Stan,

Thanks for the great information.

Did you happen to get a reading on the 3-truck shay by itself as far as power draw?

Nathan

“Lets look at DC.  You want to run 4 trains, you buy 4 power packs.”

"I  never did that. Even in the old days with block control. Plus, I haven't seen anybody be    able to actually keep track of more than one effectively, two if you're real good, and three?
Do it and I'll engage you in convesation......
Or, as one said.."Really?  I can run several from one.  Maybe mine makes those special volts and amps Stan uses"."

I regulary run two trains with DCC.  If a sceond person is avalable, three or four is no problem.  At a club or group operating seeesion four is easy to do.  At operating sesions on a properly dedigned layout, you can even have a crew for each train.  And you have to watch for 'signals' if they are installed, or watch of other trains, head on's can happen if you do not.

When I run my two trains, one is just  'going on its own' and I am runnig the other one.  At train shows people like to see the trains going both ways on the same track, they don't care if it is DC or DCC.  On a simple loop with four passing sideings  at train shows I regulary run 4 trains on DCC, two each direction.  Yes, I have taken the time to 'match' the locomotives, and even then I have to keep and eye on them, adjusting the spped of one or two of them every so often.  If I have a second person to help, we have run four trains and one locomotive by it self.  I use this one to 'chase' other trains, changing it's direction to change which train it is 'chasing'.

MTS and some versions of the Marklin systems are not DCC.  There are possable problems as a result.

Nathan

Curmudgeon,

The original post was about the Bachmann Large Scale 3 turck Shay running on DCC.

Stan and a number of us use DCC out doors regulary and also have experiance with DC.  We experiance no more or no less problems with DCC on SS, Brass, or NS.  Yes, there is a limitation of 10 amps on a booster.  My Dad and I both have run as many as 6 large scale locomotives off of one 10 amp booster.  Yes, most of the locos only drew 1 amp each.

On our club layout, which is primarly DC, I have connected my DCC system with one 10 amp booster and run 4 trains on one loop that has a 4% grade at one point.  At least one trains was going up that grade while one was going up a 2% grade, one was going down a 3% grade and one was on a level section.  One locomotive drew about 3 amps on that 4% grade  with no other locos on the track as measured on a Tony's RRAmp DCC reading meter.  The peak current for all four locomotives was about 9 amps, 6 amps most of the time because of the grades.

And we do take our locomotives to places that have DC only and run them with no problems.

Lets look at DC.  You want to run 4 trains, you buy 4 power packs.  Some of your trains only need 1 amp, a passenger train with a three unit PA-PB-PA and 10 passenger cars needs about 10 amps.  What size trains you run says how much you spend on a power pack.  There are a number of large scale DC power packs that are well over $200 if you want to spend the money.

Now you do your block wireing.  A simple passing sideing for two trains, one going each direction.  If you use a reasonable quality electric switch to choose which of 4 DC power packs is going to control each block, you can spend between $50 and $100 on the four blocks.

DCC is not the only answer.  DC is not the only answer.  MTS is not the only answer.  Battery with R/C is not the only answer.  Live steam is not the only answer.  Each person picks the 'control' system that they feel works for them.

As for 'youg Stanley',  I know he is youger then me, I am only 61, but then my Dad is 85, got his first train when he was 3, and been 'scale' model railroading since 1953.  We all have spent time wiring DC layouts and DCC layouts.  Age is not the important thing, enjoying the hobby of model railroading, no mater what the scale, is what it is all about.

Nathan

Stan,

Would like to know the results of you test when the weather allows.  I guess there are some advantages to living where you do not see much snow or ice.

Do you have any current draw tests on the three truck as to real world current draw in normal use?

Nathan

Wally,

If you don't mind me jumping in before Bach Man can get back to you,  My father and I have both used the various Porter's, Shays, Heisler, and Climaxs on as little as 4 ft.  If you can make larger curves use them.  My dad had a 4-6-0 that will work some times on 4 ft, but your track work has to be perfect.  It prefers larger.  You also might look at the traction equipment.

Just try and avoid 'S' curves, even at passing sidings. 

By the way, my dad did not get into large scale from HO until he was in his 70's.  He got his first train set when he was 3 years old and is going to turn 84 this year and still plays with trains.

Nathan

You may have to just do it step by step.  Disconnect the wire at the booster. If that is ok then disconnect all the wires to the track. If you do not have some gaps anywhere on the layout, make a few to divide the layout into smaller sections.  Power up one section at a time.  Once you have found a bad section, disconnect it and check the rest of the sections. 

Then go back to the bad section and make some temporary gaps  to make smaller sections.  It may be a bad turnout, crossing, or even a bad piece of straight track.  I dropped a small nail on the track one time near a frog and it took me several trys to find the problem.

If one does read the DCC Standards and RP's I believe you will find that the decoder is required to withstand 24 vols for N or Z scale and 27 volts for the larger scales. Standard 9.1 Page 3 Lines 70 to 72.  If a manufacture does not meet the standard then they need to let the user know.

