Anyone else dislike these new knuckle couplers as much as I do? ...Until about a year ago all my equipment was older and had horn hook couplers, also known as X2F couplers. When I started getting new locos and rolling stock it all had magnetic knuckle couplers which I discovered were not backward compatible with the old X2F couplers. I discovered that not all of my older locomotives could be easily converted to knuckle couplers without major surgery which I am not willing to do. Some of those old locos still run good but are out of production with no parts available so I don't want to take the chance of damaging them if a coupler conversion doesn't go well. I made up several transition cars out of cabooses so I could run the old locos with new rolling stock. I remember seeing trains on the Norfolk & Western in the 1960s with a caboose behind the locomotive used as a mail car so that would be historically accurate for the era that I model. ...After I started running the new knuckle coupler equipped hardware I discovered that the knuckles don't like grade changes or rough track. Also different brands of rolling stock won't always stay coupled. Long strings of cars come uncoupled almost constantly. Another big headache is the microscopic coil spring on the knuckle couplers. A derailment or a hard hit on the coupler will dislodge the spring and it will then spring away never to be seen again. Replacing those springs is almost impossible with my middle aged eyes so I have to replace the coupler to fix them. I experimented with the knuckle couplers to find out why they were causing me such a big reliability problem and discovered that a hard pull such as an upward grade or a long string of heavy freight cars will cause the coupler to travel vertically and slip out of the other coupler. The old X2F couplers have a shelf on the bottom of the coupler to limit vertical movement so it cannot slip out of the other coupler. That is why the X2F is a more reliable coupler that will stay together on grade changes, uneven track and will even stay coupled in a derailment. The X2F also has no coil spring to dislodge and render the coupler useless. The X2F will also couple on a curve while the knuckles will only couple on straight track. If I set up a layout with an overpass I will only use the old hardware with the X2F couplers if I want the train to stay together. I started looking at different couplers and discovered that Kadee made knuckle couplers with a lower shelf. They are the Kadee 118 and 119. They are both medium center set so they won't fit everything. The 118 uses a separate spring and the 119 has whisker springs. I got some of these and tested them. The lower shelf on the coupler limits vertical movement and keeps them together on less than perfectly level track. Recently I purchased an IHC 0-8-0 steam locomotive with a Magic Mate coupler. I noticed that it had a lower shelf built into it and no coil spring. The trip pin can be slid up and down to adjust for clearance instead of having to use special pliers to bend them. The majic mate coupler is a universal coupler so they will also work with the old X2F couplers as well as magnetic knuckle couplers. I got some majic mate couplers and installed them on several locos to test them. The magic mates are a medium center set style coupler only so they may not work on everything. On the test track the magic mates will hook up to both knuckle and X2F couplers and stay coupled as reliably as the X2F couplers. ...They still won't couple on an 18" curve, you have to push the cars to a straight section of track like standard knuckle couplers. The majic mates will couple to anything and don't have that tiny coil spring that can dislodge and cause a coupler failure so I will be replacing the standard couplers on my equipment with magic mates any time they fail.
i don't think you'll likr the magic mates any better than the knuckle couplers. as with the x2f, they tend to come uncoupled when backing up. the magic mates will also come uncoupled when there is slack in the couplers, making it almost impossible to doublehead your locomotives. if the lead one hesitates they will come uncoupled and the lead one will run away. your best bet by far would be the shelf type kadees. that and fixing the rough spots in your track will pay off. remember, knuckle couplers have been the de facto standard for at least 30 years before manufacturers started using them on equipment.
Jeff statements are true. Kadees are the standard now. Get their coupler height gauge to get them running good. Good track and well adjusted kadees work just fine.
Too bad the old Mantua loop couplers are no longer available. They were bullet proof & forgiving of bad trackwork. I use Kadee couplers & am very satisfied. You will have more trouble with the new "scale size" heads on less than perfect track. Sounds like you have more of a trackwork problem than a coupler problem. Jerry
Hellhound - With trepidation I will enter the fray regarding couplers. While I do have a fair number of rolling stock that are equipped with a mix of Kadees and Accurail; I find Bachmann EZmate Mark II to be the most reliable. The EZmates are made of a plastic material and, I am told, will uncouple/break under severe load such as very long trains. My trains usually consist of 10 - 15 cars; so stress problems aren't evident.
