On one thread here someone said that plugging in a decoder was easy.
I'd like to hear what decoders people have gotten to work in the socket.
I run DCC, and have some favorite ones, but have not seen anything showing it actually working.
Thanks,
Greg
Check with Digitrax.
www.digitrax.com
Decoders
I used the Digitraxx 583AR the one designed for the Aristocraft fitted with two motors on each truck on their diesels
Kclassbuilder
Kclass, not meaning offense, do you actually have one plugged in and functioning in a K?
I heard there needs to be a modification.
Thanks, Greg
I was working on installing a Digitrax DG583AR today in one and it does not work. The decoder gets power and I can program it but nothing else works; no motor function, no lights, nothing. I know that the decoder is working because when programing in ops mode, the locomotive jerks and the headlight flashes. It seems to me that there may be something on the motherboard in the locomotive that may be interfering with the decoder.
Thanks Joker, seems that there is no data that anything has ever been plugged in without modification. I'd contact Bob Grosh, I think he has some insight on why the Digitrax did not "plug and play". If you get it working, would you please report here what had to be done?
Thanks,
Greg
Joker
It sounds like you could be having problems programing, even though the loco jerks and flashes during programing.
The following procedure will help narrow down the problem.
1 Remove the decoder and do a reset to it.
2 Connect the decoder directly to your track, and connect a 12 , 18 or 24 volt bulb to the motor output, pins J1-3 and J1-10.
3 Verify that selecting address 3 and changing the speed varies the light on the bulb.
4 Plug the decoder into the socket.
5 Turn the motor switch in the tender OFF.
6 Turn all three switches behind the smoke box to their center position.
7 Again, connect the bulb to the motor outputs (J1-3 and J1-10)
8 Vary the speed again and confirm that the bulb brightens and dims.
9 Turn the motor switch on.
Now, both the motor speed and the light should vary with the speed setting.
If the motor does NOT run, we can start troubleshooting in earnest. Could be just a bad solder joint.
If the motor does run, we can start troubleshooting in earnest. Could be something in the loco or tender interfering with programing. Have some wire cutters handy.
!! DO NOT SKIP THE FIRST THREE STEPS !!
I have already bypassed the tender board. I hooked up a DG583S, the decoder that has the screw terminals, to just the motor and pickup solder pads on the board. The solder pads go straight to the wire harness and into the locomotive. After hooking up this decoder I still had the exact same problem. I will try your suggestion with the light bulb and see if that works but I am running out of ideas and I would prefer not to dissassemble the locomotive.
Thanks,
Ryan
OK, so we switch to another decoder.
I replicated exactly this same setup.
I VERIFY that the decoder runs a bulb on address 3
I connect the red and black to the track
I connect the orange and gray to the solder pads on the engineer side of the bottom board in the tender near the front. They are labled MOTOR + and -
I REMOVE THE DUMMY BOARD FROM THE BOTTOM BOARD.
I select loco 3 and the loco motor runs, both directions, all speeds.
I go to ops mode and change the address to 4
I select loco 4 and the motor runs, both directions, all speeds.
NOTES:
In this configuration, the positions of the motor switch, or for that matter any switch in the loco are a moot point.
If you fail to remove dummy plug the loco will not run.
So you were able to get a decoder to work in your K-27?
Work, no!!
But I was able to run the motor by connecting the track and motor. NOTHING ELSE!
Just a guess . All the Bachman DCC equipment is Lenz . I am wondering if the K27 is set up to use a specific Lenz decoder.
Don
Joker, are you following Bob's suggestions? His step by step approach will yield results, not just "it doesn't work".
If you are following his suggestions, what are the results of the first suggestion of testing the decoder with the light bulb, just connected to the track, no loco?
If that worked, then how about trying Bob's latest suggestion?
Grumpy: Maybe someone will post something about Lenz, but I do not think a "custom" plug in decoder has been made (yet!).
Regards, Greg
I just purchased a Bachman 2-6-0 Mogul. The instructiion manual said that the loco was set up to use LE230 decoder.The information sheet for the Lenz LE230 says that it is suitable for locomotives with a continuos current draw of 2.5 amps or less. This information may apply to the K27
Don ???
So much for all the Hoop-la about a "simple" PNP board huh?
cale ???
I'm actually trying to find and document the experiences of people using the socket, and how easy/hard it is to interface to it.
I'm on the NMRA working group (or subgroup) that is looking at a standard socket.
Based on how difficult this seems to "get right" I'm taking a step back and working on how the various electrical interfaces should be defined. Organizing them into a socket is another quantum leap in my opinion.
On the Lenz issue: I recently looked at the DCC wiring diagram for a Connie, and it does give the connections between the screw terminals on the decoder to the wiring in the loco.