Most DCC decoders are not designed to run on other then DCC or DC, and a number are designed to run on DCC only.  All the DCC manufactures I have come across state if they can work on DC in the spec sheets they put out.  Running a DCC decoder on MTS has not been something that most DCC manufactures have even thought about, and I am sure that MTS does not worry about how the DCC decoder works, they only care how the equipment they have designed for the MTS system works.  They are two competitive systems and there is no need for either one to 'play nice' with the other.

As for using DCC, I do not use it because it is 'a computer', but because it is one of several available ways to run several trains on one track in different directions at one time.  It allows me to 'run my train' and not worry about controlling power.

The only thing you have to 'set' is the locomotive address.  Most systems allow you to do this with a minimum 'learning curve'.  If you wish to 'fine tune' from that point, then you can take the time to learn how to make the changes on step at a time.

Each system, DCC, MTS, DC, Radio Control, Live Steam has its good points and bad points.  It took me a while to understand how to wire a DC layout when I first got into model railroading.  I found that as I got into more complex layouts putting in the wires was taking up more and more time.  DCC has allowed me to take less time in the building stage and get to running trains.  The same could be said of Radio Control, MTS, and Live Steam.

This does not mean that DC is bad, or wrong, or 'old fashion', just that is one of many ways to enjoy the hobby of model railroading.

Nathan

There is more to it then just 'low price'.  Several places will give you a 'low price' but get you on shipping charges and 'other charges'.  Sometimes paying a little more at the nearest hobby shop is worth it if they are like several I know that if you have a problem with a new unit within the first 30 days they will ship it back and have it worked on rather then you having to pay the shipping cost.  Twice in side of one week one person I know had two different locomotives he bought go bad inside of the first week and his local hobby shop just gave him a replacement units.

Nathan

SteamGene,

Assumption: HO Scale Layout, one 5 Amp output used on the whole layout, normal draw when running your trains is say 3.5 Amps. This allows for the times that you may have and extra train running or are throwing turnouts and still stay under 5 amps.  If I read what you say right the longest distance from the DCC unit to the end of track is 39 feet.

Run several feeders from the DCC unit to the track, lets say one feeder to each main line on the 26 foot wall, one to each main line on each 17 foot wall and one to each main line on each 9 foot section.  At each yard run a feeder to the lead track, the same to each engine terminal.  Here you could use #16 wire, two single wires each feeder,  one pair #16 'zip' cord each feeder, or one pair #16 'trailer' wire each feeder.  Then a short pair of #18 or #20 wires, lets say about 3 inches long, at the end of each feeder to the track.  It would not hurt to add additional feed points off each feeder pair to each track in the engine terminal or yard.

If you will have more then 3.5 amps normal draw you will want to split the layout into sections with a 5 amp booster for each section, if you main unit is 5 Amps, say one extra booster if you feel that no section would normally see more the 3.5 amps.  Place the main booster along one 17 foot wall and the other one on the other 17 foot wall, splitting the load and running multiple feeders from each one to the areas each serves.

Lets say you want to use a system like the NCE Power Cab.  The power cab it self will not run the layout, but you could use the 3 Amp Smart Booster and several DB3 3 Amp Boosters.  Here you would want to split the layout so that one booster handles the engine terminal, one for each major operating area, and maybe one for a branch line.  Then you could put each booster at the area it serves, running the control buss from the Smart Booster to the other boosters and then running several #18 or #20 wires from each booster to several places in each section it serves.

Nathan

Another type of wire one can find at a good price is 'trailer' wire that you can get at places like Northern Tool & Equipment in 100 foot rolls, or try your local auto supply discount house.  Get the 4 wire, normally it is #16 wire with four different colors.  Then use short drops of smaller wire from this to the track.  This should be good for most areas unless you have very large current draws or very long runs.  At trains shows our large scale club uses this wire for quick set ups and even on loops of several hundred feet with only two sets of feeders the only time we have had problems is when our one member puts on his PA-PB-PB-PA set with 12 to 14 lit passenger cars.

Nathan

There are a number of ways to add sound.  Everyone will say 'Us This' or 'Use That'.  Before you go off in a wrong direction ask yourself some other questions.

Will I want to do some sort of radio or command control in the near future?  Do I want the sound to be under my control or some sort of automatic system?  Where will my sound be used: indoors, outdoors in a quite setting, at a layout with a number of other sound locomotives running at the same time?

I was able to add sound to one large scale locomotive by using a board and speaker that came out of a low cost toy train.  I had no control over any sound, it was ON or OFF.  There are some low cost sound boards that run on 9 volt batteries that you can add some simple magnetic triggers to if you want sounds to happen only at fixed points on your layout.  There are several sound boards that will work with standard DC controlled trains that use an add on box you put between the power pack and the track.  Some versions will work with a simple radio control.

Once you have defined what you want to do then you should be in shape to do some cost shopping.  The range for new sound equipment will run from $30 to $300 for the sound board and speaker.  Controlling the sound can run from $10 to how ever much you want to spend.

I you live in a area that has some good model railroad hobby shops, stop by and talk to other model railroaders and find out what they DO NOT like about the sound systems they use.  If you get Garden Railways Magazine look at some of the web sites the manufactures have in the ad's.

Nathan