The key to reliable couplers is set up and maintenance. While attaching the coupler to the car, I always use a 'puff' or two of Kadee Grease-em powder (graphite) to provide lubrication (I am assuming you have assembled the coupler correctly with the tension spring over the coupler if Kadees). After this step, I use the Kadee coupler/pin height gauge and adjust the coupler/pin accordingly. Maintenance: once a year I again check the coupler/pin height as well as re-lubricating with a 'puff' of Grease-em. [I will also assume that the car is weighted correctly.]
The only problem, I have experienced with magnetic couplers, is that uncoupling magnets rarely work...or work too well. Use of the Rix uncoupling tool or the skewer method has served me well over the years.
Just my opinion,
Ray
Couplers always seem to be a topic of interesting points of view. The only X2f couplers left on my roster, are my grandfather's old rolling stock. He permanently glued together some coupler boxes, and they would have to be cut out to be replaced. I won't do it for sentimental reasons. I still run them, but uncoupling involves lifting the car off the track, so no yard operations for those cars. No big deal to me. I'm a runner, not a switcher.
My other stock has a mixture of Kadees, ProtoMax (Kadee copies) and EZMate Mark II's. The Accurails and other brands have proven unreliable for me as I DO tend to build long trains (over 15 cars). The tiny spring is only a problem if it has fallen out of the coupler before I bought it. I use a straight pin to reinstall the spring. It takes a few minutes of gentle persuasion to get the spring back into place. Then I "weather" the coupler with some flat brown paint (rust). The paint seems to hold the spring in place. Anyway, I haven't had any springs fall out while running on the layout (fingers crossed).
My permanent, under-the-track, Kadee magnet seems to uncouple cars very well. Admittedly, I don't use it that much.
There's my two cents. Regards,
Jonathan
Uncoupling spring replacement. I went crazy trying to insert new springs until I learned a very easy trick. If you are a guy, get your wife or girlfriend to thread a needle for you with a fairly long piece of thread. When a spring bounces out, take a new spring and the threaded needle. Put the needle through the spring length wise and pull so the needle is out of the spring and the thread runs through it. Makes sure that only one end of the thread stays in the spring. Then insert the spring into the coupler. If the spring bounces out, the thread makes it very easy to find as it does not go far. Since adopting this method I've lost no springs and found the coupler easier to respring.
Gene
jerryl: I just barely remember the old Mantua loop-hook couplers. The story with them was that in order to work well, you had to REALLY keep the couplers at the same height. Filing the edge of the loop to a near-knife edge was also recommended. The other part was that they were a really good coupler, but a not-so-great UN-coupler. Stories were told of trains that derailed and the entire train hit the floor because the couplers wouldn't uncouple by themselves.
Ebtnut, you are right about the mantua couplers. One takes all to the floor. Hellhound, Kadee makes couplers that are made to fit different company cars and locomotives, #5 are not a one size fit all.
Gene, I used the thread-through-the-spring trick in the old days when one had to assemble the trucks on Athearn cars. If you do drop a spring, you can use a flashlight lying parallel (and on) the floor. Using a sweeping motion, the flashlight beam will pick out all sorts of things...and hopefully your errant spring.
Ray
Hellbound, suggestion; don't use the scale size couplers, use the Kadee #148s or equivalent and Micro Mark makes a tool just for those springs. Saved me a world of headache and tonsils!
Gene, I too used the needle and thread approach until I found that neat little tool in Micro Mark. Besides it gave me a good excuse to buy another tool! lol
CNE runner, yep! Flashlights find all sorts of small parts that I have sent flying to who knows where!
Stephen
Well, I am going to start off with the following caveat.
I am no long term experienced expert.
Having said that, my belief is that the major problem with the new
couplers is the same problems we have with many things these days.
Poor quality control. Lack of uniform production standards and poor quality
control are the main cause of most of the problems. The new magnetic
couplers require both. They also require uniform track and track bed------
lots of luck. So as has been noted already. Check heights and clearances
and then recheck them. Sadly, I have found that from just using the
equipment, things get out of whack.
