Hi,
I have seen layouts made on foam board and they "glue" the track down.
Firstly, it would seem that the glue might not be strong enough to hold it and secondly how do you keep the track in position until the glue cures? I would guess some sort of 'pinning' would help it stay.
I am looking for advice and glue that you folks use that is tried and true. I would rather learn from someones knowledge and mistakes than learn the hard way! ;D
Thanks,
Bruce
Hello Bruce,
There are no stupid questions ;)
Track can be glued down by using dabs of "white" glue along the line. "Woodglue".
This type of glue is water soluble. After the glue dried it can be 'wetted' again to make changes afterwards, even after a couple of years. Wetted: use water with a drop of detergent in it.
Sure you use pins, weights etc. to keep the track down when the glue is drying.
I also use diluted 'wetted' white glue to ballast the track.
John Baron
Netherlands
I sort of cheated with my last layout. I used Kato Unitrack. Laid it all down on the layout table and did not glue anything down until entire track down to the last joiner, tie and wire is 100% satisfactory.
Then I used thin sheets of woodland scenic foam (1/4 inch to 1/2 inch) on either side of the trackage to "Bury" the high ballast profile a bit deeper and to provide a mechanical wedge to hold the track in place but allow it to "Float" in the Southern Hots and Colds.
I use Peco track now for On30 and I plan to be gluing those down to the woodland scenics road bed by means of a hot glue. A dab out of the gun will do ya. Will it work? I dont know.
A friend of mine glued his flex track in HO scale to cork and sadly temperature changes wiped him out. Turned that nice mainline into a hell ride of buckled track.
In the past I have spiked Flextrack and switches to cork AFTER nailing cork to the wood below. NEVER a failure... not in 60+ years or more that my family has been involved with model trains for fun.
This actually is a great question.
Since I use 2" foam as my subroadbed, I glue down my roadbed with Elmer's glue and hold it in place with stickpins. When the roadbed has dried, I pull out the stickpins. I then lay down a small bead of Elmer's glue on the roadbed, making sure I leave areas under switches stay free of glue. Then I lay the track down and hold it in place with stickpins until it dries.
The beauty of this is I can fix or change my track later by freeing it up with a small putty knife. Your results may vary, but it works for me.
Thanks everyone!
There appears to be so many ways to skin the proverbial 'cat'.
My question arose after watching this video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijVkuhCYIIM
I haven't been in model railroading for many years and am just getting back into it. I don't ever remember foam insulation board being used as a base... perhaps I'm dating myself? ???
I am interested in building a micro layout approx 2'x4' in size and have watched these videos for inspiration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEGN5TlZueU
http://www.youtube.com/user/bignallb#p/a/f/0/q47BgtGhWGk
Anyways, that is roughly what I'm thinking of right now.
Thanks,
Bruce
BKJ, this is the place to learn stuff. I ask questions all of the time.
The great thing about On30 is just how much action you can have in a small space. Check out the latest On30 Annual from Carstens for some great ideas and welcome aboard!
You might consider using Elmores School Glue instesd of regular Elmores glue. The School glue goes down the same(50/50) but it is not water proof when dry like regular Elmores glue. If you need to take something up, all you need to do is wet it down, let soak and it comes loose again. It works especially well on ballast becuse it makes it easy to change track arrangements. School Glue drys the same and holds as well as regular Elmores glue. I do not recommend "Wood Glue"...that stuff is water proof when dry and is nearly impossible to take up without wrecking things. The 2" thick poly sheet makes a nice base for a small layout all by itself, as it is quite rigid in the smaller size you mention. They come in 4x8 ft sheets, so you would have plenty material left over to build scenery, or perhaps a second layout.
Since we are on the subject and that's next for
me to tackle, how do you make the changes in track elevation using foam?
I know how you feel, BKJ. I date back to the time when the only way anyone built a layout was plywood and studs, cork and nails, straight out of the Atlas track plan books. So I built a test layout, to see how the new techniques would work. The base was 2" pink foam, and the track was some Atlas code 83 flex that I had around. Curves were an insane 6" radius, and I wanted to see if the flex track would hold that curve with nothing but glue. And it worked great, and is still in place almost 2 years later. Oddly enough, this was the first layout that I completed 100%.
One thing that I did was to glue the track down, pin it down with temporary pins, and then sprinkle ballast and dirt onto the wet glue, so I had the first layer of ballast in place from the start. Worked really well.
Best Wishes...
Manager
I've been thinking about an elevated branch line and will probably use Woodland Scenics risers. Check out their website, because they have a whole system. It's for HO, but we On30 folks tend to use it anyway. ;)
Thanks Manager and everyone else.
I was kind of dumbfounded that glue would actually hold a tight radius... just didn't seem logical to me! With that said, a wood glue joint done properly will hold and will break at another point so why wouldn't glue hold it down.
Manager,
What type of glue do you use? Do you use the school glue so it can be re-wetted and moved if needed? Did you use a plywood base for your foam?
Thanks again all,
Bruce
I use plain old elmer's white glue. I use stickpins to hold the track where I want it.
It works and it's cheap.
It's kindof embarrassing, but I can't recall exactly what sort of glue I used. Might have been an old bottle of Elmer's white that had gotten a bit goopy. Keep in mind, Atlas HO flex is pretty loose where the rail and ties meet, so it doesn't hold a curve, and tends to straighten out, so bending it down to 6" radius produced lots of stress, but the first layer of glue held fine. Subsequent layers of dirt and rocks and ballast were held down with diluted matte medium, since it dries with a flat finish, unlike Elmer's, which has a sheen when it dries. I only use Elmer's for areas that will be covered up by other layers, and matte medium or Woodland Scenics Scenery Glue for the upper layers.