In the Bachmann's with screw terminals, it's often just a matter of unscrewing the proper wire and putting it into a decoder.
In the K, we are still learning what and how.
All input welcome.
Regards, Greg
As a supporter of the socket proposal I was delighted to read all about how the Bachmann K-27 socket was going to revolutionise PnP capability at this thread from the socket designer Mr Stanley Ames: http://archive.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48304 (http://archive.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48304)
I would urge anyone remotely interested in DCC to read through the thread.
Now it seems that unfortunately the dreams of DCC fans are not going to be so easily realised.
Mr. Bachman.
Somewhere in your organization you must have an answer to the Question.
It appears from all the discussion the K27 was released before it was ready and you are now using those who have purchased te loco as the guinea pigs to determine the shortcomiings of the loco.
Don :(
At the risk of being simplistic ::), I ordered and installed the QSI motor and sound board for the K. Pulled out dummy plug, plugged in the QSI, and whadda ya know ;D, everything works like its supposed to. DCC of course, I don't know about any other. Just thought I would throw this in here. :D
Al Wallace
Great Al, was hoping to hear from someone with direct experience.
Did you try to interface with the chuff circuitry, or are you using the QSI auto chuff?
Regards, Greg
Hi Greg. Right now I"m using the auto chuff. Set up right, it is very realistic even at slow speeds. I"m trying not to run it too much due to the counterweight issue, but I'm sure I can fine tune it even more if I want to. Do I dare say that it was PNP? ;D One other thought, price wise, its a lot less for one QSI board, than say a 383 and a P5. Not quite as much flexibility but it works for me.
Al Wallace
Dear All,
As I've said, we will have individual installs for after market systems posted here as soon as possible. I hope they'll be ready sometime next week.
Stay tuned!
the Bach-man
Quote from: Al Wallace on February 07, 2008, 11:00:10 PM
At the risk of being simplistic ::), I ordered and installed the QSI motor and sound board for the K. Pulled out dummy plug, plugged in the QSI, and whadda ya know ;D, everything works like its supposed to. DCC of course, I don't know about any other. Just thought I would throw this in here. :D
Al Wallace
Hi All! Have you heard of anyone installing an MRC decoder in a K-27. I had Phoenix Sound installed at St. Aubins' where I purchased the K-27, and I have MRC decoders ready to install but am very hisitant to begin the installation. Austin
No news on the MRC.
So far there seem to only be two units that plug in:
RCS's system that Tony W. has detailed elsewhere.
And the QSI board, from Tony P. for DCC and AirWire.
Wonder if there is some connection? Anyone else named Tony out ther get anything else to plug and play?
In all deference to the Bach-Mann, it's been a while since the orginal post of December 27 about doing an official listing of decoders.
So, anyone else done it yet?
Regards, Greg
Greg.
Does the QSI read the + chuff signal of the K-27 without any additional parts or modifications to the loco?
Quote from: Tony Walsham on February 28, 2008, 04:35:55 PM
Greg.
Does the QSI read the + chuff signal of the K-27 without any additional parts or modifications to the loco?
According to QSI, if the cuff needs adjustment it is done with their software.
http://www.qsisolutions.com/products/techinfo/qaristo/q2_chuff_interv_calib.html
I have succesfully fitted a MASSOTH E MOTION decoder to my K-27
I found the installation to be straightforward and trouble free it worked first time and the loco performs impeccably ( I use Massoth digital control also)
As a Temporary measure I also fitted an LGB US Steam Sound unit at the same time, I will eventually fit a dedicated K-27 sound decoder when I can source one over here in the UK
Any suggestions please??
Thanks Steve
Another bit of info re:- Decoders for what its worth:
I fitted a Massoth E motion to Heisler it worked fine, when I removed the Massoth decoder and fitted an ESU LOKsound XL
The sound functions worked out but the motors would not run, they only 'jerked' slightly,
The fix was to remove the capacitors situated within both motor bogies, I simply removed the whole circuit boards, and connected the cables disconnected from these PCBs, the loco now works fine.
Quote from: Stevelewis on February 28, 2008, 05:26:41 PM
I have succesfully fitted a MASSOTH E MOTION decoder to my K-27
I found the installation to be straightforward and trouble free it worked first time and the loco performs impeccably ( I use Massoth digital control also)
As a Temporary measure I also fitted an LGB US Steam Sound unit at the same time, I will eventually fit a dedicated K-27 sound decoder when I can source one over here in the UK
Any suggestions please??
Thanks Steve
Boy, that's a new one.
I was not aware Massoth had a plug-in unit for the K-27 Ames Super Socket.
I guess Greg will have to add that to the list.
