I am in the process of constructing a new layout; but need to give you some background as to why. My almost completed current layout was to be moved from its present location in our garage (it is of a fold up design) to what was our guestroom. I carefully measured the guestroom window and determined the layout would pass through on the diagonal. Unfortunately, I measured on the inside and didn't take into account the screen 'molding' on the outside. The result is that the layout is approximately 2" too large. So it is back to the drawing board.
After careful consideration, I decided to plan a variation on the Whatsup Dock Co. offering in the layout section of the Model Railroader website (the layout was featured in the March 2009 issue of MR).
I have built probably 8 or 9 layouts in my modeling career. Some were well thought out...others left much to be desired. I am conversant in the L-girder, and tabletop designs and can rely on these experiences again. I am wondering if there is anything new in the hobby? In other words, are you all still using 1x4" pine or are there other materials that are lighter and less intrusive (otherwise one has to be very careful where the cross braces are located). Because I do not want to damage the walls of the room the layout will be 'L' shaped and free standing. Please keep in mind I am concerned about benchwork only...the surface material is not an issue.
Your replies are appreciated,
Ray
Some work has been done on building bench work with metal studs. Advantage is that the studs are straight and stay that way. And unlike wood, they do not expand and contract with moisture. Any expansion/contraction that they have is due to changes in temperature and is similar in magnitude to the thermal expansion/contraction of rail. The down side is the slight extra cost and the need to pop rivet, screw or bolt the pieces together.
I have not used this method but would consider it. I have used tin studs to make bridges in large scale. Two 2 x 4 studs nestled inside another to form a closed box will support a multi-engined large scale train on spans up to 8 feet. Two 2 x 6 studs back to back makes a nice through girder bridge in large scale and will support more than 200 pounds centered between supports 4 feet apart.
Foam or plywood table tops, chicken wire, etc. can easily be attached with drywall screws or various glues or wired in place. If you like foam with some support under it, consider 1/2" drywall or 1/2" plywood as the support. (Ray, I know the surface is not an issue for you but it might be for other readers.)
I too try to avoid permanently damaging walls but I still attach layouts to them. With this in mind, I have finished or helped finish several train rooms in painted drywall. This makes it easy to paint the walls a "sky blue" and over spray with thinned white, adding more and more white down to the horizon line. Adding clouds/mountains/trees etc. does no damage as long as the paint is thin, for example, artists' acrylics. Only after the walls are painted do I add a ledger board, typically 2 x 4 screwed on with one #8 x 3" wood screw per stud. When it is time to move on, the layout can be dismantled, the screw holes Spackled and sanded, and the whole room repainted. Just a few hours work and nobody could ever tell there was once a layout in the room. This works with drywall but not with wood paneling. One model railroad buddy solved the wood paneling problem by studding a new wall in front of his paneling and covering those studs with drywall. Twenty years later, he took down his layout, removed the drywall and studs and had the original paneling back, in immaculate conditions. Needless to say, he had not nailed the studs to the paneling, just to framing on the floor and at the ceiling.
Jim
Jim - I have also been wondering about the uses of steel studs. It would seem to me that they would be lighter than a 1x4" frame. I came upon an interesting 'paper' on the Internet wherein the writer maintains that we build benchwork as if someone was going to walk on the upper surface...in other words, we build them too strong and too heavy. He further states that the touted L-girder construction method is largely overkill. The ever clever Carl Arendt suggests using sandwiched light plywood that easily supports a cantilevered shelf layout of 24" wide.
Cantilevering the layout eliminates layout support legs and frees up the underside of the benchwork for maintenance or other uses...also easier to vacuum under the pike. The negative side of cantilevering is that I would have to use the walls for support...something I am rapidly realizing I will have to do...whether I like it or not.
Yes, I think your idea of supporting the benchwork from the walls via screws is a good one. As always I thank you for your assistance.
Ray
All my previous layouts have used the 1 x 4 and 1 x 2 made into L girders. It was overkill but it worked and never gave me any trouble. My current layout is just 1 x 2's framing on 2' x 4' plywood and homasote. I use 2 x 2's for legs. It has supported my weight but I won't make a habit of it. This, too me, is still overkill but it works and is easy to work with.
