I just got the left and right turnout switches added to my track today and seems like the right one is not working properly. They both have power, and the remote switch makes the transfer section move for both, but almost every car I have derails from the right turnout. I tried all kinds of configurations but only one car consistently makes the transfer. Any other car pulled behind the locomotive, or behind the one tank car I have that has no issues, immediately derails as the front wheels fail to catch the turnout. If I try to roll to cars across the turnout by hand they seem to make the transfer, but when they are pulled, they go off track.
So, after an hour or more of frustration I decided to turn the train around and started testing the left turnout. And surprisingly I had no issues at all. Every car in any configuration, makes the transfer on the left turnout without issue.
So that leads me to believe the right turnout is faulty but would love to hear some opinions before I try to exchange it.
YouTube has multiple videos about servicing tracks that suffer derailments. As you would guess, there are multiple issues that can occur and multiple places with the tracking with the cars. I would do a little research with those videos first
Quote from: trainman203 on December 15, 2024, 07:39:43 PMYouTube has multiple videos about servicing tracks that suffer derailments. As you would guess, there are multiple issues that can occur and multiple places with the tracking with the cars. I would do a little research with those videos first
I did look at that first and so far none of the suggestions seems to be an issue for me. I have a smooth contact on the edges where the transfer bar meets the main rail (nothing like a hair or grain of dust causing a gap), there are no rough edges I can feel on the sides or top of the rails, and the decouple bars on the cars don't seem to be too low. I am going to try a new tack configuration and see if the right turnout still has that same issue, if so, I can't see anything else but it being faulty somehow.
If all Your accusations against the turnout are true...
You have one railcar that is faulty as well...or it would derail like anything else
Having any railcar make it thru without any issues points to the other railcars...not the track
Check the wheels/gauge/truck tightness
Also insure that all cars meet at least the minimum NMRA weight standard
For HO Scale the standard is 1oz plus 1/2 ounce per inch of length
7 inch car = 1 oz plus 3.5 oz = 4.5oz total weight...MINIMUM
Quote from: JonJet on December 15, 2024, 09:22:47 PMIf all Your accusations against the turnout are true...
You have one railcar that is faulty as well...or it would derail like anything else
Having any railcar make it thru without any issues points to the other railcars...not the track
Check the wheels/gauge/truck tightness
Also insure that all cars meet at least the minimum NMRA weight standard
For HO Scale the standard is 1oz plus 1/2 ounce per inch of length
7 inch car = 1 oz plus 3.5 oz = 4.5oz total weight...MINIMUM
I get your logic, but I have a loco and 1 car that makes it fine on either turnout, and 5 cars of questionable quality that don't, but they all work great on the other turnout. So I would again say it is not the cars but the turnout, since one turnout works with all cars and the other only works with the loco and my highest quality rolling stock car.
For cars of a lesser quality...
Bring them up to standard and they should work fine
Even if they look gorgeous...it's what is underneath that does the real work
I can screw trucks/couplers to a brick and it will track perfectly
But even the prettiest Barbie will derail on bad undercarriage
Quote from: JonJet on December 15, 2024, 10:13:52 PMFor cars of a lesser quality...
Bring them up to standard and they should work fine
Even if they look gorgeous...it's what is underneath that does the real work
I can screw trucks/couplers to a brick and it will track perfectly
But even the prettiest Barbie will derail on bad undercarriage
Yeah, I will need to upgrade some of these, but I just got everything 2 days ago, so still brand new to this.
Quote from: furstukin on December 15, 2024, 09:30:35 PMI get your logic, but I have a loco and 1 car that makes it fine on either turnout, and 5 cars of questionable quality that don't, but they all work great on the other turnout. So I would again say it is not the cars but the turnout, since one turnout works with all cars and the other only works with the loco and my highest quality rolling stock car.
You should definitely check the track with an NMRA guage. That is a good tool to have in this hobby as it helps you find problems and correct them.
