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Discussion Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: WoundedBear on February 01, 2010, 12:35:57 PM



Title: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: WoundedBear on February 01, 2010, 12:35:57 PM
This is a link from today's news.........

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2010/01/31/12686831-cp.html

Sid


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Jim Banner on February 01, 2010, 01:33:38 PM
Scary, isn't it?  And then young people wonder why they cannot get a good job. 

How to NOT get a good job:

Hand in a poorly written resume and you won't even be granted an interview.  Easy solution:  for a few dollars, a professional resume writer will take care of that.

Show up in torn jeans, a tee shirt with profanity on it, untied shoes, or your hat on backwards, and you will find your interview has been cancelled.  Usual excuse: "sorry, the job has already been filled."  Easy solution: for a few more dollars, you can buy a shirt and rent a suit and shoes.  Leave the hat at home.

Start off the interview with inarticulate English.  Your interview is over before it has properly begun.  Easy solution:  there is no easy solution.  Perhaps night school or an English as a second language course will help, but these require hard work and dedication.  The only easy way out is to lower your standards and accept a grunt job at minimum wage.

Bottom line, like it or not, is that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  (And if you don't know what that means, ask your English teacher.)

Jim



Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: r0bert on February 01, 2010, 02:54:19 PM
Aoccdrnig to rseearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae.

The rset can be a tatol mses and you can sitll and you raed it wouthit porbelm.

Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.   ::)


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: tac on February 01, 2010, 05:15:40 PM
I aerge wthi ttah. ;D

tca
www.ovgrs.org


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: pdlethbridge on February 01, 2010, 07:11:04 PM
Math skills  may be even worse. I worked in a bindery where the use of a ruler was essential. I knew people who couldn't use one and didn't know fractions. They were also the ones who did not want to learn something new as in the operation of a machine or different machine. They were glad to stay in the same old job day after day. As a binderyman, you have to learn all the skills in the bindery, cutting, folding, binding, die cutting, embossing, etc. Learning more is always a job protector. 


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Jhanecker2 on February 01, 2010, 07:41:33 PM
I strongly suspect that with age I am becoming more of a curmudgeon than I was in my "youth" ; it could also be that as a Q.C. Inspector for 30 years my tolerance for rank incompetence has become depleted . Is banishment from the planet too severe ? Where are  Star-Gates when you need them ?  The alternative is to retrain all these people & take away all of their toys & privileges until they actually earn them . Communications are difficult enough without more roadblocks .  Where is the pride in craftsmanship & honest work ?      John II


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Pacific Northern on February 01, 2010, 09:56:54 PM
Aoccdrnig to rseearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae.

The rset can be a tatol mses and you can sitll and you raed it wouthit porbelm.

Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.   ::)

Any one submitting a resume/application with spelling similar to this example would never ever get an interview.


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Cody J on February 01, 2010, 10:04:25 PM
I totally and completely agree with the article. I am 13 and use Facebook and text frequently and use Myspace less frequently and still maintain great grammar and spelling skills, in fact, I've been punlished twice. The people mentioned in the article are the kids doing drugs, drinking alcohol, skipping class, excessive consumpiton of energy drinks, etc at age 13! They are also the people that wear clothes by companies like Murder One Clothing and DGK or something to that effect. I absolutely HATE those people because they are the ones who make teachers mad and ruin our great country.


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: pdlethbridge on February 01, 2010, 10:37:13 PM
Your spelling is pretty good, at least 99% punlished?????  You are the exception. You don't waste your time with TV or video games but would rather learn about something.  I would also say that, as a 13 year old, you're more than willing to learn from your mistakes and the mistakes of others. I wish more young ones were as responsible as you. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Cody J on February 01, 2010, 10:45:09 PM
Thanks PD. Oh, by the way, it was supposed to be published, not punlished, the "B" and "N" are right next to each other and I type fast and sometimes make mistakes. Thanks again for the compliments.


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: the Bach-man on February 01, 2010, 10:49:36 PM
Dear All,
The most appalling aspect of the article is that the English professor who is decrying poor grammar and usage actually said "I go"...
      "I get their essays and I go 'You obviously don't know what a sentence fragment is.
      You think commas are sort of like parmesan cheese that you sprinkle on your words',"
      said Budra.
Horrible! Professor Budra should be ashamed!
the Bach-man


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: pdlethbridge on February 01, 2010, 11:00:51 PM
Put him in the corner with the dunce cap on his head. >:( >:( >:( >:(


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Santa Fe buff on February 01, 2010, 11:35:56 PM
Redone:
I receive their essays and state, "You obviously don't know what a sentence fragment is. You think commas are a type of Parmesan cheese that you sprinkle on your words."

 :D He just got corrected by a 13 year old... Of course, I do take advanced English and Literature.