Kadee has very good quality control. Buy a Kadee high gauge, bend all gladhands up a bit, file off the paint on the shank, and you will have an excellent coupler.
Gene
May I offer a few tips and tricks for making sure your Kadee couplers fail. Don't ask how I learned these and I won't embarrass myself by telling you.
1) throw out the instructions. Who needs them.
2) don't bother Brinelling (polishing with pressure) the coupler shank and front lip of the centering spring.
3) put the centering spring under the shank.
4) use lots of glue putting the coupler box together. With enough glue, the shank will stay centered. Forever.
5) don't bother with Greasem graphite. It is only a ploy by Kadee to separate customers from their cash.
6) if you use a mounting screw, screw it down good and tight. Then if the glue doesn't keep the shank centered, the collapsed coupler box will.
7) don't bother with a coupler height gauge. Just another waste of money.
8] with no coupler height gauge, you don't have to mess around with truck washers, shims, and offset heads.
9) if the couplers don't line up good, just bend the shank.
10) if cheap trainset trucks let the end of the car slop back and forth, blame the coupler.
11) if the track has kinks, bends and is out of gauge, blame the couplers.
12) Kadee pliers are for wimps. Just bend the glad hands up. Way up. Then blame the magnets when you can't uncouple.
13) avoid spring picks at all costs. They are evil. Better to swear at fly away knuckle springs.
I like my list - you only have to do one or two of the things to guarantee failure. With other people's lists, you have to do all the things to guarantee success.
Jim
You left one out----don't put in the centering springs, and use them to make power pickups on tender trux.
Eric UK
...or a caboose!
Jim - I got a laugh at your 'suggestions' on couplers...especially the one where the centering spring was on the wrong side of the shank. I can't tell you how many cars we have taken in for sale that had complied with your 'suggestion'.
Another no-no is to completely weather couplers (don't ask how I know this...I'll plead the 5th). Weathering has the opposite effect of brinelling - the couplers become less 'slippery' and will cause all sorts of agita.
I thought Gene and Hawaiiho were also on target. Model trains are toys and are not designed for the stresses and strains of life in the real world. Track is never perfect (except on your layout) and cars are occasionally mishandled ('ever hit the bumper a little too hard at the end of a siding?). This hard use will take its toll - so the only incomplete answer is to: 1) install couplers correctly (in other words, do the opposite of Jim's suggestions) and 2) carry on a regular rigorous maintenance schedule on your track and rolling stock.
As an aside: I wonder what will come of MTH's 'uncouple anywhere' units? I would love to see what one of their couplers looks like (this is followed by: "I would love to be able to afford one of their products").
Ray
I'll add my (http://www.dakuda.com/smilies/2c.gif) as well.
Almost ALL the problems I've had with cars uncoupling by themselves was caused by the trackwork. Yes, sometimes the couplers will be at the wrong height , and sometimes there will be something wrong with the coupler, but like I said- it's usually from the track being liad poorly. Just spend some quality time with the track- you'll be glad you did.
Jiminy! When I read all you need to do to make knuckle couplers work correctly, it makes me even happier to stay with horn-hooks! :D
Jeff, old buddy, I remember when X2F couplers were all that was out there in hobby land. The magnetic coupler is a vast improvement over that abomination; however magnetic couplers aren't perfect. If one takes a little time to have decent trackwork (not perfect...decent) and assembles/adjusts/maintains the units they work just great. My Sweet Haven Harbor Ry. was built, stored, and run in an unheated/un-airconditioned garage. All rolling stock and locomotives were stored on shelves in the garage as well. In the 4 years I ran that pike, I had no problems with magnetic couplers (notice I said 'couplers' and not 'uncouplers'). I did take care in laying track and I guess that paid dividends in the end. The layout was dismantled because of electrically failing turnouts not from track or coupler problems (thankfully I discovered Peco products).
There is no way I would want to go back to the old hook-horn days!
Ray
Quote from: CNE Runner on October 07, 2009, 07:21:35 PM
Jeff, old buddy, I remember when X2F couplers were all that was out there in hobby land. The magnetic coupler is a vast improvement over that abomination.
There is no way I would want to go back to the old hook-horn days!
