Because I have a garage layout, I can't run trains in the winter. So my winter project has been building a Pennsy G5 (4-6-0). The shell and chassis is Bowser. The tender is Penn Line.
This morning I installed the motor (skew wound DC-71) and did a test run. The engine shorts out on right hand curves (22" radius). It runs fine going straight or left. I have all wheel pick up in the tender, so I didn't wire the motor to the loco frame.
At first I thought it was the pony trucks, so I removed them and ran the engine... still shorts on the right curve. However, if I lift the front of the engine a little, it begins to run again.
223 pieces of the loco are metal. The only plastic parts are the tender trucks and tender axles. I'm no electrician, so I'm at a loss to solve the problem. My gut says either the front drive wheels or the pilot is bridging the tracks somehow. Is there a simple test to find the short?
Thanks for reading this. Will post pics when I get this last bug out of it.
Regards,
Jonathan
Here's a few pics with the pieces test fit.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1744.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1745.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1746.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1749.jpg)
Please tell me you don't have that Pennsy engine on the Belt Line through the Howard Street Tunnel :-P
anyway, see if you have any metal(Frame included) touching the wheels, sounds like the drivers might be coming in contact with something. turn the loco upside down and replicate the right turn and see if anything is touching the wires.
If possible, take leads from the track and hold em against the pickups while replicating the turns.
another option would be to wire it like bowser suggests and see if that works. That's a great looking engine. I'm building the bowser light USRA mike and setting it up for DCC. Both brushes are insulated from the motor frame. Do you have the 2 wire motor or 1?
PD and B&OF,
Thanks for the tips.
I have the two wire motor. It is new. It also the last DC-71 Motor that Bowser had. There will be no more. I plan to reconnect to the loco frame once I find all the little bugs. I think that will lead to a smoother ride. On perfect, level, straight track, the engine is as slow and smooth as my Spectrums, but the Bowser is completely unforgiving of imperfect curves and turnouts.
I am quickly discovering that many adjustments are necessary when building a Bowser loco. Here are a few:
The pilot is causing a short when it hits the left rail. The engine is finding two minor humps in my trackwork I was unaware of. I am filing down the cowcatcher as much as possible to solve that. Will revisit these invisible humps.
One of the crankpin screws was a hair long and touching the brass driver wheel holding plate as it went through its revolutions. Caused a short when turning right. Filed down the crankpin screw AND all sides of the driver wheel holding plate.
Pony trucks will derail on one curve on my layout... only one. Since it is the only engine that behaves this way, I will try to add weight to the truck.
Anyway, I've been building this for about a month. Can't complete the final appearance, until I spend some time making it run right. I believe I can get there. It's going to take a lot of patience and minor readjustments for now. I hate this part...
Regards,
Jonathan
PS, tried the "Blacken-it" on the drive mechansim. It certainly looks weathered, but it wasn't the effect I was going for. Live and learn...
As long as you're us old DC, using one wire to the frame from the motor is okay. But if you are doing DCC, DON'T DO IT. You'll fry the decoder.
Bowser engines are tough to build but yield a nice product when done. When people see the engine and say, nice, you can say, I built it myself. Between my brother and me, there are a ton of the old locos kits like that. From Mantua there are as follows. 0-4-0t, 0-4-0, 0-8-0, 2-8-2,and a 4-6-2. from Bowser we have a 4-6-2 k4, 2-8-2 USRA light mike and a 2-8-0 old lady. 2 weeks ago I cleaned the wheels and tested the 0-4-0t, it ran like a charm. All the engines except the 2-8-0 and 0-8-0 are old DC. Remotoring thr rest at this time is not in the budget. And as a note for endurance, the 0-4-0t was acquired in high school so that makes it at least 45 years young.
Those old Mantuas will run forever with a little maintainance.
I can attest to the fact that Jon's G-5 was a basket case a month ago. He didn't mention that he scratch built the under running board piping himself rather than get a Bowser kit.
Jon's engine is a product of skill, effort, patience and time. We now have a shake the box crowd who will vilify Bachmann if a coupler is too low. These folks will never know the satisfaction of tinkering with something (especially a basket case) and then seeing it operate.
Kudos to Jon!
Yes kudos to Jon. I never had an easy time building those engines, it was always something, but the satisfaction of getting it working, and working well is great.
Thanks for the kind words, guys. Really my thanks goes to Woody who sent me this "basket case." It really wasn't in that bad of shape--a few bumps and bruises here and there. I felt like I was over the hump once I got the drive mechansim turning freely. He also sent some brass detail parts which really enhances the appearance.
