For those who remember that I'm always changing my layout. With that, I have a curious question.
Is it feasible to have HO track turnout on an incline? I currently have an incline (basically 2 %) and want to add a turnout just below the top of the incline.
In my experimentation using EZ track, I note that the turnout track will have an angle. I'm using several short curves and 5 short straights to flatten out that part of the track that's at an angle. The curve and short tracks have enough bend (flex) in them to flatten out that portion of turnout track. Oh! I thought about using "flex" track to make that transition but that would require doing more work, like setting up a road bed, anchoring the flex track, etc.
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Then again, after thinking about this a little more, in real life- are there no turnouts on inclines of real railroads. That is, are all turnouts made on level grade? Frankly, I haven't seen any in photos or on railfanning videos on u-tube to indicate any turnout on an incline.
Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
I would imagine on prototype railways with high-grade areas that have to have gigantic multi-mile inclines, there would by necessity be crossovers and sidings on grade.
Mountain railways would of course put crossovers and switch tracks where they needed them, on or off grade.
Mine railways and tramways operated almost exclusively on grades and would put switch tracks and sidings whereever they wanted.
The only thing I might add is that the railroad might try to put a trailing switch facing downgrade so that anything in the siding would roll away from the main, not onto it. Plus, you can be certain that there were derails in place in such a location.
Read about the runaway escape tracks on Saluda.
https://www.abandonedrails.com/saluda-grade
On the rea railroads, very little track is level. Almost all of it is on a grade, however slight. The railroads are very meticulous about keeping track profiles, basically engineering documents that show grades and curves, for every line that they operate. These are also given to train crews as it helps them greatly to know how steep the grades at any given point on their run. Thus, the railroads have no problem placing switches on grades. The problem Trainman mentioned about cars rolling away onto the mainline is handled by derails on the sidings. These are designed to cause the errant cars to hit the ground before they make it out onto the mainline. Better to clean uop a minor derailment than a collision with an oncoming train.
On a model railroad, there is no problem placing switches on a grade. I do it on any layout I build. The general rule I follow is to avoid placing the switches within about a track section (9") of a change in grade. This is more important at the bottom of the grade than at the top. The couplers tend to dip at the grade change, and if a switch is there the trip pins can snag on the trackwork. Other than that, I've had no operational problems related to switches on a grade.
Jeffrey is spot-on about the importance of track profiles on the prototype, and how useful they are in the Model world.
I have a set of track profiles for the Gulf Coast Lines in 1943, the railroad and year I am most interested in. I didn't think about mentioning them before because these are the only profiles I've ever seen and of course I'm here on the Gulf Coast where everything is dead flat. Unless there's some bridge approach down at the other end of the system that I didn't notice.
If someone is very serious about replicating some particular Railroad in a particular location at a particular point in time, they should locate a set of track profiles as they are very detailed about not only the gradients, but also the weight of the rail, ballast type, the capacities of passing sidings, locations and types of industries, and I'm sure a lot of other things I can't think of right now. One thing I can think of that was in there for certain were detailed plans for all types of standard structures like speeder sheds, water tanks, and even some details about switchstands. My track profiles were invaluable for answering a lot of questions about my favorite railroad.
You will not find these profiles on book selling sites since they are not published for public consumption. I got mine through the Missouri Pacific historical Society, and I'm certain that almost any other historical society would know where to find one for the Railroad of your choice.
I got my profiles from employees when I worked with the railroad. They saw my interest, and would feed me all sorts of documents they came across. I had them for the territories I worked, the former Pennsylvania railroad east and south of Pittsburgh. Combined with the employee timetables they told you all you needed to know about the line.
For those curious about what these look like, here is the territory I worked:
https://www.multimodalways.org/docs/railroads/companies/CR/CR%20Track%20Charts/CR%20Pgh%20Track%20Chart%201977.pdf
Yes, Jeffrey, I had a friend like that who was a hogger on the SP Houston division. When employee timetables were superseded by new editions, he gave me all the old ones, gave me a switchman's lantern, other stuff. And lots of great stories about out on the Railroad. I lost all the timetables and stuff in a fire. But I still have the Railroad stories.
The greatest gift he wanted to give me, I didn't accept and I'm still kicking myself about it. He offered me the chance to apply for engine service on the SP. He himself couldn't hire me, of course, but he was one of the most respected and most senior engineers on that division. He said all he had to do was introduce me to the road foreman and I would be hired. 50 years ago you had to know somebody to get a job on the road like that, and I knew one of the best guys on the Railroad. He told me they were crying for people, that the oil boom had generated so much traffic that they couldn't bring Trains into the yard because the crews were timing out, and they had to park the trains on passing sidings which messed up operations even more. He told me exactly how it would be, I'd have to work crummy shifts on crummy yard jobs for three years or so and then I could start picking the runs I wanted when they would call.