What Massoth part number is a plug-in compatible for the K-27, so Greg can add part number to his list?
TOC
Quote from: John B on February 28, 2008, 04:52:50 PM
Quote from: Tony Walsham on February 28, 2008, 04:35:55 PM
Greg.
Does the QSI read the + chuff signal of the K-27 without any additional parts or modifications to the loco?
According to QSI, if the cuff needs adjustment it is done with their software.
http://www.qsisolutions.com/products/techinfo/qaristo/q2_chuff_interv_calib.html
Hi John B
The page you listed only gives details of how you can calibrate the automatic chuff. It does not tell you how to interface with the + chuff provided by the Bachmann electronics.
The correct page for installing a QSI into the K-27 is http://www.qsisolutions.com/products/techinfo/qaristo/q2_aris_k27_install.html (http://www.qsisolutions.com/products/techinfo/qaristo/q2_aris_k27_install.html)
Part of that page says:
"The Quantum Aristo decoder has precise automatic chuff synchronization that is easily configured to provide accurate chuff synchronization, even at low speed, with the K27. If you choose to use the Auto Chuff option simply plug in the decoder and start operating. This is highly recommended as it is very accurate and does not have all the installation and maintenance problems associated with the a mechanical/optical chuff. "
Now that looks to me like the QSI
cannot read the + chuff signal without some extra components being added to the Bachmann socket pcb.
I guess that means to date, the only truly Plug'n'Play control system is the soon to be released RCS/EVO PnP-3.
Quote from: Curmudgeon on February 28, 2008, 05:48:49 PM
Quote from: Stevelewis on February 28, 2008, 05:26:41 PM
I have succesfully fitted a MASSOTH E MOTION decoder to my K-27
I found the installation to be straightforward and trouble free it worked first time and the loco performs impeccably ( I use Massoth digital control also)
As a Temporary measure I also fitted an LGB US Steam Sound unit at the same time, I will eventually fit a dedicated K-27 sound decoder when I can source one over here in the UK
Any suggestions please??
Thanks Steve
Boy, that's a new one.
I was not aware Massoth had a plug-in unit for the K-27 Ames Super Socket.
I guess Greg will have to add that to the list.
What Massoth part number is a plug-in compatible for the K-27, so Greg can add part number to his list?
TOC
The Massoth decoder used is not a plug in job, the eMOTION XL ref 8150001 is hard wired to the tender PCB solder pads and the decoders screw connections, a very simple job took me around 10 -15 mins to accomplish. the loco ran successfully at first attempt
Anyone have luck putting in a Phoenix P5 sound decoder using the optical chuff? Mine works but only up to about 40% of full throttle. Then it gets erratic and finally cuts out. Phoenix had me try some capacitors but they only helped slighlty.
Does any sound system work all the way up to full throttle using the optical chuff as the trigger?
Your problem is probably one of several things... First, the capacitor is an attempt to reduce "noise" in the circuitry.
I think that is bogus.
The transistor used is also a red herring, it is not needed to "invert" the signal.
The fundamental problem is that the ground reference for the chuff circuitry is from the K, and the ground reference from your sound board is from your sound board.
Connecting the grounds together is not the answer, you can burn up diodes.
The best solution in my opinion is to power the chuff circuitry from the power from your sound decoder. That does mean cutting into the K circuitry.
I realize that you may not like these answers/options, but they are the information that can be proved, not guesses.
You might just give up and use magnets.
Regards, Greg
Greg, thanks for you input.
Yes, the capacitor was to reduce noise, and it did help but only fractionally.
This is the first I've heard that the NPN transistor is not needed. I'll give it a try.
Yes, if Phoenix can't come up with a solution that works with the optical chuff in the next few weeks I'm going to just go back to using magnets.
Quote from: the Bach-man on February 08, 2008, 10:48:35 PM
Dear All,
As I've said, we will have individual installs for after market systems posted here as soon as possible. I hope they'll be ready sometime next week.
Stay tuned!
the Bach-man
Just bring this back to the top, wondering if now, 2 months later, this list is available, since many people are asking.
Thanks, Greg
Dear Greg,
As many have noticed, the board has been undergoing some changes (and some spasms) of late. I have just gotten back into the photo gallery (which still has some issues, btw), and we are eagerly awaiting the posting of the installs, most of which are done. I hope they'll be up soon.
Thanks!
the Bach-man
Another 2 pence worth from the UK, and a question..... I have installed a QSI Aristo sound decoder (no. 3010-0) in my K-27. My railroad is controlled by MTS, with the voltage reduced through rectifiers. Control of the K-27 is good, sounds are good, but the front and rear lights and cablight do not work. The marker lights and firebox flicker work fine. All lights work correctly when run on analogue with the dummy board re-inserted.
