With every DCC conversion of the 2-8-0 I had to cut a capacitor to get it to run correctly. When I put the decoder in my 4-6-0 I don't remember seeing a capacitor on the circuit board. It runs OK but not great. Before I open the tender up again to look (and figure out how to pack the decoder back in correctly) are there any capacitors on the 4-6-0 board that need snipping? - Nevin
I think Bachmann says that all of their boards have capacitors.
Gene
http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/loconews/bachmann-revisit.htm
There may be a photo of the decoder on the 'Net but I have not found it yet.
Rich
I opened it up this morning before work and sure enough there is at least 3 yellow capacitors 1 large and 2 small. Now which do I cut? The big one? All three? I wish they would standardize theses circuit boards. - Nevin
Quote from: NevinW on January 23, 2008, 11:51:14 AM
I opened it up this morning before work and sure enough there is at least 3 yellow capacitors 1 large and 2 small. Now which do I cut? The big one? All three? I wish they would standardize theses circuit boards. - Nevin
Maybe this might answer your question.
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/dcc/engines/bach-280.htm
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/dcc/engines/bach-shay.htm
http://members.shaw.ca/sask.rail/dcc/2-8-0/index.html
http://home.neo.rr.com/mrwithdcc/con280.html
Maybe the 2-8-0 has a similar decoder. When you solve he issue, take a digital picture and using a photo application, note which capacitor as this issue will come up again.
Apparently Bachmann is not addressing this issue. If they have, I must have missed it.
I will be at a model railroad show this Saturday and I will ask a Tony's Trains rep and see if I can find an answer. This is about the best I can do.
Rich
If you simply bypass that decoder adapter jigger and hard-wire your decoder to it's respective intended connections, you will not have that problem. Oh yes.. It can be done. Think about what you would do if you were installing into a brass locomotive pre-decoder anything.
Rich
Quote from: NevinW on January 23, 2008, 09:30:51 AM
With every DCC conversion of the 2-8-0 I had to cut a capacitor to get it to run correctly. When I put the decoder in my 4-6-0 I don't remember seeing a capacitor on the circuit board. It runs OK but not great. Before I open the tender up again to look (and figure out how to pack the decoder back in correctly) are there any capacitors on the 4-6-0 board that need snipping? - Nevin
What is the brand and model number for the decoder? I do not want to assume as you said you installed the decoder in the 4-6-0. Maybe a photo of the decoder would help.
Could there be an issue with the decoder configuration?
Rich
It is a Train Control Systems M1. The decoder is fine. The question is which capacitor to clip on the 4-6-0. TCS has a nice picture showing the installation of their DCC decoder in the Spectrum 2-8-0. It shows the yellow capacitor that needs to be clipped. It is probably the big one on the 4-6-0 circuit board. I just want to make sure before I go after it. That web site with the picture is:
http://tcsdcc.com/decoderpics/bsse.html
As an aside, TCS makes good decoders. Nevin
Quote from: NevinW on January 23, 2008, 04:40:23 PM
It is a Train Control Systems M1. The decoder is fine. The question is which capacitor to clip on the 4-6-0. TCS has a nice picture showing the installation of their DCC decoder in the Spectrum 2-8-0. It shows the yellow capacitor that needs to be clipped. It is probably the big one on the 4-6-0 circuit board. I just want to make sure before I go after it. That web site with the picture is:
http://tcsdcc.com/decoderpics/bsse.html
As an aside, TCS makes good decoders. Nevin
It looks like you have your solution. Good to know.
Rich
I'm not an electronics person, but cutting a capacitor on a locomotive in the US or Canada does no harm. Cut them all.
Gene
I agree with Gene - if in doubt, chop them out. (And I am an electronics person.)
But for those who just can't stand to modify their locomotive in any way, there is another solution if your decoder supports CV09. It is the ultrasonic ("silent") motor drive that causes problems. Reducing its frequency is a solution. You can lengthen out the motor pulses by increasing the value of CV09 until the capacitors no longer have an effect or until you can longer stand the noise.
I thought this was what the NMRA was organize to do? standardize issues like this. It seems every 2 or 3 months someone is inventing a better mousetrap. DCC has been around- +10 years? Still no common connectors, plugs, or any thing the modeler might have to tackle in routine use, nevermind customizing. I am sitting on the dcc fence, and will spend no more money on it until everyone get thier ducks in a row.....I am happy with quantum making noise while it rolls on DC, why couldn't we have used that as a baseline, and get technical from there if and when the modeler can? Copywrites and royalities? I can't help but think this hi tech stuff intimidates lots of new people from spending the big bucks, which is how new models get to the production stage......
Tony, I couldn't agree with you more. Once upon a time all quality steam picked up on one side of the locomotive and the other for the tender. The draw bar was on the locomotive and the pin on the caboose. Everybody except Mantua fed power from the tender to the loco via a brass drawbar and wire.
It would be very nice if Bachmann, Proto, BLI, Athearn, and all other steam loco builders would agree, or NMRA would dictate a mating system that was uniform. I would sell a bunch of locomotives if I could buy ones that would mate instantly to the Bachmann 16V.
Gene
Yes it would be nice if all locomotives used the same dcc plugs, and tenders had the same drawbars and connecters. How ever it is not up the NMRA to dictate that. How ever you would think that all spectrum tenders would work with any locomotive. You should not have to cut this or that and add things to get them to work. We must face the fact that changes are a must. As long as they make things better, than it is better for all in the long run.