(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u134/pdleth/presentlayout-1.jpg)
I think that the good old "L-Girder" construction is as good as any. That being said--I am using an open grid with plywood top--and the framing is 2x3 Doug Fir--mainly because I had a lot of 2x6 left over from the building package. I am screwing it to the wall studs, since when the time comes to remove the layout, I will have been "removed" already.
For layouts that must be moved--I have used hollow-core doors. Often you can get damaged doors from apartment managers--there is always someone who gets a bit rough knocking on doors. gj
if i were using regular track, i'd seriously consider the use of the woodland scenics foam risers, over a plywood top. but since i an handlaying everything, i am sticking with tried and true pine. i will post photos at a later date of my layout under construction.
steel studs sound interesting, but i can see where there might be problems. true the coefficient of expansion is similar to that of rail, but you'd still need a wooden top. i wonder how you would keep plywood screwed to metal studs from warping, many of us do not have the resources to build the layout in a perfectly climate controlled room with insulated walls and carpeted floor the way they show in the magazines.
Jeffery,
I worked for many years in a building where the partition walls were made of 3/4" plywood screwed to metal studs. Walls, even ones 20' long, had no problems. However, if the layout were being built in a garage or attic with no heat or air conditioning, or if a lot of wet scenery were laid down at once, I suspect there could be problems. In that case, 1/2" drywall would be a better choice.
Ray,
I like layouts built strong enough to walk on because sooner of later I always seem to end up doing just that. At least I do with "permanent" layouts.
For portables, I like light weight construction and am presently working on an 0N30 layout with 1-1/2" of foam bonded to 1/8" Baltic Birch plywood. The foam serves as a compression member while the plywood below it serves as a tension member. The group I model with has a large scale portable layout that uses similar construction. It consists of 50 tables, mostly 2' x 4', made of 1-1/2" foam with 1/8" hardboard on the bottom and 1/8" or more of sawdust and glue mixture on the top. The top layer is both the finished scenery and a hard compression layer. The large scale layout has a rim of 3/4" plywood around each table to add strength and provide attachment for legs. With the 0N30, I am going to try a 1/2" cedar rim and no top member, to further reduce the weight.
Jim
The reason I went light on my construction is 2 fold. One, because of my stroke, I had to make the sections as light and strong as possible. I can only really work with one hand. Two, I didn't need it that solid as everything is reachable and is still reachable. I kept the table height to 32 inches and everything is within easy reach. All wiring feeds to the middle where the bus wires run in the center isle. The only problem I might have is replacing or re wiring the back 2 left turnouts
Hi pdlethbridge
The benchwork I build is a cross between the US L girder and UK open grid
systems.
But I replaced the wooden L girders with 50mm X 50mm X 3mm aluminium
angle and all cross timbers are 2 X1's
By the time the table frame is together the resulting structure is strong enough to hold my weight, a thing I am particular about I figure if it cannot take my weight it isn't strong enough.
The use of aluminium as the main bearers takes quite a bit of weight out.
and meant I can man handle the frame into place on my own.
I am not sure I like the idea of hanging one side of a layout off a wall
I have always made "a movable layout" not to be confused with a
transportable layout.
I mean easy when I move house as apposed to an exhibition each year.
regards John
My wife is considering letting me move my layout from the garage to the basement family room. It will be considerably smaller, a 5' X 12'.
Has anybody ever considered putting their benchwork on wheels? As I get older the thought of climbing up on my layout sounds less appealing. The layout will have to go against a wall with a corner.
The advantage of wheels would be allowing me to pull the bench work back when laying track, adding scenery elements, etc. I'm toying with the idea. Disadvantage would be all the weight supported by four legs with wheels. Anybody else ever tried it?
Regards,
Jonathan
About 25 years ago I built a 5' x 12' G scale railroad in a bedroom. I had six legs with casters so that I could pull the whole railroad out from the wall to work in the back. It worked very well.
-JRT
One other method that seems to work well is to make the kind of wooden I-beams than are now used in home-building for floor joists instead of 2 x 10's. The builders usually use a beam that consists of top and bottom 2 x 4's with 8 or 10 inch wide by 1/2" plywood webs. This can be adapted to model RR benchwork with 1 x 2 stringers that are slotted and 1/4" x 3" plywood webs glued into the stringer slots. This does require access to a table saw and a dado blade, but it makes a for a light, strong, framing. If weight is a really big issue, you can get a small hole saw and cut holes in the web to further reduce weight, like they do in aircraft.
