Hi folks
I feel that this is a dumb question but I do not know how to do this.
My son wants to model a logging industry and a coaling industry to our layout. I am doing some research on the web and know that there are books out there and I will probably buy them eventually. But this message board has always have given me great advice. My railroad is going to be mainly transition era with a modern flair. The modern flair is because I love the Amtrack engines a lot a want to run them as well. What we will do is run modern and then run Transition era separately.
Scale is HO
we are running on a DCC System.
Logging industry
What types of engines do I need?
What type of cars do I need?
What buildings do I need?
Coaling industry
What types of engines do I need?
What type of cars do I need?
What buildings do I need?
Thanks for not laughing at the question, and if you did thats okay.
Robert
I would suggest you goggle ho layout mining and logging images I would do a search for each, when I am running out of idea's I do this. don't stop at the first few result pages though, many ggod ideas are buried deep in searches.
JJ
JJ
That's I am doing now during my breaks from from working on my power point presentations for work. I consider it my reward. Thanks for you help.
There is a book on logging for about $20 I should buy. I have so many reference books and you can never have enough books for reference.
Robert
i grew up railfanning the coal roads in the east. here are my general impressions of the coal roads during the 1970s......
during this era, before unit trains became big, most mining operations were relatively small and easily modelled. most mines loaded only a few cars a day. tipple buildings were constructed to fit the location, and usually not well maintained. walthers new river mining represents a large mine tipple. at the other extreme were the "truck dumps" where coal was loaded directly into the cars from dump trucks via a ramp where the truck could back right up to the car. other operations dumped the coal on the ground and loaded it by front end loaders. on most mines there was either a winch to move cars, or the track was sloped and the cars moved by releasing the hand brakes.
small yards were scattered through the coal fields, from which mine runs would depart to serve the mines. these were short local freights which usually used 4 axle power, often first generation such as gp7s or gp9s. loaded cars would be assembled into coal trains which would often have six axle locomotives such as sd45s or sd40s. they could have whatever locomotives the railroads had, except switchers. coal was too heavy for most switcher types, so and sorting of cars was usually done by road type locomotives. cab type locomotives such as f7s were usually not used in the yards or on the mine runs due to poor visibility during backup moves.
cars were an odd assortment of whatever was on hand, from 55 ton 2 bay cars up to the then modern 100 ton cars. in some areas the mine run coal was taken to a coal prep plant to be cleaned and sized. often older 55 ton cars would be in captive service between the mines and the prep plant, with the larger 70 and 100 ton cars used to transport the processed coal to market.
Jeffery
That is some very nice information.
So there would be a coal mine and then it would go to the coal yard.
Do I need to add anything after a coal yard or would that be enough?
Thank you
Robert
With coal traffic, how and where the coal goes depends on what it's ultimate destination. In the modern era, coal was generally divided into three types: "Tide Coal" - coal meant for shipment overseas, which meant delivering to a major port; "Metallurgical Coal" - coal used primarily in the steel industry, most of which was converted to coke for the blast furnaces. The third was power plant coal. Coal could be loaded directly from the mine tipple, either as run-of-mine or it might be crushed and graded. Run-of-mine coal often went first to a coal processing plant where it was washed, crushed and graded then re-loaded for final shipment.
As for logging, ralroad logging in the woods was almost gone by the 1970's. What you usually had was a rail line from a central re-load point near the cutting area where the logs were brought in by truck or Cat and loaded on flat cars for the trip to the saw mill. At the mill, finished lumber would be shipped out in box cars or flat cars. Most of the old woods operations with geared locos were gone by the 1960's, at the latest.
at the local yard, the coal would be made up into trains by destination. it would often be weighed on a scale at that point, unless it was going to a prep plant. some railroads like conrail and b&o had weigh in motion scales enroute to the destination. these scales were usually located at points where a majority of coal trains would pass. on the above examples they were on the mainline between the coalfields and the east coast. in recent years conrail installed one at shire oaks, pa which is a major yard for trains going to and from the mines.
trains using the weigh in motion scale pull slowly across the scale track at about 5 mph i believe, while the cars are weighed. in yards which have a scale track, the yard crew would push each cut of loaded cars over the scale track before sorting them by destination. on those scales, locomotives were usually not permitted due to weight, and the scale tracks had a gantlet to bypass the scale. cars were thus pushed so that the yard engine would not have to cross the scale.
some industries which used coal were small enough to model, for example beehive coke ovens or a small power plant serving a university or hospital. other possible destinations for coal trains can be simulated by hidden staging tracks.
one final note: not all coal moved in dedicated coal trains. small shipments were moved in "blocks" and picked up by regular through freights.