If I understand the theory behind these metal kits, the whole loco is designed to pick up current from the right rail. So anything that contacts the left rail (or wheels) would cause a short. Following that logic, I wonder if an application of this "bullfrog snot" stuff, to the left driver wheels, would prevent a lot of shorting possibilities. Not that the engine needs more traction. It weighs in at nearly two pounds. It feels like lead in my hands.
As to my skills, well this may be the last steam kit I attempt. It's really a lot of work (60+ hours so far). Plus, my eyes and hands aren't what they used to be. A magnifying glass and tiny tweezers will only get you so far. In the end, one can spend as much working on a kit as buying a RTR. I do agree it will be quite satisfying when I get this puppy rolling true.
Regards,
Jonathan
Yes, they are not 'shake the box' ready. They do require a lot of work. The bull frog snot wouldn't help because the rim might be touching, not the tread. You might try a fiber shim on the axles if the wheels are moving too much side to side. It wouldn't take much. This is on the side with the insulated drivers. They should be kept from touching anything metallic. Even a piece of electricians tape or very thin plastic sheet cut to fit on the side of the frame might solve the problem. The loco picks up current on one side and the tender on the other side.
Yes, a shim behind the drivers might definitely help. The fireman's side drivers have insulation between the tire and the wheel casting so technically they are insulated and shouldn't cause a short unless the flanged tire is touching something.
The Bowser engines are a lot of fun but they can be very frustrating when little shorts occur (as Jon is finding out!)
PD, you caused an 'AHA' moment!
I could cut a slit in a few fiber washers to fit over each axle, and if I need to, I could sneak in a little glue to hold them to the frame.
Brilliant!
udaman (text speak for thanks a million, friend)
Regards,
Jonathan
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1748.jpg)
I hope that will fix it.
OK, I was able to cut a slot in the fiber washers and 'snap' them into place between the wheels and the frame. Easier than I thought.
Initial test shows my only grounding left is caused by the pilot touching the left rail in two spots on my layout.
I have since filed down the pilot. The bottom rung looks like a razor blade!
I also put a fiber washer between the pilot and the bracket that holds it. In all I have raised the clearance a little more than 1/32". Haven't had a chance to test it, but if there is still pilot grounding, I think it will be a case of humps in the trackwork that I need to fix.
I should mention, there is no problem on my outer loop, which has a minimum 24" radius. The inner loop is 22" radius minimum. This loco is suppose to be able to run on 18" curves, but I'm not going there. Don't need to get to that tolerance on my mainline.
I think I'm ready to get back into the final assembly and addition of a few more superdetail pieces. A little touch up, and I'll be ready to show off my newest baby.
Thanks B&OFan, PD and Woody for helping through the tough part.
Regards,
Jonathan
Jon: That Cal Scale brass pilot is similar to but not exactly the same as the Bowser die cast one that came with the engine. Perhaps mounting it a tad higher would work better than filing!
I can't wait for your final pictures.
I've got to say Jon, you've got the most interesting projects.
Thanks.
I have become a little bored with scenery, so I keep looking for something more interesting to do. I need to force myself back to structures, lights and trees.
Several years ago I built a G5s Long Island from a Bowser kit and had the same problem on both left & right hand turns. I turned all the lights out in the room and ran the engine. Lo and behold a small spark. The lead trucks or pilot trucks were touching the front cylinders on turns, even 25" radius turns. A file and a dab of paint corrected the problem. There is a small flat spot on each of the cylinders so the wheels can clear but it's barely noticeable. After tweeking the Mantua style motor it runs fine.
LIRRman,
I had been debating with myself, whether to file away at the cylinders or not. Since I haven't done final assembly, yet, this would be a good time to file. "An ounce of prevention..." as it were.
Thanks, great to hear from previous builders. Makes me feel like I'm on the right track ;).
Thanks again,
Jonathan
Just think, each step is a new challenge to overcome. You'll get there. I've been contemplating sending the USRA light mike mechanism into bowser to get it looked at. But, in stead, I ripped it apart and found a few problems to fix and I hope this does the trick.