Now the questions:
Do these cars deral at the points, or somewhere else? What is your track configuration coming into the switch? Is it straight track, or a curve? Does the curve run the same way as the switch itself, or the opposite way? WHat locomotive are you using? What cars are derailing? WHat cars are they coupled to when they derail?
Are all your rail joints properly seated on the other track sections? SOmetimes where the cars go off the rails is not the place where they actually derail. I've seen wheel flanges ride on top of the rail for quite a distance before they hit the ties.
If you have any cars with truck mounted couplers, they will be contributing to your problem. If you have any cars with oversize flanges on the wheel (as per a NMRA gauge), they will be contributing to the problem. If you have any coupler trip pins hanging too low, they will be contributing to the problem. If you have wheel sets that are gauged too wide or too narrow, they can be contributing to the problem as well, especially if they enter a stretch of track whose gauge is also in error such that when combined, the summation of the two problems allow derailment.
Plastic wheels pick up track imperfections a lot more easily than metal wheels. If the offending car has plastic wheels, replace with metal.
Now, to the track switch. The very beginning of the point rail where it meets the stock rail may be too sharp and pointed and picking at wheels and needs to be filed slightly. Look for the video that shows you how to do this. The same thing with the frog, if that's where the problem is happening, the point of the frog may be misshapen. You need to check the gauge of the track itself through the entire track switch. Sometimes the point rails aren't bent 100% correctly and will be out of gauge. This has happened to me more than it should have, making wheels either jump the rail if it's too narrow or drop down if it's too wide. For you to be having a such a global problem with derailments, I would suspect that everything I've mentioned above is causing one thing or another to fail.
If you don't know what of these railroad terms mean, you need to look them up so you know what they mean so we can have a sensible, accurate, and efficient discussion about this.
I am certain that I have not possibly picked up on every potential issue that could be lurking in your Railroad. If others find that I've missed something, please post.
All of this is part of your Model Railroad education. It is not a turnkey pastime. These little trains are demanding and fussy in multiple dimensions that make themselves known as you learn things. I've been doing this almost 60 years and I still get at least an aggravation or two a day.
Quote from: jward on December 16, 2024, 10:39:24 AMQuote from: furstukin on December 15, 2024, 09:30:35 PMI get your logic, but I have a loco and 1 car that makes it fine on either turnout, and 5 cars of questionable quality that don't, but they all work great on the other turnout. So I would again say it is not the cars but the turnout, since one turnout works with all cars and the other only works with the loco and my highest quality rolling stock car.
You should definitely check the track with an NMRA guage. That is a good tool to have in this hobby as it helps you find problems and correct them.
Now the questions:
Do these cars deral at the points, or somewhere else? What is your track configuration coming into the switch? Is it straight track, or a curve? Does the curve run the same way as the switch itself, or the opposite way? WHat locomotive are you using? What cars are derailing? WHat cars are they coupled to when they derail?
Are all your rail joints properly seated on the other track sections? SOmetimes where the cars go off the rails is not the place where they actually derail. I've seen wheel flanges ride on top of the rail for quite a distance before they hit the ties.
The turnout is coming off a straight section of track into an 18-degree turn. All connections on the track are smooth/flush with no rough edges I feel. The cars that derail are: a coal car, a tank car, a log dump car, a gondola, and the caboose. The one car that makes it is a Bachmann tank car, and the locomotive is a Diesel F7 Thoroughbred. The cars that derail do so in any configuration whether they are pulled directly behind the loco, behind the one tank car that can make it through, pulled alone or with additional load behind them. And they all seem to derail the same exact way, as they start to turn right the front right wheel fails to catch the track switch and they try to continue straight as the rest of the train is turning. It is very similar to if you have a train running through a turnout and suddenly your 3 y/o flips the switch on the turnout back to straight lol.
