Hi all.
I have a problem with a Bachmann Spectrum 2-6-6-2 with DCC and sound that I bought in June from Micro-Mark. It surges going down hill on any grade that has any slope, lunging 11/2" on 3% to small surges on 1.1%. There so much slop in the gear train that the decoder can not keep the loco at a constant speed. I talked to two people at Bachmann. The tech told me there was probably no point in sending it back, not sure what they could do with it. I have forgotten the name but a man that said he was the designer and engineer had already told me to oil the drive train and clean the wheels. Which I did. This is a brand new engine. Someone on this forum told me to take it apart and shim the worm gear. Getting to the worm gear looks like a complete disassemble. I don't think I should have to do that to a new engine.
All in all I feel I got screw**.
My rant, I hope it helps someone else.
Lee
Well thats a strange reply from Bachmann,If it were me I'd call back and ask to speak with bridget in the service dept. no idea who you spoke with but normally they simply replace the locomotive in question with a new one. be sure you have documentation to back up your request.
His problem is that a new locomotive will not correct the problem, because all of the Bachmann 2-6-6-2s have the problem he was speaking of...so he sends it in what good will that do except put him out the shipping costs, because the new one he gets will have the exact same problem due to how it was built.
I was about to purchase the 2-6-6-2 with sound when I came across this posting. The engine runs fine on DC but surges on inclines when running on DCC.
Is there a problem with the 2-6-6-2 if equpped with sound surging when running on incllines?
Does anyone have the 2-6-6-2 with the sound board and is running the engine on DCC able to add any information.
Yankeefryer,
You have been given good advice. Make sure sure the worm and pinion are well lubricated with a good, plastic compatible gear oil. Using just any old oil here just won't do. If you have used an oil not designed specifically for gears, clean it all off and relubricate with a gear oil such as Labelle #102. Repeat every 5 running hours or so, at least during break in. I hate to say this, but if you are not able to get to the worm and pinion gears to lubricate them, then you are probably not yet ready to be running steam locomotives. Just like in the real world, model steam locomotives require more care and maintenance than diesels. And lubricating the worm and pinion is part of the required regular maintenance.
When you say DCC and sound, is the decoder a Tsunami installed by Bachmann or some other decoder installed by Micro-Mark or someone else? The Bachmann Tsunami decoder has BEMF control which can usually take care of a surging problem if adjusted correctly and the gears are not binding badly. Other decoders may or may not have BEMF control. If you have a Tsunami, it might be a good idea to do a program reset or to manually check the motor control CV's to make sure that BEMF control is turned on. If this does not help, try making some changes to the settings, a bit at a time. The full manual for the Tsunami has more information on this (the Bachmann manual might also.) Both are available on the Soundtraxx website.
I am assuming that you are aware that all worm gear drives are subject to surging and vary only in the extent. However, I am not sure what 11/2" means - is it 11-1/2" or 5-1/2" or 1-1/2" or what? If the first or second, then I would suspect you have a very heavy train behind the locomotive and are probably skidding the wheels, Neither of these are conducive to a satisfactory break in. If it is 1-1/2", then it is similar to what many of the high price brass locomotives do. Proper break in and decoder adjustment will not remove down grade surging completely (nothing will) but should make it less severe and far less obvious.
The only alternate suggestion I have is to run your locomotive only on grades that have no slope.
Jim
Pacific Northern,
That is a very interesting piece of information and I wonder if Yankeeflyer's runs better on dc than DCC too. The implication is that your 2-6-6-2 has no mechanical problems but the problem is with the DCC. That immediately suggests a miss setting of the motor control CV's. A quick test would be to turn the BEMF control off and see what happens. As my own 2-6-6-2 has a non-sound, non-BEMF decoder, I cannot do that test myself.
Jim
Hey guys
This decoder is DSD steam OEM put in the loco by Bachmann, I take that to mean it is unique to Bachmann. Loco is # 84010
As far as I can tell it does not have BEMF. I'm using Decoder Pro with my NCE Power Cab and I have printed the manual for DSD series decoders.
The loco probably doesn't have an hour or two of time in use.
I'm reluctant to run it because the jerking has to be hard on the drive train.
The wheels will turn almost a quarter turn if you picket it up and roll the wheels, both trucks. My other Bachmann steam locos (2-8-0 con and 4-8-2 heavy mountain) have almost no slop in the drive train. I pulled the sand dome and found one screw but the exploded parts view doesn't help dissembling very much.
I'm unhappy camper.
In OP, one and a half inches on 3% grade it appears and surging on lesser grades.
Thanks everyone.
Feel free to chime in with any ideas.
