget, i reccomend picking a time period or railroad to stick to, and not just buy any random model.   I used to do that a alot, and now i've got a large roster of thing that don't belong with eachother.

Quote from: kamerad47 on November 12, 2009, 05:46:57 PM
I here what your saying but check  out youtube under 45 ton switcher,  it sounds pretty darn good!!!!

All the same, i would make sure you're ready for it.    you Will, as Lexon as noted, HAVE to do some cutting and unassemble the model.   Make sure you keep the parts organized and note how they go together (i usually lay assemblies together if i can, and put screws and things in a pattern that matches the order and general location (relative to eachother) that i took them out. 

Its a one-Way deal.   

Quote from: lexon on November 12, 2009, 08:05:46 PM
i have been corresponding with a fellow in south africa who has done this with the loksound v3.5 with option 72443 and the rectangular speaker with the decoder. he made a little baffle using styrene.
i have just ordered mine to install in a single motor 44 ton. $130.89 free shipping.

this guy sent all his photos of the install. you have to completely take apart the loco and make two cuts to cut some of the frame out using a hacksaw. bits of metal will make life miserable if you do not take the frame apart. also the pc board is not use and the plastic shelf below the pc board is not used either.
I can keep the lights and maybe I will put a strobe on top of the cab roof.
I have a video of someone who did this with a ho 44 ton in germany but it is not the bachmann.
i like the challenge. please remember, this is not plug and play. all my dcc installs sound fine. sometimes i have to tinker.
lex

I would like photos of that installation if you can provide them. My 44 tonner is probably one of the most important locomotives on my roster.   Only my FDT trackmobile is small enough to fit in my small industrial park's trackage. 

Quote from: kamerad47 on November 09, 2009, 04:50:13 PM
I have a bachmann DCC 44 ton switcher does anyone make a DCC sound decoder board for it???

I personally would not reccomend this, for three fairly solid reasons

1.) Fitting a speaker in there will probably reduce the weight, and therefore pulling power of the already small locomotive.  I understand that its not meant to pull long trains, but for a small locomotive, its gonna need all the power it can get.


2.)  the sound will be horrible, just by the nature of small speakers.   They cannot produce the deep sounds of a real diesel engine. As a result, your train will sound funny, not like a locomotive.

3.) In the end, a new sound decoder from loksound or soundtraxx will cost more than the actual locomotive, and you won't be getting any real performance out of either the sound or the locomotive for the $100+ you'll be spending on the decoder, Not to mention all the hours of effort you would have to put in to re-wiring and and cutting out spaces for the speakers and  other equipment.


Save your money and just stick a normal decoder in.