I installed the LCS M1 decoder in my 4-6-0 and we took out all the capacitors and it runs just fine.
Don
[I'm not an electronics person, but cutting a capacitor on a locomotive in the US or Canada does no harm. Cut them all. ]
How about in Australia? will it be any different? I have very little knowledge on this topic, but I have several Bachmann locos all equiped with decoders (Bachmann). Do not understand when you all talk of an "over speed problem" or "silent" motor drive. I have noticed that my consolidation 2-8-0 does speed dramatically on a steep decent, logicaly this to me is an over speed problem, am I correct. Please people shed your wisdom to this novice!
I snipped the capacitors and it made no difference that I could observe. - Nevin
Quote from: TonyD on January 24, 2008, 05:49:33 PM
It seems every 2 or 3 months someone is inventing a better mousetrap. DCC has been around- +10 years? Still no common connectors, plugs, or any thing the modeler might have to tackle in routine use, nevermind customizing. I am sitting on the dcc fence, and will spend no more money on it until everyone get thier ducks in a row....
Tony, that parade of better mouse traps is called "Progress." Without progress, we would still be paying $100+ for a simple speed/direction/headlight decoder and $1000+ for a simple command station. As someone who has been involved with multiple locomotive control for 40 odd years, I love it that I can buy a full featured decoder for less than $20, install it in a locomotive that predates "DCC ready" by a decade, and have the whole thing working in less than an hour.
I thank the NMRA for all their work in making this possible. But I do not expect them to set standards for every possible little thing. And I do not expect them to set standards for all the other countries in the world. I appreciate that they have set a standard for a type of DCC plug, and more important, for basic DCC colour coding. But I hardly expect them to set standards for tender connections. If a manufacturer wants to sell after market tenders, he will set his own standards. But I expect that the number of customers who want to play mix and match with locomotives and tenders is too small to be profitable. So people wanting odd ball combinations will have to continue making minor wiring alterations to make them work. But let's face it - changing a plug or two, or hard wiring a tender to a locomotive is not much of a job compared to say scratch building a new tender from the ground up.
As far as everybody getting their ducks in a row, don't hold your breath unless you look good in blue. It just won't happen as long as manufacturers keep coming up with better ducks. Twenty-five years ago a friend explained to me that he was going to wait until computers were "perfected" before buying one. They would be perfected, in his opinion, when they stopped making improvements. He is still waiting.
Bottom line, don't wait for DCC to be "perfected" before you start enjoying its benefits. Enjoy it now, even if you have to put up with its foibles and peccadilloes.
Quote from: johnnyutah on January 25, 2008, 03:43:34 AM
How about in Australia? will it be any different? I have very little knowledge on this topic, but I have several Bachmann locos all equiped with decoders (Bachmann). Do not understand when you all talk of an "over speed problem" or "silent" motor drive...
Australia, like Canada and the US, is sparsely populated. So radio frequency noise from your trains is very unlikely to interfere with your neighbours' enjoyment of their radios and televisions. So the capacitors installed in Bachmann locomotives to make them meet codes around the world can safely be removed.
Because their locomotives include these capacitors to suppress radio frequency interference, Bachmann decoders use lower frequency pulses to drive the motors. These pulses can be heard as a hum or growl in some (many?) Bachmann locomotives. If the noise is objectionable, silent decoders can be used. Silent decoders pulse the motor at frequencies above the hearing of most people. But at these high frequencies, the capacitors conduct appreciable currents and start to short the outputs of the decoders. The decoders start to shut themselves off to protect their circuitry. And the locomotive runs erratically. So with silent decoders, which today is almost all decoders, you have to remove the capacitors for proper decoder operation or you have to adjust them to not be silent decoders. About 100 out of 100 modellers will choose to remove the capacitors.
Over speed is familiar to every trucker and to most drivers who have ever pulled a large trailer. When you start moving down a hill, gravity increases your speed. Your first reaction is to ease up on the gas. If your speed keeps increasing, particularly past the speed limit, you have an over speed condition. Note that the speed limit is not necessarily the legal speed limit - it may be the safe limit for your rig under present conditions. If you cannot reduce your speed or keep it down to the speed limit, you have an over speed problem. A train is similar. But with say 120 cars and weighing 12000 tons, a small problem quickly becomes a BIG PROBLEM. Particularly so if you not only cannot slow the train but cannot even keep it from accelerating. This is where your life starts flashing before your eyes.
In model railroading terms, "over speed" is often applied to a train going faster than normal down a hill. It should never occur when there is a hand on the throttle but often does when a train is running mindlessly around a layout with grades. Personally, I like to see a train struggling up hills and making up a bit of time going down hills, but this effect can be carried too far. "Too far" might be when the train goes shooting off the rails at a curve - that would definitely be an "over speed problem." The solution, short of someone actively driving the train, is to use Back EMF control. Without going into details, this is a sort of cruise control for trains. Properly adjusted, it can reduce down hill speed and increase up hill speed. But in my opinion, trying to achieve a constant speed (just like a good cruise control) is non-sense. Trains in real life rarely have enough horse power to keep their speeds up going up hill. And the same speed down hill and on the level may not be the best combination to minimize fuel consumption per ton-mile.