Lee
There was a version with a DSD decoder that did not have BEMF and could not run on dc. Sorry.
Jim
Quote from: Jim Banner on October 20, 2009, 09:55:29 PM
There was a version with a DSD decoder that did not have BEMF and could not run on dc. Sorry.
Jim
i would like to jump in.
the dsd-lc decoders soundtraxx useto sell were never in the bachmann locos to my knowledge.
soundtraxx now puts a tsunmai sound decoder in the bachmann locomotives and i see it referred to on the soundtraxx site as a dsd decoder, d igital s ound d ecoder.
it has the tsunmai technology which includes hyperdrive, aka bemf. i just looked at the manuals for bachmann sound locos at the soundtraxx site.
the manual says hyperdrive.
i have seen this same discussion in another forums a couple months ago but a different loco.
here is the manuls
http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/Bachmann%20Quick%20Start%20Guide.pdf
http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/OEM%20Steam%20Users%20Guide.pdf step 9 setting up the hyperdrive (bemf) is mentioned twice
lex
everybody remember, hyperdrive is bemf. save this page to your favorite folder. you might need it sometime
I think jim has a good idea about playing with the BEMF setting. One of my Bachmann locos with the factory Tsunami would surge and simply adjusting the BEMF settings solved the issue. My loco would buck forward under load. A few settings later it pulled smooth. Hopefully this is all you need to do? if its not the BEMF it likely is a mechinacal drivetrain issue...
Quote from: Jim Banner on October 20, 2009, 07:04:14 PM
Pacific Northern,
That is a very interesting piece of information and I wonder if Yankeeflyer's runs better on dc than DCC too. The implication is that your 2-6-6-2 has no mechanical problems but the problem is with the DCC. That immediately suggests a miss setting of the motor control CV's. A quick test would be to turn the BEMF control off and see what happens. As my own 2-6-6-2 has a non-sound, non-BEMF decoder, I cannot do that test myself.
Jim
Jim
Your 2-6-6-2 running on DCC does not surge on inclines with a heavy load?
Lee, I have three Spectrum 2-6-6-2 locos, they all have lots of play in the drive line, they all run fine on DC (I don't use or have DCC). They pull heavy trains up grade, they don't surge down grade or any other time.
I did have to return one that had a bind in the driveline. That created a surge at specific speeds, grade or no, with or without load. The replacement they sent was fine. Based on my experiance with a number of these locos, the play in the driveline is not the cause.
I feel you hve a decoder problem or a bad loco. If you will not let Bachmann replace it, or you do not test it without DCC, you may never know. Poorly responsive BEMF is a likely cause.
Sheldon
Quote from: lexon on October 20, 2009, 10:25:10 PM
the dsd-lc decoders soundtraxx useto sell were never in the bachmann locos to my knowledge.
soundtraxx now puts a tsunmai sound decoder in the bachmann locomotives and i see it referred to on the soundtraxx site as a dsd decoder, d igital s ound d ecoder.
it has the tsunmai technology which includes hyperdrive, aka bemf. i just looked at the manuals for bachmann sound locos at the soundtraxx site.
the manual says hyperdrive.
i have seen this same discussion in another forums a couple months ago but a different loco.
here is the manuls
http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/Bachmann%20Quick%20Start%20Guide.pdf
http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/OEM%20Steam%20Users%20Guide.pdf step 9 setting up the hyperdrive (bemf) is mentioned twice
lex
everybody remember, hyperdrive is bemf. save this page to your favorite folder. you might need it sometime
Lex,If you go to the menu at left and click on "Products," then search 2-6-6-2, the first two that come up are C&O 2-6-6-2's in H0. Like the painted/undecorated 2-6-6-2 that Yankeeflyer bought from Miro-Mark, they have the earlier, pre-Bachmann/Tsunami technology decoder which did not have BEMF control (which is one part of Hyperdrive.) When Yankeeflyer says his has a DSD series decoder, I see no reason to doubt him.
After reading the descriptions of the C&O 2-6-6-2's, read also the next description which is of a 2-6-6-2 with a Bachmann/Tsunami technology decoder and note the differences.
When you read the
Quick Start Guide For Bachmann DCC Sound-Equipped Locomotives Featuring Tsunami DCC Sound Technology by SoundTraxx,your first link, you will find that the term DSD does not appear. And when you read the
Tsunami Digital Sound Decoder OEM Steam Sound User's Guide, your second link, you will notice that they use DSD to simply refer to "Digital Sound Decoder," not to the DSD series of decoders in general or the DSD-101LC specifically. The decoder explained in these two manuals does indeed have BEMF control which is not surprising as it is basically the Tsunami decoder.