I thought that the lights not working could be due to a speed-step problem, so re-programmed the QSI CV29 to 4, to suit the 14 steps of the MTS. The lights still don't work! Does anyone have experience of the QSI/MTS combination? I'd appreciate some advice on what else to try.
Nick Hall.
Similar problem when I plugged in the Aristo 75 mhz on-board.
Everything worked except the lights.
I wired my motor/track from the receiver to the dummy board and cut the jumper lands from the track to lights, then ran jumpers from the motor to the lights on the dummy brd.
Everything including lights now work fine.
Bud
I think Bud has the best idea. The lights on the K are not connected to the decoder, but to a transistor that works as a current limiter.
The transistors are connected to the socket. The voltages to turn the transistors on and off are not the same as having a LED or lamp connected directly. (or it might be that they require the opposite polarity signal).
The other alternative would be to fool with the transistors and change the circuitry. I would not recommend this, since they are surface mount, and you would have to change the transistor and the resistors.
Regards, Greg
Nick
I use the QSI decoder with the K27 with absolutely no problems in 14 or 28 speed lighting. And I have not found any production DCC decoder that has problems controlling any light or function in the K27.
If I were to guess I would believe that may not have the proper software downloaded in your decoder. Some of the early versions of the software did not control the lighting properly. Check to see if you have the current production release for the K27 software. Also try operating the locomotive in reverswe to see if the lights work properly and also ensure that the lights are working properly in DC mode.
Hope that helps
Stan
Stan, so you have a QSI and a K right now? Can you give the software version (it's a F10 command), maybe that will straighten this out.
Interesting that both an Aristo TE and the QSI were reported with the same problem.
Regards, Greg
Greg
Actually I had the dummy plug in for other tests but switching was no problem.
F10 says ID3
It is not a surprise that the lighting is different in different products. Aristo-Craft has used different approached from time to time. The concensus was to use the SD45 as the model of the correct version which is reverse to many other Aristo locomotives.
Stan
www.tttrains.com/largescale (http://www.tttrains.com/largescale)
When you get a chance, you might want to set your unit to report the firmware version (Bud and Stan).
It's cv 56.255 and you need to turn on at least bit 1, see section 5.8.13 in the manual. (CV 49 = 255, cv 56 = 2)
Turning on all bits will play a lot of information... the firmware version will say something like "seven point one point 6" for 7-1-6.
Current firmware versions are around 7-20-0 by the way.
Interested in the results. I will add that I have had the lighting circuit fail in one QSI system, but that was a hard failure, never worked again.
Regards, Greg
ID=3
1-7-2008
7.20.2
With F0 on
Forward Front on bright rear off
Bachwards Front on dim read on
Hope that helps
Stan
That's as new as it comes.
The fact that the lights work for Bud, means it's not a version issue, there is either power or not on the lighting outputs. So, I would suspect problems with the transistors on the board.
If the decoder had a problem, then Bud's solution would not have worked either.
Suspecting that since the K is pretty new, I would guess that Bachmann does not have the tools to rework the SMT (surface mount) transistors, so his "fix" was the most expedient.
But, it seems that the system works, as Stan has evidenced. So anyone with problems with the QSI and lights should contact Bachmann, or do what Bud did.
Regards, Greg
Thank you all for your comments. I emailed QSI about the lights problem on Friday and am waiting for a reply. According to the 'voice' of my decoder when first switched on, I have version 7-0-52. Does that make sense?
In reply to Stan, the lights work properly in DC mode but do not work in either forward or reverse when in DCC. My experience with the MTS system is that the decoder does need to be set to 14 speed steps - my Bachmann 3-truck Shay had lights problems until I changed CV29 to 4. However, doing that with the QSI in the K has not solved the problem.
The F0 command is no help with MTS - it turns the controller off.
Nick.
Nick
You have an older version of QSI software. From experience I am very confident that the version you have will not work properly. At a minimum you will need to upload to the latest version of K27 sofware that is on the QSI solutions WWW site.
Since the lights work in DC more the K27 is fine. Once you upload the software to the current version, you will be able to determine if you have a hardware problem in your QSI product. One can not tell until you have the current software.
Stan
Nick get your software updated.
There is no hardware problem in your QSI if the lights work in DC, since they are being controlled by the QSI. Since the QSI hardware is powering the lights, the hardware is working.
Page 11 of the QSI manual states "If you set your controller to 14 speed step operation without reconfiguring your Quantup system to the same speed steps in CV29, your Directional Lighting will not operate correctly".
Upgrade your firmware and set things according to the manual.
Be sure to get the BIG manual, it is 267 pages long, get version 4.2.0 from the QSI solutions site.
Regards, Greg