I also endorse attaching to the walls, if practicable. As noted, taking out the screws and some spackle and paint fixes things right up.
I have seen modules that have PVC pipe for legs. At the last train meet I attended one modular group had their modules resting on light stands - the kind that would be used by professional photographers. Great idea for a model but maybe very expensive for home use.
THe advantage of using PVC pipe for legs and other supports is that it is relatively cheap and easy to work with.
Wow...keep those ideas coming! A couple of things struck me as I read through the latest round of posts: 1) there are alternate ways of constructing benchwork - using modern materials and procedures, 2) attachment to the wall(s) may be desireable for stability; but would make rear-of-layout maintenance more difficult, 3) the idea of mounting the whole thing on lockable wheels is very unique and worthy of further thought.
I am going to check with Lowe's to see what the charge would be to longitudinally cut a 4'x 8' piece of 3/8 or 1/2 plywood (probably birch due to its strength) into 3" strips. The strips could be glued together (I doubt you would need more than a couple in one unit) to form material for the basic benchwork. Unfortunately Lowe's charges for each cut...resulting in the modeler paying for 15 cuts (yes, the math is correct). I'll get back to the group with my findings.
Ray
jonathan,
The group I model with has a layout at our local museum. The main part, on public display, is 4 feet wide and 25 feet long. it is a single table on eight legs, each with a caster. The casters allow us to move the layout back from the glass that separates it from the public.
The rest of the layout is a 24" shelf along the back wall of the layout room plus two liftout bridges, one at each end, connecting the shelf and the table. A back drop behind the table hides the back part of the layout from people looking through the 25 foot long window.
Our movable table is a grid of 1 x 4's held square with sheets of plywood underneath. The layout itself is set on risers screwed to the grid with the tracks on 3/4" lumber and plywood roadbed and the scenery is plaster over chicken wire on risers on 1 foot centers. The layout is surrounded by 3/4" plywood 12" deep to give the required stiffness. We regularly walk on this layout to change the overhead bulbs that illuminate it. It works for us.
A friend used a modification of our framing system to build a corner layout that is about 6' x 12'. One end of his layout is up against a couch, which is also on casters. To move the layout out from the corner, he turns the couch 90o and move the layout diagonally out from its corner. It works for him.
Jim
Quote from: jonathan on August 07, 2009, 06:46:38 AM
Has anybody ever considered putting their benchwork on wheels? As I get older the thought of climbing up on my layout sounds less appealing. The layout will have to go against a wall with a corner.
Regards,
Jonathan
i am currently doing just that for the reasons you stated. casters are readily available at lowes at modest cost. the ones i am using add about 2" to the layout's height, but the advantage of being able to pull it away from the wall to work on the back sections will be worth it i hope.
I have returned from my fact-finding mission to Huntsville, AL (actually my wife wanted to take advantage of the tax-free weekend and add to her overabundance of clothes...uh, we don't need to inform her of my comments).
I stopped at the Home Depot and found out that a 4'x 8' piece 23/32" luan plywood sells for #16.12 a sheet. Additionally 11/32" [don't you wish we would use the metric system?] BC sanded plywood is $18.87 ea. Home Depot makes the first two cuts for free and charges 25 cents/cut after that. As I said yesterday, you would need 15 cuts to yield 16-3" pieces that would be 8' long (considerably cheaper than cutting 32 pieces 4' long). The gentleman I spoke to wasn't sure they could cut all the 3" strips as their saw needs about a foot at the bottom of the sheet.
Now the plan would be to laminate 2-3"x 8' pieces together - making a very strong support piece(s). [Aircraft in the 1930s and '40s were constructed using this method.] I tried this by holding 2 pieces of 1/2" plywood together and then comparing it to similarly sized pieces of 1"x 4" pine...there was a significant difference in weight...the plywood being the lightest. Again, food for thought.
One of the things I avoid; is doing (or using) something because "that's the way it has always been done". Already you folks have come up with some different ideas.