When you have finished the manuals, you might try Googling DSD-101LC and looking at the number of suppliers who are still offering them for sale.
Yankeeflyer,There is a very simple test that you may be willing to do for us to determine whether your decoder is a Tsunami or a DSD series decoder, possibly a DSD-101LC. And that is to attempt to run your locomotive on dc. The Tsunami decoder includes analogue conversion and will run on dc. The earlier DSD series decoders did not include analogue conversion and so will not run on d.c. Putting your locomotive on a dc track will not harm it, no matter which decoder it has.
Pacific Northern,The loads I pull down hill are no heavier than the locomotive can pull up hill. The ruling grades in both directions around my layout are equal. Mine has a Digitrax non-sound decoder in it and no, it does not surge badly. It is presently out on loan but I will see if I can get it back this coming weekend and test it again.
Jim
Hi ;D
BY GEORGE I THINK WE HAVE SOMETHING.
I don't have DC available but when I have Decoder Pro read the decoder it says analog is NOT available. If this decoder has it's own manual I will read that, it may help.
I sure appreciate all help.
Lee
Lee,
Thank you for that key piece of information. That is even more helpful than trying to run your locomotive on dc.
As far as the manuals are concerned, I think you will find that the LC Series Owner's Manual 2.0 and the LC Series Technical Reference which can be found in the "Current Products" list on the Soundtraxx Manuals page will be right on or at least close enough for your decoder. The Soundtraxx Manuals page is at this link:
http://www.soundtraxx.com/index.php?p=manuals.php (http://www.soundtraxx.com/index.php?p=manuals.php)
I am wondering at this point whether problems like you are having are the reasons that Bachmann upgraded to the Tsunami technology decoder. I know that doesn't help you a whole lot at the moment, but if may lead to a solution. I will try to get my 2-6-6-2 back this weekend to run some tests with surging in mind. I feel your disappointment and would be happy if we could come up with a solution.
Jim
Jim
And all that answered.
I went to the Tsunami and there is an OEM steam sound user's guide. Downloaded manual and been trying different settings for Hyperdrive, back EMF on, off and different settings ETC. I have run loco for some time, changing CVs that the manual suggests on the fly. I'm running loco with no cars. I get changes but nothing that helps the loco going down grade at throttle settings 5 or below. At throttle one or two it lunges about one to one and a half inches at a time.
I really wanted this articulated, but I have to think it is a bad design. My other Bachmann Spectrum work great. If I understand correctly this #84010 2-6-6-2 is not the same as the 2-6-6-2 that is being sold now or will be out soon.
I'm thinking about going back to Bachmann to see if they will trade me something of equal value. ???
Lee
It cannot hurt to try. The worst they can do is say no.
Jim
I have a medium steamer dsd 101lc in my Bachmann consolation. The lc stands for low cost. It is not a tsunami but on the soundtraxx page it is listed at the bottom under and separated from the tsunami decoders. It is a pretty good decoder in my estimate but not as loud as a QSI or tsunami unit.
PD,
I agree. A friend has one and the sound is great but a little weak. But then again, my ears are not as sensitive as they used to be. I looked at them at Tony's and they are just over half the price of a Tsunami. I have the idea that I would like to install one of them and an amplifier in a large scale locomotive and blow the neighbour's cat off my fence. I had thought of using a Digitrax Sound Bug, but then came up with the idea of using the motor output of the DSD-LC to make the engineer turn and look backwards when backing up. (Somebody has too much time on his hands.)
Question about the DSD-101LC in your consolidation - was that an after market installation or did it come that way from Bachmann?
Jim
I bought the dsd 101lc from gadget tom's and installed myself. The speaker is in the coal bunker and I squeezed the decoder in below it. Are they using this unit and marketing it as a tsunami?
"I really wanted this articulated, but I have to think it is a bad design. My other Bachmann Spectrum work great. If I understand correctly this #84010 2-6-6-2 is not the same as the 2-6-6-2 that is being sold now or will be out soon."
Lee, how can the design be bad when so many of us have these locos and they run fine?
The new one comming out soon is cosmeticly different, but except for decoders, sound decoders or the lack of them, all Spectrum 2-6-6-2's are mechanically the same.
If your loco does have a mechanical problem, it is just that, a production defect, not a design flaw.
Sheldon
I don't know if the C&O H-4 is avaiable yet, but it might be good to indicate WHICH 2-6-6-2 this is - the C&O H-4 or the USRA light Mallet, 2-6-6-2.