I had just begun to work as a young architect and thought I should develop my career. Little did I understand what a dead end that would be, and that if I had worked to retirement on the railroad, I'd be twice better often than I am now.
the answer is Yes. On may currently layout it has several turnouts on grades. But I am using Flex track and packaged turnouts with cork and foam roadbed. This allows the track to contort to vertical changes smoother.
You will have to experiment with EZ-track.
I can say from experience that EZ track is not very good for accommodation of gradient changes. It's very good for its intended usages which are train sets and basic single level table top layouts. But the plastic road bed is very rigid and a gradient change will generate a vertical kink between the two affected sections, which will affect operation negatively.
Avoid....the location will be problematic down the road.
Gentlemen, this was very enlightening to say the least. The track charts from my point of view are basically engineering drawings. Something I am very familiar with in the electrical field. Of course, your drawings although interesting, I was never associated with the railroads, understanding them will require some thought.
The way I have experimented with EZ track is to use the smallest sectional track and many of them to bend to the vertical change. The problem I found with EZ track is that Bachmann didn't make a very short curved sectional track. Therefore, in my experimentation I have to make the curve more straight than curve. It looks more like 33-inch curve with a straight section in it. It works, but I don't seem to be able to get it to look ecstatically correct. Lastly, I didn't think about cars near the incline on the turnout...would roll away, that is, Engines don't cars do.
The track charts are engineering documents that provide alot of information for the train crews. Everything is documented here. The photo below is for the ten mile section that runs by where I live. You can see grades, curves, underpassses and overhead obstacles, as well as track speed limits. Note that curves are expressed in degrees instead of radius, Degrees has nothing to do with total arc as it does in model railroading. Instead it is a way for the surveyors to deal with curves with a radius too large to survey from the center point.
(https://i.imgur.com/RViR6fp.png)
As for the cars rolling away problem, this is a trade off for the free rolling cars we now have. Back in the 70s when cars had alot of rolling resistance it wasn't as much of a problem. In fact, I used to lay my yards out with a half precent downgrade to help with backing trains into the yard tracks.There have been some ingenious solutions to the roll away problem, including the use of retractable pins between the rains that will catch the axles to stop them from rolling. A more practical solution is to make the sidings level even though the mainline is on a grade. I will be building a new layout soon that will put this to good use.
Okay, I guess where I've gotten hung up is the "OH" and the "UG". I believe that the "OH" actually stands for Overhead. But the "UG" doesn't seem to fit. I tried "Underpass, Undergrade" but is this correct?
Also I could not figure out what the decimal line indicates. It starts out "-1.01 then goes to -0.77, -0.63 then -1.52, etc.
Maybe if I ever decide to stop modifying my track layout or when I get tired of relaying track and moving thing around. I 'll make a engineering document like this for my more permanent layout.
Quote from: Ralph S on May 30, 2025, 06:54:51 PMOkay, I guess where I've gotten hung up is the "OH" and the "UG". I believe that the "OH" actually stands for Overhead. But the "UG" doesn't seem to fit. I tried "Underpass, Undergrade" but is this correct?
Also I could not figure out what the decimal line indicates. It starts out "-1.01 then goes to -0.77, -0.63 then -1.52, etc.
Maybe if I ever decide to stop modifying my track layout or when I get tired of relaying track and moving thing around. I 'll make a engineering document like this for my more permanent layout.
As you guessed, OH is overhead and UG is undergrade. These are the overpasses and underpasses.
The numbers with the decimals are the grade on the track, in percents. -0.77 is a 0.77 percent downgrade, +1.00 is a 1 percent upgrade. Grade direction is referenced to the mileposts, in ascending order. Since the line is westbound by milepost, the area you reference is a rather steep downgrade into the Pittsburgh Union Station between mileposts 352 and 353 which is just west of this sheet. This section was originally the passenger main, freight trains left the main at CM tower at mp 348 via the Brilliant Branch. This was one of the many bypasses the PRR built around congested areas like the station. The Port Perry Branch around MPs 340 & 341 is another of those bypasses. Also of note is the number up top between the mileposts. This is tha actual number of feet between the posts. As you can see it varies up to 10 percent from an avtual measured mile.