Oh, the wheels/casters: Our local Chinese tool store (read: Harbor Freight) has a large selection of casters - any one of which would fit the bill.
Ray
Well... casters are starting to sound better. I'm glad to hear some others have done it, and it works. Now all I need is approval from higher authority.
Wish me luck.
Regards,
Jonathan
Instead of getting Luan plywood ripped you could use lattice. You can buy 1.5 or 2 inch wide pine lattice at most Home Depot locattions. This is much easier to laminate especially if you can get pieces 10 -12 feet long.
While a member of my former club, we used lattice and little three quarter inch blocks (which I cut on a table saw.) We used three splines separated by the blocks. We even made clamps out of carriage bolts and left over material. We then drilled the center spline to hold a 5 penny nail (try to find these!) driven through into a riser. Then we covered the laminated splines with homasote roadbed - again, cut by me on my trusty radial arm saw.
This method was featured in Model Railroader and we used it with much success.
Woody - As I understand your post, you used lattice for your track sub-roadbed? I am familiar with this procedure and have used it in the past. What I propose using the 3" laminated plywood for is the actual benchwork (where most builders use 1"x 4" pine). In other words, are there new materials and/or new methods other than the L-girder system of yore?
So far, my limited research has shown that 2 laminated pieces of 3" plywood could be used as a frame for a layout AND be lighter in the bargain. The concern I have is: what problems am I not seeing with this method; and are there other options that are superior to this one? The L-girder design has been around for years...but is it still as relevant as it once was? My buddy, in Belgium, uses a method of very light strips of wood that are underscored by a cookie-cutter style of luan backing (adds tremendous strength and very little weight). I am sorry I am not being very descriptive about this option (I know I have seen this done once...but can't remember where). [I can describe the process of construction and am willing to do so in a later post if requested.]
On the otherhand, I suppose you could laminate a couple of strips of lattice together. Given the large grain of the pine used in lattice; I would think the strength isn't there - although you would end up with a 'beam' that measures 7/8"x 1.5" (using a single 1"x 2" trues out at 15/16"x 1.5"...an insignificant difference).
I am glad I have stimulated some thought and discussion with this topic.
Ray
Our club had new quarters and we wanted to get it up and running quickly. The layout plan was designed to scale. We used L girder construction and the location of risers were placed on the plan. We were very fussy about not having any curves less and 4 feet radius (in HO) and we found that the long splines would form a nice natural curve without any coercion.
Once the risers were placed we added the splines. First the center ones, held in place with 5 penny nails and a dab of glue. By the way, we drilled the splines before adding the nails - then the splines didn't break. After the center spline was added, we added the blocks and then the outside splines. The work went fast!!
Everything was open; the only solid bench work was the yard which was made from 5/8 inch plywood covered with Homasote. We even developed a spline method for turnouts. Once everything was assembled and glued the roadbed was very strong. After all how much does an HO train weigh? The open areas were filled using zip texturing (another Linn Westcott MR development) Later we used rolls of plaster cloth.
Unfortunately the landlord kept raising the rent and there were members who did little but complain about the slow process of construction (but did little or nothing.) Sadly we had to close up. Demolishing all the spline work after I had spent many hours in assembly was especially troubling to me.
The spline method has many variations. The original article appeared in the mid sixties so it would really be difficult to locate unless the method is in one of Kalmbach's books.
I have seen roadbed made from laminated strips of luan plywood. That works but ripping the luan is laborious.
One word of advice - any glue used on laminations should be yellow resin glue. White glue like Elmer's will work but it becomes brittle and doesn't allow the spline assembly to stretch when the train room gets hot. Of course an air conditioned train room will help with this problem.
Anyway, good luck with your railroad. I always found making the subroadbed, cutting the Homasote and then hand laying track to be very relaxing. (I also made the jigs for laying the ties!)
I have never used spline road bed but those that have swear by it. I seem to remember that one of its advantages was that it automatically formed easements into and out of curves. Another was that you could make it all up on the flat (on top of your L-girders or joists) and add risers later. Then it would form eased vertical curves as well.
I had the pleasure, in the late 80's, to be invited to a gentleman's house to trouble shoot his CTC-16. He had built a basement full of spline roadbed and laid track on it but had not yet started on his scenery. But even in that state his layout was a thing of beauty with curves that flowed like none I had seen before or have seen since.