For a small layout I would keep the coal and logging operation small. The logging operation could be near the mine. It would be a siding where trucks came to load two or three cars a day. I would use the small 2 bay hoppers. Another coal customer would be a local coal dealer. A small saw mill does not take up much room.
For transition era you would need some articulated steamers to run from the tipples to the yard where the trains going to either a port or a major customer were made up. In the early 1950s C&O used H-4s and 6s as mine run locos and H-8s to move out of the mountains. Then the train would have a K-3 or K-4 on the point. If you really want to be authentic, don't forget the mine head house and the company town! Coal dealers would be serviced by a local, not a unit train. C&O and N&W used unit coal trains way back to the '40s, probably earlier, and the other coal haulers probably did the same.
For logging, you need smaller locos - Mantua has a nice articulate, both with a tender and as a tank loco. Logging needs log cars. Check the Walther's catalog for ideas.
Gene
For a back woods logging operation in a small space, consider a fence post operation. In the winter of 1964/65 I worked in the woods of central Alberta next to one of these pint size logging outfits. It was an area of relatively new growth, with trees under 6" diameter, just the right size for posts for barbed wire fences in the south of the province. The loggers would work in teams of three - two men and a horse. One man would fell the trees, both men would limb them, and then the second man and the horse would drag several of the logs off to their camp. There were, I believe two such teams. I never saw their camp close up but I understand they had another fellow or two there who would cut the posts to length and stack them. The remaining fellow at the camp was both cook and camp attendant, the most important member of the crew.
In that camp, the crew would stack their cut posts until they had a truck load, then they would take them to town to await loading onto the one train a year. For modeling purposes, it would be better to eliminate the truck and stack the posts directly onto a flat or gondola. From time to time, a passing train could pick up a loaded car or two and drop off an empty or two.
I went a step further on my own layout and have the post camp at the end of a branch line. This branch line includes a switch back, which automatically limits train length to two cars plus a switcher. To further complicate things, there is a small mine between the switch back and the post camp. This means shuffling the mine's hoppers out of the way, via the switch back, before you can remove the loads and replace them with empties. Then you have to return the hoppers to the mine. This branch ends with a two car interchange track at the main. At this point in time, the track is in place and the scenery has been roughed in, but the loading platform at the post camp has not yet been built. However, we still use it for operating sessions. Surprisingly, nobody want to take that job. When they do, they usually start off feeling it is a nothing job compared to switching a town or running a through freight. They soon find out that they have to work quickly and accurately to keep up with the rest of the railway. If not, they start getting cars backed up and end up using the main for car storage. Now THAT is something that gets a road crew upset - popping out of a tunnel and finding a couple of cars blocking the main. As likely as not, those cars end up in the next town while the hogger on the branch is left scratching his head.
Anyway, this could be a solution where you just have to have a logging operation and there just isn't any room for it.
Jim
Thanks guys I appreciate the great input. may post this in the near future of what Engines, cars and buildings I am interested in. I have given up on being accurate to a certain era. There are too many things from different eras that we like.
So here is my story. A rich nostalgic business man wanted to start a logging company but he wanted to operate with a steam engine. Now the same guy also will also own the coaling company.
Gene
The main reason for the industries i wanted to do was because of the engines. I love them. Thank you for some great info. I copy and pasted it to save for my planning which my son and I are doing. No rush. I love to have fun, go to the Hobby Shop and spend time with my son.
Jim
As always I look forward to your input. I also copy and pasted the info for future reference. I think I have asked this but do you have any pictures?
Thank you
Robert
PS My 6yr old son is reading everything I am typing. He was curious to what I was doing. I told him and he wanted me to say thank you for the help and Hello.
Just in case - on the C&O a K-3 was a heavy Mikado - but not a USRA heavy Mike. The K-4 was a Kanawha, a 2-8-4.
All of the H's except for the 7 and 8 were 2-6-6-2s, all about the same size.
Gene
Gene
Thanks for the info. I am still learning my steam engines. I sat at the screen and said "H's" oh yes H Class. I have a few reference books and Web sites I use to help me learn about the engines.
Robert
Most people when they think of coal mining and lumber operations, think of mountains. This is true for mining in the eastern part of the U.S., and west coast for lumber. How ever much of the midwest is flat land mining as well as lumber. The east coast from New Jersey south is flat, however much of it is lumber country. Pulp wood and paper mills. Here in Oklahoma we have a lot of lumber and coal mining. Most of the coal mining is small operation with trucks bringing in the coal to be loaded into hopper cars. So you don't need big steam locomotives, unless you want them. There was a line in Missouri that used three 2-6-0s. Other lines used 2-8-0s.
RAM
I am looking for a small little operation for both. The B&O Railroad museum had a beautiful but small example of the lumber operation I wanted to do.
Thanks RAM
Robert
Great Thread !