Ray
Seems to me, from what I've heard and read over the years, that horn-hooks are only an abomination if you're seriously into switching. All I ask of couplers is that they hold a running train together, and horn-hooks do that quite nicely. At any rate, I've never had a problem with horn-hooks doing that. I see no reason to retrofit 45 years worth of rolling stock with knuckle couplers--and I've even retrofit with horn-hooks some new pieces that came with knuckle couplers. :D
The air hose (trip pin) goes up, right?
RAM,
May I add that to my list? Except I like to put them down, even when the car is upside down.
Jim
What do you do if you cannot screw in securely the coupler box? Like on some gondola or flat cars, I glued it to the but how to secure the gearbox so it does not pop open? I did try trimming the screw so it hold the box securely closed.
I love my Kadee Couplers. Especially the whisker couplers. But they can be a challenge some times. I love using the red and gray washers. I have use them on the trucks and on the gear boxes. I will now try the grease though.
And does anyone else have a Freight car or two the has a Horn Hook on one end and a Kadee Coupler on the other? For those engines that either you can't or wont convert?
RAM I have put in a few upside down.
Jim could you elaborate on this. Does it really help? With picture?
"don't bother Brinelling (polishing with pressure) the coupler shank and front lip of the centering spring."
Robert
for those situations where a screw would stick up through the floor of the car and be noticeable you have several options.
1. use a shorter screw or trim your screw so that it is flush with the car floor. kadee makes a plastic screw that is good for trimming.
2. paint the protruding end of the screw the same colour as your car so that it doesn't stand out.
3. conceal the end of the screw inside a load.
the one thing i wouldn't do is glue the whole coupler box to the car. if you glue it, how will you change the coupler if it breaks?
At the risk of stirring things up some more, I will offer a few thoughts:
Hellbound, shelf couplers are not a cure for rough track. These are small scale models not Lionel toys.
The long list of "generic" knuckle couplers on the market are largely intended to provide a cheap universal coupler, not to provide the highest quality or performance.
The new "semi-scale" couplers, regardless of brand, have a number of drawbacks and limitations that are not being explained by their promoters. That is almost a topic in its self, but the short version is I would not recommend tem to the inexperianced or casual modeler.
The following is a copy of post I wrote years ago on this topic:
I will outline as simply as possible why all the generic knuckle couplers (EZ mate, Proto, McHenry, etc) are not as good as original Kadee couplers. But before I do, let me say that for their intended purpose of providing an inexpensive universal coupler for the North American Ready to Run Train Set market, these generic couplers are OK, not great, but OK. With trains of limited length (10-20 cars) on typical track work, they do work as well or better than the horn hook X2F that preceded them.
All of the generic knuckle couplers in question suffer from the following problems, some brands more than others regarding each problem.
The knuckles are larger than Kadee couplers allowing considerable more slack in the train. This becomes a serious problem as train lengths increase. This excess slack contributes to down hill uncoupling or emergency stop derailments and uncoupling. This also increases coupling distances between cars which is an appearance problem. As I will describe later, this is not the only part of these designs that increases slack, making matters even worse.
The pivot holes in these couplers are generally larger than Kadee so that too increases slack. In addition to problems of slack and sagging, this can work with the centering springs to tilt the coupler sideways, affecting it performance.
The shanks are thinner in the vertical dimension, combining with the loose fit of the pivot to allow the coupler to droop, or when under load, allowing it to work up and down causing uncoupling at vertical curves at the beginning of grades or uneven sections of track. This droop also results in the pulling faces not being parallel, contributing to the problem of one coupler working up over another, rather than sliding slightly on vertical curves.
The integral cast on springs require that the material used be soft and springy, this makes the knuckle too weak. This is why they fail on long trains, and may account for the loss of knuckle springs on those versions with separate knuckle springs.
All of the integral cast springs (centering or knuckle) are subject to fatigue when left in a loaded condition, this than causes failures when the train is moved.
Good coupler performance requires that slack be minimized, coupler shanks be parallel to the track, and coupler heights be precisely set - the generally sloppy and poor fit of these couplers in most of the existing coupler boxes on the market is the main cause of their poor performance with long trains.