Jim
I have not used this method, but the club that I operate one two or three times a year used it. What you need is strips of homasote and sheetrock screws. If you used 5 strips, the two outside ones could be cut at the angle you want for the roadbed. Anyway once you get started one person can hold it in the shap that you want and the other person puts the screws in. It go real fast and if you make a mistake, just take the screws out and redo it. Well I can't get spell check to work tonight.
I also have seen laminated Homasote used for subroadbed. If I recall, there was an article about it in MR.
Here in the NYC area Homasote is greatly affected by humidity. A friend has a layout and he actually sealed all the wood so that it wouldn't be greatly affected by humidity. He switched from Homasote to building foam since it has more stability for roadbed.
One problem with Homasote is that it contains little tiny pieces of steel wool. This used to be a problem with brass engines that had open frame motors. The magnets could get clogged or the motors could short out with the steel shards if you weren't diligent about vacuuming. If you don't believe me run a piece of Homasote through a table saw. You'll see sparks.
i don't like homasote for the humidity reason. i have seen homasote expand enough to kink flex track out of alignment by more than an inch.
pine is alot more stable, and almost as easy to spike into. as a matter of fact, pine holds spikes much better than homasote. foam board i cannot use because i am handlaying my track and it doesn't hold spikes well.
I experimented and used 1/4" pressboard for my subroadbed. It holds track nails very well... didn't need a hammer. Just push gently and firmly. No problems so far. I may use 3/8" pressboard for my next layout. Just my two cents.
Regards,
Jonathan
That pressboard suggestion sounds very interesting Jonathan. I will have to check out our Lowe's and see what a piece of it weighs. Pressboard tends to be very heavy as anyone who has assembled cheaper office furniture can tell you.
Further up the thread there was some discussion about using casters on layout legs. It dawned on me that the Model Railroader folks did just that when they constructed their recent Beer Line. I checked out the MR website; but couldn't find any information directly related to their benchwork and leg supports (naturally I had already recycled those issues of MR).
One interesting feature of the Beer Line is the use of cabinet dowels to align the various sections of the layout. Since I am contemplating a layout that will measure 4'x 8', I am leaning toward constructing it in two sections. When (if?) we ever move, I could detach the sections, remove the legs, and not have to start yet another new layout. If you get the chance, and are an MR subscriber, check out the videos in the members section...lots of food for thought there.
Ray
My bench work is similar to residential framing. I used 2x4's spaced 24' on center. The assembly rests freely on a 2x6 beam system supported by 2x6 legs and 2x6 braces. The whole shebang is on 4" casters so I'm able to work the far side of my layout now and then via the "hallway" created when I roll it to the center of the room. Otherwise it rests against two walls.
I found an interesting video on benchwork construction on YouTube.com that is in several parts. Check out the first installment at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzGjQkv-s_0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzGjQkv-s_0)
I also found another video clip from
Green Frog Productions that showed a benchwork leg with a caster in place of the leveling screw that was shown in the clip above. As I see it, all one has to do is replace the leveling screw with an appropriately sized caster...piece of cake!
Craig - That must be some layout you have (2'x 6' beams, legs and braces...wow). I assumed you meant the 2'x 4' cross pieces were on 24
inch centers and not 24
foot centers? 'Glad the casters worked out for you...makes maintenance easier and I think that is the route I will follow myself.
Thanks for sharing,
Ray
i liked the idea of using dowell pins, and i use one pin to align my legs and support the layout while attatching the carriage bolts that secure them to the benchwork. i will also try them to hold sections of the layout in alignment.
previously i used carriage bolts alone to hold sections together, wasn't satisfied with their ability to keep things in the same alignment after taking the sections apart.
i then tused the tried and true loose pin hinges to hold sections together. they work very well. i also tried using 12" pieces of 1x4 as splice plates, this also worked well.
From index.mrmag.com:
Spline search:
http://www.index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=S&cmdtext=spline&MAG=ANY&output=3&sort=A
MR:
Easy spline roadbed
Model Railroader, March 2000 page 84
Free-flowing roadbed made by laminating Masonite strips
( "FUGATE, JOE", MASONITE, ROADBED, SPLINE, MR )
I like the pine lattice idea over ripping Masonite..