This video covers manual switches, but I've run into the same issue with EZ-Track remote control switches. I used 0.020 spring stock from a local craft shop on mine to cure 'point picking'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K-9RtDj0t4
Len
Let's get a report after all track and all wheelsets are checked with an NMRA gauge. Let's also hear if any cars have truck mounted couplers and/or plastic wheels. The type of car doesn't matter, the wheels and couplers do. If one car is making it and others aren't, the problem is probably mostly with the cars. It could be the weight of the cars, they may be too light. Google NMRA recommended car weight.
This discussion is getting circular. We're saying the same things over and over again. We need some harder information to solve the problem.
Quote from: Len on December 16, 2024, 04:01:40 PMThis video covers manual switches, but I've run into the same issue with EZ-Track remote control switches. I used 0.020 spring stock from a local craft shop on mine to cure 'point picking'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K-9RtDj0t4
Len
This does indeed seem to be the problem I have filmed it in slow motion and just as it hits the point where the transfer rail meets the main rail the wheels slip in just enough to cause it derail. Not sure why my loco and one tank car make it through fine, but I have even tried adding a load to weigh some cars down and they still derail. That said I am not sure going through the process in the video is worth my time, since I can exchange it for a new one. And given the left one works I can only assume this is just poor-quality control.
But I did have a simpler idea I wanted to run by some people with more knowledge. If the rails are steel alloy, can I lightly magnetize the transfer rail so it wants to hold the main rail when in the transfer position or will that be a problem for the electrical track?
Quote from: trainman203 on December 16, 2024, 06:11:20 PMLet's get a report after all track and all wheelsets are checked with an NMRA gauge. Let's also hear if any cars have truck mounted couplers and/or plastic wheels. The type of car doesn't matter, the wheels and couplers do. If one car is making it and others aren't, the problem is probably mostly with the cars. It could be the weight of the cars, they may be too light. Google NMRA recommended car weight.
This discussion is getting circular. We're saying the same things over and over again. We need some harder information to solve the problem.
There are no truck mounted couplers. Three cars do have plastic wheels which I will be replacing as soon as the metal ones arrive. All other cars have metal wheels. And I got a new car today that is a 60' Bulkhead Flatcar, also with metal wheels, and it has the same issue derailing on the right turnout, but the left turn out is fine.
But I think the video Len posted is the problem. In slow motion you can see the wheels slip in just slightly kicking the transfer rail off the main and it then derails. What is interesting is if you push a car through by hand holding it at the top it is fine, but when you roll it through at speed, (push it and let it roll down the track) it will derail just as if it is pulled by the loco. Also, if you push it through by hand holding it closer to the trucks it derails so when the torque is from the chassis as it is when it is pulled it derails.
Len's video was one of the best I've seen on YouTube. The guy is competent, he doesn't ramble, and gets to the point..... unlike a lot of swell headed self-appointed windbag experts that appear too often.
Then a weak point spring appears to be the issue. I have had that problem on one particular number 5 Bachmann switch on my layout. The only problem is that my switch is completely buried in ballast and scenery so I can't flip it over to work underneath. With a finished situation like mine, I need to install some kind of external switch stand to hold the points of the switch in place. The only problem is that there's no good place on the Bachmann throw bar to secure it. As a result, when I'm switching this particular spur, I have to very carefully check the point to make sure it's secure against the stock rail. It's kind of an aggravation but it's a lot better than ripping the whole thing out to service below.
Just an update, I replaces all plastic wheels with metal today and those cars still derail, I also tried to file down the end of the transfer rail a nit but still no luck, so I returned it for a new one as I do not have any spare sprint steel or equivalent nor a desire to rip apart something brand new where if I broke it I can't return it.