PD,
The mechanism was the make-or-break part of the project for me. I studied it, and drawings of the mechanism, forever it seemed. I found theory articles on eccentric crank angles... all kinds of strange stuff. Took a couple of weeks of tinkering to get it working smoothly. I kept finding little things that were causing a minor bind... fix it and another bind would turn up. I still expect something to go wrong with the valve gear at some point. So far, so good. When I pick the loco up off the track (current from tender), the drive wheels turn so quiet and smoothly I can't believe it. I didn't lube any of the parts until I felt like all the adjustments were done. I feel sorry for all the weight the mechanism has to carry. What a heavy engine!
Regards,
Jonathan
Are you happy you spent all that time on it? Give yourself a big pat on the back :) :) :) :) :) :)
I got my mike going tonight. It took a shim or 2 in different places but it solved a lot of the problems. For instance, the gear on the driver was moving side to side and jamming the worm. A couple of kadee washers later, problem solved. There was a lot of play in the motor, another washer solved that problem. I found some loose screws on the valve gear causing binding. That's been fixed. And the holes in the cylinders were a touch tight, those have been reamed and no more binding there. It takes time, patience and a very close eye over the whole model as it's running to see where the problems are.
Sounds like you're having as much fun as me, if not more. I felt very relieved when the mechanism finally started turning freely.
Just got done filing out a little material from the inside of the steam chest (hope it was enough). I think at long last I'm ready to solder the headlight bulb and screw down the shell. A smart man would make one more test run before closing things up. I dunno if I'm that smart. If the engine still shorts after all the little adjustments, I think I have to pull a little track and smooth things out.
I've decided to reconnect the motor to the loco frame (right side). I like the thought of more wheels picking up power. And DCC is in the very far future. I know how to change things if/when I make the switch.
Just itching to put on the marker lights and other little details.
Regards,
Jonathan
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1763.jpg)
a little weight for the pony trucks
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1764.jpg)
bulb finally fits in headlight can (lots of slow, hair-raising drilling)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1768.jpg)
finally enough clearance for the pilot
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1754.jpg)
installation of skew wound DC-71 (sitting on white gloves I use when handling the shell)
PS. Don't know if any of you are aware, but Bill Bowser passed away last month. He was 94. Bids on Bowser kits (unassembled) are rising rapidly (ebay)
Off topic.
Boswser now has the Stewart line. Do not know how long they have had it though.
lex
thats a good qweshion
Quote from: lexon on January 31, 2010, 03:25:04 PM
Off topic.
Boswser now has the Stewart line. Do not know how long they have had it though.
lex
Sept. 2005 - information posted on Bowser/Stewart web site
http://bowser-trains.com/Stewart/Stewart%20Time%20Line.htm
I copied the contents of this thread for future reference.
I was lucky enough a couple of years ago to obtain a couple of the Bowser steam kits off of e-bay way before the prices increased.
I have the G5 and M-1 kits complete with the superdetail parts included. These are my two future projects to tackle after my main layout is more or less finished.
PN,
When you are building these locos, remember to be patient with the quirks. When you solve one, another will turn up. For instance, I no longer have any shorts. However, now I have an occasional derailment (driver wheels). Happens once every three or four laps around the loop--and not in the same place. Gotta noodle this out. See the video.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/th_DSCN1788.jpg) (http://s642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/?action=view¤t=DSCN1788.flv)
Don't know if this link works, yet. Now I'm learning how to shoot and download video.
This was at 50% power. Trying to break in the loco. Obviously, I still have a couple of things to work out. Engine had been running fine for about 15 minutes, when I decided to get it on film. Ah, Murphy, how predictable you are!
Oh, and whatever the metal is that Bowser uses; Mazak, Shadrak or Obednigo... It is very, very soft. It is extremely easy to strip out a threaded hole. Go ahead, ask me how I know ;).
Regards,
Jonathan
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN1787.jpg)
jonathan
The link works, I felt your pain when the engine derails. When you figure that problem out let us know.
That sure is a great looking engine.
Thank you. I like it myself. Will be working on the Pennsy tomorrow morning. I'm guessing that I put too many fiber washers on the driver axles to prevent shorts. The driver wheels have no side-to-side wiggle room. Will be pulling the washers one-by-one to see if that helps.
Regards,
Jonathan
Solved it!!
Once again, it's the brackets that hold the brakes on the pony trucks, running under the steam chest... They lift the front of the loco, ever so slightly. The lift is just enough to make the driver wheels lift and roll over the rail heads, on a curve. Fortunately I don't have to disassemble the engine. I can resume filing away at the cylinders with the trucks removed.
Thought I was sooooo clever by adding brakes to the lead trucks. That'll teach me.
Sheepishly,
Jonathan