Several others have commented about using Kadee couplers exclusively in the Kadee coupler boxes. While this does eliminate any problems of poor fit, it is only necessary in a few cases. Athearn cars for example can benefit greatly from the simple operation of squaring up the bends of the stamped metal covers and/or crimping the cover onto the box with a pair of pliers.
Properly installed Kadee couplers work flawlessly on good track work and for me there is no other choice.
Sheldon
Johnson Bar Jeff,
Back in the dark ages of the hobby when the X2F was just being invented, and Kadee couplers where expensive and not fully refined, many modelers not concerned with coupling and uncoupling, used scale dummy couplers.
They are vastly superior to anything on the market in simply keeping the train "connected".
Sheldon
Jward
Thank you for the advice I have used the plastic screws in the past but they strip to easily, so I trim a screw instead.
On the 2 or 3 that i decided to glue completely I do not use them very much. And if the coupler fails I will cross that bridge when I get there.
By the way how often do couplers fail to where they need to be replaced?
Robert
PS Good topic!
coupler failures vary widely depending on the brand. as was mentioned elsewhere, most of the plastic knuckle couplers are prone to failure. those with integral springs often have the spring fail. that coupler needs to be replaced. with the plastic knuckles, and sometimes with kadees too, the coupler head pops off if the car hits the floor. using too much pressure when adjusting trip pin height may also cause the head to pop off. all those couplers need to be replaced.
from my experience, kadees fail far less than other brands. but coupler failure is enough of a potential problem that i don't take the chance gluing the box shut.
Jward
Thanks I would love to post a few of my Coupler coversionss one day. Yampa Bob (who I hope is okay since I have not seen him here on the site for a long while) did a great post on this. I always wanted to do a little video on conversions and put it on youtube. However I am afraid of all of the purists that would critique every little mistake I made.
Sheldon
Great advice too.
Robert
we all make mistakes. you learn from them. don't worry about the purists. as long as your conversions work well you are ahead of the game.
i'd much rather do what i find works than follow what the purists say is the way to do things. a model that derails but looks good is of no use to me.
Jeffery,
Right on. On my LV&JRR H0 layout, the rule is: The layout will run well. In case of conflict between running well and looking good, the necessary compromises will favour good running over cosmetics.
Some photos as requested by Robert:
Brinelling a centering spring using a 3/32" drill shank. The spring is sitting on a scrap of hardwood plywood for firm support. Normally, I would be using a finger of the other hand to hold the spring in place but in this case, the other hand was busy with the camera. (a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing??) The front edge of the spring is usually rough from cutting and the roughness may interfere with centering the coupler.
(http://members.shaw.ca/RockRidgeRailway/brinell-spring-s.jpg)
This is a #5 coupler. The red arrow points to a mold mark with a slightly raised rim. If left as is, the raised edge can interfere with the coupler centering and when pulled down against the bottom of the coupler pocket, often will interfere with uncoupling, particularly delayed uncoupling. If you have problems with delayed uncoupling, the two most likely problems are roughness here and glad hands (trip pins) too high off the track.
(http://members.shaw.ca/RockRidgeRailway/mold-mark-s)
Brinelling the coupler shank with a 3/32" drill shank. By applying pressure, the hard drill shank will force the rim of the mold mark down. A bit of Greasem graphite makes this operation a bit easier. Again the other hand would be holding the head of the coupler if it wasn't busy with the camera. (I've just got to teach my dogs to use a digital camera.)
(http://members.shaw.ca/RockRidgeRailway/brinell-shank-s)
I like to lightly cement the halves of the coupler pockets together. The brush in the photo is not soaking wet!! I brushed it on the rim of the liquid cement bottle half a dozen times before quickly running it over the joint. This prevents any liquid cement from wicking into the pocket and gumming up the spring. Done properly, it allows the coupler pocket to be popped open if necessary. Note the long #2-56 machine screw holding the coupler together. This allows inspection of the coupler including how well it centers before cement is applied and guarantees the parts will not shift while the cement is drying. I find the little extra effort well worth while.
(http://members.shaw.ca/RockRidgeRailway/cement-pocket-s.jpg)
As far as I am concerned, a coupler height gauge is an absolute must. But there is a right way and a wrong way of looking at it. This high angle look-see is about useless for checking coupler height (but it shows off the tender and gauge nicely.)