Tried a "roadbed" search also.
http://www.index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=S&cmdtext=roadbed&MAG=ANY&output=3&sort=A
Here's an NMRA bulletin:
Laminated Spline Roadbed Tips
NMRA Bulletin, April 1979 page 65
( "QUEYREL, LOUIS", ROADBED, SPLINE, BL )
A Schleicher book:
Benchwork and Lighting
The Model Railroading Handbook, Volume III Book icon page 168
Spline-style roadbed; energy-saving lighting systems; creating a horizon
( BACKDROP, BENCHWORK, LIGHTING, ROADBED, ROOM, SCENERY, "SCHLEICHER, ROBERT", SPLINE )
RMC:
Switch machine installation for spline roadbed
Railroad Model Craftsman, March 1982 page 82
( "GLAAB, JOHN", MACHINE, ROADBED, SPLINE, SWITCH, RMC )
Lattisote - turn Homasote into a solid, silent roadbed
Railroad Model Craftsman, March 1988 page 84
( HOMASOTE, "KUJAWA, ROGER", ROADBED, RMC )
GR:
Roadbed for Cold Climates
Garden Railways, November/December 1992 page 24
Splined subbase provides an inexpensive solution
( GARDEN, "MURPHY, KEVIN L.", OUTDOOR, ROADBED, SPLINE, G, GDN )
Westcott:
Roadbed construction
How to Build Model Railroad Benchwork, Second Edition Book icon page 45
Subroadbed; roadbed selection and installation
( BENCHWORK, ROADBED, SPLINE, "WESTCOTT, LINN" )
MRG:
No-Sweat Spline Roadbed
Model Railroading, June 2001 page 32
( HOMASOTE, "MITCHELL, WILLIAM", ROADBED, SPLINE, MRG )
PVC Spline Roadbed
Model Railroading, October 2004 page 39
( "HARMAN, BAMA", PVC, ROADBED, SPLINE, MRG )
RMJ:
Spline Benchwork Construction
Railmodel Journal, January 1998 page 15
( BENCHWORK, "NEALE, BILL", SPLINE, RMJ )
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Thanks everyone for the wonderful input. Joe, your index listing was excellent...thanks.
For myself, I have decided to use 1/2" birch plywood strips - laminated together to form the outer and cross bracing. Most of the top will consist of 1/4" luan ply with 1" Styrofoam glued on top. All wooden members will have polyurethane applied to lock out moisture. The layout dimensions will be 6'x 8'x 2' wide and will be arranged in an 'L' shape. The two sections (2'x 4' and 2'x 8') will be joined by dowels and clamped together. Electrical connections will join each section via plugs. All sections will be on casters and probably at a height of 48" - which allows clearance of most electrical switch plates AND allows storage beneath. In short, nothing will be attached to the walls. All track will be Peco units and switch machines.
I will construct the layout in this fashion, so that it can be easily dismantled (with a minimum of disturbance) - and then reinstalled in a future residence should we follow our plans to eventually move to the Southwest. Since neither I, nor my wife, desire homeownership in the future; therefore the layout could be set up in an apartment, rental home, or condo without damage to the walls (and subsequent violation of any lease restrictions).
Ray
Looking forward to photos!
R,
Jonathan
Quote from: CNE Runner on August 11, 2009, 05:55:27 PM
Craig - That must be some layout you have (2'x 6' beams, legs and braces...wow). I assumed you meant the 2'x 4' cross pieces were on 24 inch centers and not 24 foot centers? 'Glad the casters worked out for you...makes maintenance easier and I think that is the route I will follow myself.
Thanks for sharing,
Ray
Looks like you made the same mistake I did, Ray.
To clarify, the bench work is comprised of 2x4 framing lumber on 24 inch centers. The grid rests on a beam system built of 2x6 framing lumber . The grid is faced with 1/4 inch plywood that is laminated with 1 inch extruded foam. The foam thickness is augmented for inclines and rural areas.
OK Craig...gotcha! You benchwork sounds like it will be stout. I used Styrofoam on my last layout and liked having the option of carving in drainage ditches and other landscapes. Good luck with your layout.
Regards,
Ray