Gene
i did a bunch of looking around. from what i can see bachmann has always had the tsunami in their steamers. and it always had hyperdrive bemf. the big difference has been less sounds than the tsunami you buy and install.
a friend contacted an online dealer of the soundtraxx decoders and the contact said what i put above.
the bach man could solve this mystery buthas been very silent. strange.
lex
Just to confuse the issue even further, some of the larger decoder installers have kept a small stock of popular conversions on hand. Tony's comes to mind. I suppose this helps even out the workload for those doing the actual installations.
Jim
My Bachmann 2-6-6-2 is # 84010 painted but unlettered. There is one on Walthers site #84010 that is unlettered and looks like mine. Could be a new run.
I have used every possible combinations of CVs that the manual suggests and it has no effect on my downgrade surging problem.
I have been trying all day to get through to Tom or Mr. Riley no luck so far.
Returning it seems to be the answer but what do I get in return, same problem??
Ok guys need a little sympathy here ;D
Lee
Lee, I have over 30 Bachmann Spectrum steam locos. Over the 10 or so years that I have purchaced them, I have had to return two of them. The replacements where fine, ran perfectly.
Why do you seem to not accept the fact that the one you have might be a dud, but that many, many others, possibly from that same production run, could be just fine?
No offense intended, but its seems to show a lack of understanding on mechanical devices. All it takes is one damaged part during assembly, one driver that is out of quarter, one slighly bent axle undetectable with the eye, one slighly warped casting, and that ONE loco is now a dud that won't run right.
While the 300 made before it and the 300 made after it are just fine.
I will admit that this kind of quality control issue has been a problem at Bachmann, BUT, they always make it good with replacement locos.
I will repeat, I have three of the locos in question, they all run fine. One actually is a replacement sent by Bachmann for one that did not run fine out of the box.
You said you have Spectrum heavy Mountains, so do I, seven of them in fact. One of those had to be replaced, that did not stop me from buying more. All the rest have been fine.
Also again, all of my Spectrum 2-6-6-2's have lots of play in the drive line, as do all the ones owned by my friends in our local group. That has no effect on their performance. That is not the cause of the problem.
So maybe you do have a dud, sent it in and get your free replacement.
Sheldon
I have to totally agree with Sheldon. Had you said that you took the loco and bashed it into a Santa Fe, I would understand - other than doing the bashing before the running in...
Gene
Sheldon
Good morning
Just one more question and I'll let Bachmann replace the loco.
Do you have grades on your layout? and what percent? sorry that's two questions. ;D
I was at my train club last night and they did say that others had complained of my problem also.
Thanks to all for the help.
Lee
p.s. If you run DC and no grades I could see were one wouldn't have the surging.
Lee,
I have grades of about 2% max and have never experianced this problem, with my Spectrum 2-6-6-2's or any other loco.
I do run DC, using Aristo Craft Train Engineer radio throttles. I run long trains of thirty to fifty cars and often double head my 2-6-6-2's or run one Spectrum 2-6-6-2 double headed with a Proto 2-8-8-2 (yes this works fine in DC, dispite what David M Bedard has to say).
I know other with these locos and grades who use DCC, they have never commented about any problems.
Sheldon
Lee,
One more thought about your problem. You said in your last post members of your club had complained of the same or similar issues? Is the club all DCC?
I have not seen inside the tender of a DCC with sound version.
In any case, if it came with jumpers to completely bypass the decoder, I would do that and find some way to test it on DC.
I know you have ajusted and re ajusted the CV's, but it may be an "unfixable" decoder problem.
As is clear to you by now, I am a Bachmann fan, but I have heard from many in DCC that their decoders are sort of "budget".
I have personally found the the built in decoders in the GE70T diesel will not run on the pluse width DC signal of my Train Engineer throttles for example.
Running the loco on DC would confirm a mechanical vs decoder probem.
Not to knock DCC, but DC is still the pure test of the mechanical sapects of a loco.
Sheldon
A follow up to this posting would be nice.
I would like to know if the problem was isolated as to a defect in the decoder or is it a problem with the gears in this engine.
Hopefully, the problem is not representative of the Spectrum Mallet, I would like to upgrade a couple of these to DCC on day.
My 2-6-6-2 should be at Bachman by Monday 11/2. I hope Tom calls me soon after that . I'll report back when I get the loco back and try it out.
I may not be seeing the details of the way these models work, but I don't see how the decoder can keep a constant speed when going down grade the weight pushes the engine, decoder backs off,train stops, decoder applies power, train pushes, etc. Movement is in one to one and a half inches at a time. I'll wait until I can check out a new engine for final judgment.
Lee