Quote from: furstukin on December 16, 2024, 07:15:29 PMThis does indeed seem to be the problem I have filmed it in slow motion and just as it hits the point where the transfer rail meets the main rail the wheels slip in just enough to cause it derail. Not sure why my loco and one tank car make it through fine, but I have even tried adding a load to weigh some cars down and they still derail. That said I am not sure going through the process in the video is worth my time, since I can exchange it for a new one. And given the left one works I can only assume this is just poor-quality control.
But I did have a simpler idea I wanted to run by some people with more knowledge. If the rails are steel alloy, can I lightly magnetize the transfer rail so it wants to hold the main rail when in the transfer position or will that be a problem for the electrical track?
This is a problem often seen with manufactured switches such as EZ Track but the problem is not limited to just them. As they come from the factory, the switch points (what you call a transfer rail) have ends that are way too blunt. There are a couple of things you can do to help the problem. First is that you can block the offending point open with a small scrap of wood or plastic, then CAREFULLY file a taper to the point. Start an inch or two back from the end, and file the inside face of the rail head, where the wheel flanges run. File enough material off the point that it is sharp in the end. I build my own switches, and you could cut your finger on my switchpoints. You don't need to go to that extreme but the sharper the point the less likely the wheels are to catch it and push it over. In addition to this, when I build mine I notch the stock rail so that the point fits in the recess in the rail. The wheels never have a chance to contact the end. That is very difficult to do on a pre-assembled switch but you can do the next best thing and CAREFULLY grip the rails just ahead of the point with a pair of pliers. Gently put a slight twist in the rail. In effect you want to create a little jog in the rail to direct the wheels away from the switchpoint, similar to the recess I file in mine. You have to be careful when you do this. Too much twist will make the track guage too narrow and cause more derailments. The twist is something the real railroads put in their stock rails for the same reason suggested here.
If all this seems like a pain, remember this is a DIY hobby, and little tricks like these can overcome the shortcomings of the manufacturing process. It would cost too much for anyone to mass produce track to the standards I use in building my own, but for the most part it performs pretty well regardless. The two main areas I have found on prefabricated switches are the points, and sloppy tolerances in the flangeways at the frog and guardrails. There is a DIY fix for that problem too, should you ever need to use it.
So, I got a new turnout and this one works when the train is going slow, but everything, including the locomotive, derails at speed. And the wheels generally making a clicking sound as they roll over the frog arms. There are some rough edges I will try to smooth out, but this seems to be really bad quality control. The manual switch for throwing the frog arms is even reversed on the two different right turnouts. For one you move it toward the turnout to engage on the other you move it away. So, they obviously have no "standard" assembly method or at least no one doing inspections to ensure proper assembly. I must have gotten lucky that my left turnout works flawlessly. This is definitely making me want to steer away from the EZ track for the future.
Now for the other fix I alluded to in my last post. Often the flangeways on the frog and guardrails are too wide. A hacksaw blade is the proper width for these flangeways. Since yours are plastic, a simple solution is to glue strips of styrene in the flangeways until the hacksaw blade just barely fits. Once the glue has set you can use a hobby knife to trim them down to the top of the rail. Any good hobby shop should stock these strips. Many will have a P;astruct or Evergreen display rack with various sizes to choose from.
Quote from: trainman203 on December 17, 2024, 09:03:39 AMLen's video was one of the best I've seen on YouTube. The guy is competent, he doesn't ramble, and gets to the point..... unlike a lot of swell headed self-appointed windbag experts that appear too often.
Then a weak point spring appears to be the issue. I have had that problem on one particular number 5 Bachmann switch on my layout. The only problem is that my switch is completely buried in ballast and scenery so I can't flip it over to work underneath. With a finished situation like mine, I need to install some kind of external switch stand to hold the points of the switch in place. The only problem is that there's no good place on the Bachmann throw bar to secure it. As a result, when I'm switching this particular spur, I have to very carefully check the point to make sure it's secure against the stock rail. It's kind of an aggravation but it's a lot better than ripping the whole thing out to service below.