Here in the mountains around Altoona, I have a client in the Portage/Munster area who mined coal by hand with his Father and brothers, ~40 inches high mine shafts dug by hand into the soft rock. They laid track, pushed in the coal car, dug coal by hand and then slipped on a sling arrangement, and on their hands and knees pulled out the loaded car, probably a two axle job. Not sure how much coal they could pull out thata way. But they made a living, and nicer people you would not meet anywhere. Give you the shirts off their backs !
This might be a very rustic two or three man operation to model, and perhaps it is for me !
Do you think a micro layout like CNERunner has would be adaptable ?
Jim B. or Jeff Ward, ever see an operation like this ?
Best Wishes,
Jack
Jack
That is an interesting story. I am curious on how much coal they pulled out.
Robert
I have never seen a coal mining operation like that but I have seen gold mining that was not a whole lot different. Up in the Yukon on the Klondike River just south of Dawson City they would dig a vertical shaft down to bedrock in the winter when the ground was frozen. They would do this by building fires and shovelling on alternate days. When they hit bedrock, they would follow its surface, digging tunnels just high enough to squeeze through and scrape as much paydirt from the top of the bedrock as they could. In spring when their mine flooded, they would work the paydirt to take out the gold flour, if there was any. Some years were good, other years the winters work was all for nothing.
That was the original mining method in 1900 or so. Later, they went through the same area with dredges. Later still, there were some small operations using cats in areas there the dredges couldn't go. But as late as the 1960's there were still some traditionall shaft and tunnel mining in areas where even the cats couldn't go.
It is amazing how far men will go for a bit of shiny metal of limited usefullness.
This type of small operation would be easy to model, even on a micro layout. We usually like to model summer so we could have a flowing stream with a bit of a dam to divert some of the water into a flume. The flume would lead to a sluice box with a miner or two shovelling paydirt into it from a pile of ordinary looking dirt near a hole in the ground, partially filled with water. Maybe a third man doing the final separation with a gold pan. And somewhere near by, a tent or two as their camp. This could probably all be squeezed into an H0 scene 3" x 6", particularly if the stream bed were steep so that the flume could be short. So what does this have to do with model railroading? Think Yukon and Whitepass.
Jim
Dear Robert,
I will try to get a "holt" of the man and find out how much coal they could mine in a day, a year, a lifetime !
Dear Jim,
Very interesting, on your end, too. I think I will do a micro layout with logging, mining and sluice operations, each one to represent a season !
Best Wishes,
Jack
Jack
That would be great!
Jim
Another great story.
Robert
Hi
The most obvious thing needed for a timber industry is a timber mill
and a means to get logs to the mill from the cutting area this could be rail dedicated road, Ariel rope way
I will assume its rail you want.
I would suggest a train of one 0-4-0 porter with home built tender two maybe three log cars a box car, water gin and a caboose all of which would be company owned.
The track run should be three times train length from mill yard throat
to the cutting camp entrance.
just a run around will do at the cutting camp don't forget a way of loading the log cars and the camp its self.
At the mill you need a log dump area, company store with siding hence the box car.
There may also be a bake house and butcher if the cutting area is not far from the mill if it is some distance away they may also have a cattle car
and stock race to load it as stock would be butchered at the camp..
Also loco stow road with fuel stack two foot long logs are ideal for this
water tank for loco water and ash pit, if its a profitable Major concern it will have a decent loco shed of a type suited to the weather conditions.
a workshop to repair machinery the trains and make stuff would also be at the mill site
A siding off the main line railroad to take product to the market is also needed what cars would be needed depends very much on the mill product
All in all quite an interesting addition to a layout with more to it than a lot of people realise.
Hope this makes some sense
regards John
John
Don't know about an "addition" to a layout. For many folk,this would be a layout in itself and even too much for some.
At the other extreme is something like a layout on the Exhibition circuit here in the UK which won a "best in show" award earlier this year. It is a shelf type layout with staging at one end, and portrays a semi permanent camp with store ,bunkhouses,dining hall/cookhouse and loco facilities. At the rear a track appears (from staging)from cutting site coming down via a switchback to the camp where another line (to staging) runs to mill and "elsewhere". A Shay or Climax runs log trains between top and bottom staging interspersed with trains from bottom staging to camp bringing in supplies. Seems to be enough to hold the attention of people including the operators.
Eric UK
Hi Eric
Yes addition log cars are not that big
Admitidly I might have got just a bit carried away, and created a branch line type addition to a layout
Having looked at the history of local wood lines and they just cut fire wood.
They had quite a network of lines and rollingstock I would never have associated with wood lines.
Exhibition layouts are a bit different to a home layout they have to hold the attention of the public and enjoyment is somewhat secondary to keeping the public entertained.
Where as a home layout is wholly and Solly for the enjoyment of the builder.
regards John