(http://members.shaw.ca/RockRidgeRailway/check-coupler-not-s)
Looking horizontally across the couplers is a much more accurate way to see if they align vertically. This custom gauge does not have the platform for adjusting the glad hand so I use my NMRA track and wheel gauge. When the coupler head is gently pressed down, the glad hand should just clear the track and wheel gauge laid flat across the rails.
(http://members.shaw.ca/RockRidgeRailway/check-coupler-s)
I hope these images don't slow anybody's downloading too much. My calculator indicates about 20 seconds at 1440 baud but I don't know how accurate it is.
Jim
Jward
Thanks for the kind words. I love to do the conversions!
Jim
Thanks for the great photo's. And for clarifying what Brinelling a centering spring and coupler was. Now I know why a few of my conversions are sticking.
Oh man I forgot to get the Greasem graphite today. Oh well I guess i will have to go back tomorrow. ;)
Let me add to what Sheldon wrote about being back in the dark ages of the hobby when the X2F was just being invented. Many companies tried to make automatic couplers. Some worked fairly well. One that look good but did not work well was MDC. It worked like the prototype. Nothing, not even Kadee's worded well. Shortly before the XEF came out Kadee redesigned it coupler with a model that worked quite well. They have had at least two major design changes since then and today they are great. Is there room to improve. Yes. I am sure in the years to come you will see more improvements.
Good Morning All,
Jim Banner, at first you almost had me. I thought you had lost your mind. That is what happens when I get up too early in the morning and the brain is not totally functioning before reading anything. Thanks for starting off my day with a good laugh.
Now to the problem at hand. My first thought is about trackwork. If you are waiting for someone to produce a coupler that will stay together over bad track, forget about it. Fix the darn track. Now I realize that you cannot always have perfectly flat track, but you do not need it. With knuckle type couplers, the most important tool is the coupler height gauge. With your couplers at an even height, 99% of your problems should be solved Over the past fifty years I have been in this hobby, I have used knuckle couplers for about 35 years. I must be the luckiest guy because I rarely, and I mean maybe 10 times a year if that, do I have couplers disconnecting. This is absolutely, no exaggeration! I use Kadee regular sized and scale sized on my HO railroad with no problems. I use the Bachmann EZ Mate II couplers on my On30 railroad and in over 10 years, I have had one, just one coupler break and that was because I was not paying attention and whacked into the car to hard at the end of a stub siding.
The problem with the plastic knuckle couplers disconnecting is usually because one is using the original style that employs a plastic "cat's whisker" to keep the knuckle closed instead of the coild spring. This easily can be misshapened and then the knuckle will open and stay open until manully closed.
One thing you can do if you have the metal couplers is to take a tiny drop of acc cement and put it on one end of the spring, preferrably the end attached to the shank, not the hinged knuckle.
So, fix your track, get a height gauge and have fun.
Good Morning : to Jim Banner: If your digital camera has a threaded hole on the bottom you can install a small tabletop tripod. You can then trigger the camera by using the timer function . This allows the use of both hands for other functions. John II
Jim:
Thanks a million! You are the first person to describe and photograph brinelling well enough that my simple mind could understand. Can't begin to explain all the gyrations I was going through to accomplish the task, without popping the spring loose from the coupler, or denting the centering spring. Well done, sir!
Regards,
Jonathan
[
Oh man I forgot to get the Greasem graphite today. Oh well I guess i will have to go back tomorrow. ;)
[/quote]
You can also use a lock lubricant at a hardware store where they make keys if you can't get Greasem.
Thanks Woody I just love having an excuse to go back to the Hobby Shop. Any excuse is a good excuse.
Robert
I guess I'll have to get up even earlier to fool Bob. ;)
Thanks JohnII. I just complained about the lack of a remote control for the camera - never thought of the self timer. Sort of like cursing the darkness instead of lighting a candle. I guess you can teach old dogs (me) new tricks, even if I can't teach my old dogs anything, except to come to dinner.
Robert and Johnathan, if I was able to help you, it was thanks to a modeller who showed me how many years ago.
Jim
Jim
And one day I hope to be able to pass it on too. Well I am guess I am, with my son.
Robert