I appreciate the suggestion, but to be honest these seem like extreme fixes for what seems to be some of the lowest quality track around. And really for the price the charge for the turnout it shouldn't be so low quality. I get that "EZ" track makes it simple to setup a track in minutes with built in power connections and a solid base for you to be able to set it on the floor if needed. But if key parts like a turnout are so shotty they require you to reengineer it yourself, then why bother with EZ track? The base makes it unrealistic for modeling anyhow. Seems like this track is meant for a very simple and temporary setup like a Christmas train scene etc. Once I get my table built, I will likely go for one of the flex track options.
What are you going to do when flex track doesn't solve the problems you are having with switches? What I described and how to fix them are problems not exclusive to EZ Track. If you are not willing to fix the problems you are having why ask for solutions here? The problems you are having are entirely related to switches, and using flex track is not going to solve them. What will you do when you switch to another brand of track only to find similar problems there? Despite efforts to make it plug n play, model railroading has always been a DIY hobby. If you are not willing to put in the effort, you can't expect the results you desire.
Quote from: jward on December 19, 2024, 10:13:54 AMWhat are you going to do when flex track doesn't solve the problems you are having with switches? What I described and how to fix them are problems not exclusive to EZ Track. If you are not willing to fix the problems you are having why ask for solutions here? The problems you are having are entirely related to switches, and using flex track is not going to solve them. What will you do when you switch to another brand of track only to find similar problems there? Despite efforts to make it plug n play, model railroading has always been a DIY hobby. If you are not willing to put in the effort, you can't expect the results you desire.
Well, if you read the OP you would know I was asking if the switch was defective, and how to trouble shoot that. I never asked how to fix something brand new. And the answer is yes, the piece is defective, and the replacement is also defective. So again, I do appreciate the advice on how to fix some issues, but if I am paying just as much for an EZ track switch as I would for flex track switches, I would expect it to be a plug and play piece that doesn't require modification, hence the label "EZ".
That said from what I have read of other brands, the switches are pretty solid. But if I did have to make a modification on flex track, well that is expected given flex track is a totally manual setup where you literally cut track to fit remove ties etc. as I am sure everyone here knows far more about than me :)
Quote from: furstukin on December 18, 2024, 08:02:26 PMThe manual switch for throwing the frog arms is even reversed on the two different right turnouts. For one you move it toward the turnout to engage on the other you move it away. So, they obviously have no "standard" assembly method or at least no one doing inspections to ensure proper assembly.
This is alluded to in the video I mentioned earlier. It's a matter of whether the gear moved by the throwbar was installed with the pin in the 'up' position, or the 'down' position. It works either way, but reverses the direction of the throwbar. The fix is to adjust the gear pins to all be in the position you prefer for 'normal through' operation. Annoying, yes, but most kids don't notice.
Len
The OP has hit the truth button. EZ track is basically toy train track that a kid can put together and is stable enough when connected to work under a Christmas tree, neither of which apply to standard Model Railroad sectional track or flex track.
Repeating what Jeffrey ward said, this is not a DIY hobby, he said it very well about quality vs expense. Model railroads have hundreds of pieces of parts and any one of them can be a problem.
There are hobbies that have no intrinsic maintenance issues and those are good for people that don't want to handle them.
where does one find flex track switches ???
There are no flex track switches. But manufacturers who offer track for more advanced Model Railroads including flex track all offer many different switches in different curvature gradient, some of them curved.
EZ track is an ingenious system very well designed for its intended purpose, which is a sturdy system strong enough to stay together, stay level, and perform well in toy train settings like under Christmas trees. Not that many model railroads use it on actual layouts but I did because I wanted to be operating fast. I have at least 10 Bachmann number five switches on my layout and I have to say, they all needed tinkering of some degree to finally operate perfectly but once there, they were there and still are. Model railroading is not a hobby that you just plug together and go, there's always stuff needs doing. And some of us like doing that stuff. The rewards are there if you do it. I don't think Model Railroading is alone in the tinkering factor. I don't know much about remote control cars or RC airplanes or drones but I bet they all need the same level maintenance or more that Model Railroads require.