No plywood, but this test layout was only 32"x18", and I wanted to avoid using any organic material. For a larger layout, some sort of structure might be needed, like a traditional wood base.
I had the idea that it would be fun to build another one, but video the process this time.
manager
Manager,
I think it would be great to have a photographic album of the process. No one ever believes the work that goes into something.
I have restored vintage woodworking machinery and photographed the process. It is great to go back and see the results.
Here is an album
http://s34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/bjohns01/Northfield%20Band%20Saw%20Restoration/?start=all
It would be informative if you or someone else did it. It helps the newbies like myself!
Bruce
Quote from: ChrisS on December 14, 2009, 11:36:55 PM
Since we are on the subject and that's next for
me to tackle, how do you make the changes in track elevation using foam?
As mentioned, the Woodland Scenics graduated inclines work well with any scale up to S. A cheaper method is the old tried and true "cookie cutter" method....it works as well on foam as plywood.
Just my two cents worth, the last time I "glued" track was N scale Kato unitrack (not much different, in theory, from Bachmann EZ-track).
I have not seen anyone refer to alcohol in this thread. I'm sure others may not agree, but I would water down elmer's glue and add rubbing alcohol in about equal parts.
Then I would spread ballast over the tracks and spray or drip the boozed up glue and water. The alcohol really helps it spread and the end result sticks very well.
I'm sure people will find holes in my process but it worked very well for me.
Jim
thanks mike... that's what i was going to try...
Ran across an article last night in the new On30 Annual suggesting a foam adhesive called PL300 the author used for his foam base. I'm not familiar with the product but it could probably be found at the BORG (Big Orange Retail Giant) Store. If not, There's Liquid Nails and other construction adhesives available in both squeeze and caulking tube. Most all of these are going to give a permanent bond so don't even think about changing anything after the glue cures!
I do a few things differently:
1. I hold the track in place with the round toothpicks that are sold at Crackerbarrel (discovered by my spouse).
2. I use an eyedropper and put 90% isopropyl alcohol over all the track segments, but NOT over the turnouts.
3. then I make a mix of 30-50% elmers glue with water and drip it over the track (and again, not over the turnouts, except possibly the ends opposite the points).
4. now put some bricks on top of the track to hold it in place....you DID leave space for them in step 1, didn't you!!! they can be on their side or on their ends....
and the best part of this technique: if you need to lift the track, get out a 1 or 1.5" paint scraper, and slide it under the track -- should lift right up leaving the foam undamaged.
Michael Hewitt
Hampstead, NC
PL300 is a 'Foam" friendly adhesive and won't 'eat' into it. It is really a polyurethane product (think Gorilla Glue).
Personally, I prefer the latex adhesive caulk. A thin layer spread out and then press the track into it. No mess with water or glue and if removal becomes necessary. track will 'pop' right off with a putty knife.
The caulk also works well for laying the roadbed too.
Michael, does this work for tight curves as well or do they tend to lift up?
mabloodhound, what name brand and model of latex caulk do you use? Is it possible to remove track if need be?
Thanks all!
I use DAP caulk, the cheap stuff is just fine.
Remember to spread it thin, you don't want it to squeeze out and up between the ties.
Here's a question for you all.
If I don't mount foam to a board, what do you all use or recommend for the thickness of the foam insulation board?
I was thinking 2" thick to give it rigidity but I might be overlooking something.
Thanks,
Bruce
I use Liquid Nails for Projects. While it does have a much stronger bond than white glue solutions, it's still possible to break it free. I used a very thin layer (~ 1/16") on foam coated with earth-tone latex paint. I put two, 1/4" wide lines down (on either side of my centerline).
I'm doing portable modules and white glue doesn't handle the abuse as far as the track is concerned. It does fine for ballast and other scenery items.
-John
John for your displays, what do you use for the base foam of the layout?
Thanks again,
Bruce
Ive glued track down with carpenters wood glue "the heavy yellow stuff" rather if its Elmer's or tight bond (Lowe's) it works for me. I spread a thin layer down and then weight it down wait a short while and its down . want to remove it? Spray it lightly with hot water and it lifts back up. . But... Liquid nails is great & very permanent.
I'm using 2" blue foam over an open grid of 1x4"joists. I apply glue to the blue foam and then set my module benchwork on top and weight it down. I then leave alone for a day or two and then the basic module is complete.
BTW, the reason I went with modules was in case I move someday I can take the layout down to manageable chunks.
Bruce -
Most of the modules are XPS foam (extruded polystyrene). This is typically blue or pink in color and available in several thicknesses. All of the modules have sturdy but lightweight frames to support the foam.
-John
Thanks guys!
So, for building a 2'x4' micro layout, I should strengthen the bottom with some sort of wood bracing.
Thanks,
Bruce
For a 2x4 micro, I'd make a 2x4 frame with a cross brace midway along the 4ft sides. XPS foam can (and will) flex if it can.
For added strength, we cover the top of our frames with 3/16" ply (luan/doorskin). This has a few benefits. First, it ties the frame together and stiffens it. Second, it creates a broad gluing surface to bond the foam (vs. just the frame edges. Lastly, even though it's thin ply, it provides a wooden mounting surface for switch machines, terminal blocks, wire tie-downs, etc.
-John
Thanks John, I wanted to try and start the correct way and learn from others!
Thanks again everyone!
Bruce
I just bought a couple of hollow-core doors at a local salvage shop which should make great bases for pink foam. They are fairly lightweight, very rigid, and cost $5 each, since they were slightly damaged. And the damage is right where I'm going to glue the pink foam!
I was also looking at an old bulletin board, which has a nice wood frame.
manager