Quote from: trainman203 on December 20, 2024, 12:16:37 PMEZ track is an ingenious system very well designed for its intended purpose, which is a sturdy system strong enough to stay together, stay level, and perform well in toy train settings like under Christmas trees. Not that many model railroads use it on actual layouts but I did because I wanted to be operating fast. I have at least 10 Bachmann number five switches on my layout and I have to say, they all needed tinkering of some degree to finally operate perfectly but once there, they were there and still are. Model railroading is not a hobby that you just plug together and go, there's always stuff needs doing. And some of us like doing that stuff. The rewards are there if you do it. I don't think Model Railroading is alone in the tinkering factor. I don't know much about remote control cars or RC airplanes or drones but I bet they all need the same level maintenance or more that Model Railroads require.
I was fortunate enough to come from a family of modellers, and the techniques I suggested were taught to me by my grandfather who started the hobby back in the 1930s when everything in HO had to be scratchbuilt. He took the time to show me in person how the real railroads did things, and how to scale that down for use on the models. His railroad was full of things that people to-day wouldn't even think of doing. The yard switches were operated by a system of bell cranks and push rods that mimicked the system used by the real railroads before electric switch motors, activated from a central control panel using levers bought at an electronics surplus store. They were probably war surplus. Under the layout were quite a few home made twin coil switch motors with hand wound coils. Who would even try to do this to-day? And yet, they worked at least as reliably as anything on the market now.
I took all of this stuff for granted when he was alive. Looking back from 50 years or so in the future, I now realize amazing what he thought of as normal truly was. Trainman, you often lament what was lost on the real railroads. What I described is what we have lost in the hobby as well.
I know some of which you speak, Jeffrey. I remember the magazines in the early 1960s when a lot of of those early craftsmen were still active and writing in the magazines, guys like Bill Schopp, The Layout Doctor, Jack Work, and Eric LaNal. Everyone in Model Railroading was an adult older than me and I was awestruck by the maturity of the entire hobby.
I took the deep dive off of the train set diving board into the actual Model Railroading pool in early 1961. My daddy brought me a copy of Railroad Model Craftsman and that was it. For a train set kid, Model Railroading at that time was astounding.
People were still scratchbuilding steam locomotives out of brass, and plastic railroad cars had just begun to appear in numbers. I would go to the G&G model shop in Houston when we visited our relatives there. My mother and aunt would drop me off for two glorious hours of Model railroad paradise while they went shopping. Silver Streak and Ulrich wood craftsman kits outnumbered the plastic ones. I bought the first of several diecast steam locomotive kits there, there's nothing in the Model Railroad world today to compare to them. They didn't have the best detailing or running characteristics, but when you built them and got them running and painted them, they created your dreams and visions of Railroading, which at the time still had a lot of romance and power of imagination about them. There were Suydam metal building kits you had to solder, they looked great, but I was never able to build one. There were Alexander craftsman building kits, and of course, the $49.95 brass steam engines were behind glass, unattainable dreams of glory for a kid like me. I think the most I ever had in my pocket there was 15 1963 dollars. I do remember when I converted to Kadee couplers and on one trip there, I spent nearly all my money on couplers and couldn't buy any cars, although at the time I probably had a dozen, which was riches untold. They had a little layout in the shop with complete scenery, probably one of those atlas plans that had a track running diagonally over the board, crossing over the other track on a trestle and then disappearing into some tunnels. Those guys were unbelievably nice and let me open all the kit boxes to see what I'd be getting.
Today I have a lot more and a lot better stuff, but somehow I really miss those days and the magic that model railroading had back then is gone to a great degree today.
Sorry to diverge from the topic of the post, but Jeffrey pulled a huge nostalgia trigger from me.