Cheers,
Joshua
 


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Jhanecker2 on February 02, 2010, 12:56:44 AM
Trainsrock: Hate is too strong emotion to waste on most people; disdain or pity is possibly the strongest emotion necessary.  All of us are born ignorant , most of us try to learn  better . Some believe that it is not worth the effort those are called losers. Stupidity cannot be cured , to which nature applies an automatic death sentence . Intelligence is a survival tool only if you use it.  John II


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: NarrowMinded on February 02, 2010, 01:07:12 AM
I find all of this very funny. If my great grand father were to read a "Properly" written paragraph by today's standards he would likely have a hard time believing any of us had an education.

My 2 cents

NM


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Woody Elmore on February 02, 2010, 10:42:43 AM
I teach in graduate school and we require a writing sample for admission.  The college offers free writing classes for those students whom we feel need some work with written English. The sad part is that every applicant we have is a college graduate and most of them are teachers!

There are many reasons for the problems with written English. Many blame the internet and text messaging. Others say that the schools are at fault.

Newspaper and magazine circulation are declining due to the availability of material on the internet and the fact that a pot of people today don't take or have the time to read.

The strange thing is that the Chinese and Indian governments are pushing schools to teach English grammar and composition because they know that English is the language of commerce.

for those of you who are interested in the vagaries of English grammar I suggest this website: www.grammarphobia.com



Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Jhanecker2 on February 02, 2010, 11:36:33 AM
To Narrowminded : I admit that that literature prior to the first World War seems to be overwritten to our modern tastes.  Reading the works of Jules Verne , Mark Twain, Edgar Rice Burroughs, H.G. Wells and others is a different experience from reading Hemmingway and later authors . I suspect that they were speaking to different audiences.

To Woody Elmore : There is more than enough blame to go around , the problem is how correct the problem . I believe it is an attitudinal problem where it is not KOOL to appear intelligent or for that matter to be intelligent .  In a democracy that attitude is suicidal , an intelligent electorate is an absolute necessity . Not only is English the defacto commercial language it is also the global scientific & engineering language .  Cultures cannot afford to stand still . John II


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: CNE Runner on February 02, 2010, 12:38:21 PM
Honestly, this is a worthwhile thread...'gets the old gray cells churning. Not only is grammar given short shift, in many of our educational settings today, but cursive writing has also 'dropped off' the academic radar screen.

The argument could be made that cursive writing was a necessity of the fountain/quill pen era and is [mostly] irrelevant in today's high tech world. If the opportunity presents itself, look through a ledger from the 19th or early 20th centuries...beautiful script to say the least. Given my previous statement, one would think 'printing' would be the new standard; but sadly that is not the case. Are we so intent with 'completion' that we ignore the end results?

Bachmann Trains has given us use of a spell checker that actually works (I have used other forums wherein the 'checker' was almost useless). Why isn't it used for every post? The forum also allows is to preview our posts (a useful feature). Why isn't it used more frequently? The sad truth is that most posters write from a 'stream of consciousness' - taking little time to review their: tone [Did I really want to say something that strong?], knowledge/truth [Do I really know that to be factual?],spellings, punctuation, and wording [Am I making sense to anyone outside my own head?].

Recently, I 'playfully chastised' (an oxymoron if there ever was one) a lad who posted an almost unreadable submission. I say, in public, that I am sorry to have even mentioned the subject - an act not done in an open assembly...some things are better done in private. However, the notion that ones disability would foster such language skills is pure nonsense. As a retired clinical psychologist, I have had the opportunity to observe many language embedded disabilities that were overcome (or positively coped) with a regimen consisting of desire and practice. Or could it be that we operate, in a society, where good enough has become the standard?

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. I hope my past posts have been of use and will resolve to curb my acerbic pen in the future.

Regards,
Ray


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: tac on February 02, 2010, 07:46:49 PM
Honestly, this is a worthwhile thread...'gets the old gray cells churning. Not only is grammar given short shift, in many of our educational settings today, but cursive writing has also 'dropped off' the academic radar screen.

The argument could be made that cursive writing was a necessity of the fountain/quill pen era and is [mostly] irrelevant in today's high tech world. If the opportunity presents itself, look through a ledger from the 19th or early 20th centuries...beautiful script to say the least. Given my previous statement, one would think 'printing' would be the new standard; but sadly that is not the case. Are we so intent with 'completion' that we ignore the end results?

Bachmann Trains has given us use of a spell checker that actually works (I have used other forums wherein the 'checker' was almost useless). Why isn't it used for every post? The forum also allows is to preview our posts (a useful feature). Why isn't it used more frequently? The sad truth is that most posters write from a 'stream of consciousness' - taking little time to review their: tone [Did I really want to say something that strong?], knowledge/truth [Do I really know that to be factual?],spellings, punctuation, and wording [Am I making sense to anyone outside my own head?].

Recently, I 'playfully chastised' (an oxymoron if there ever was one) a lad who posted an almost unreadable submission. I say, in public, that I am sorry to have even mentioned the subject - an act not done in an open assembly...some things are better done in private. However, the notion that ones disability would foster such language skills is pure nonsense. As a retired clinical psychologist, I have had the opportunity to observe many language embedded disabilities that were overcome (or positively coped) with a regimen consisting of desire and practice. Or could it be that we operate, in a society, where good enough has become the standard?

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. I hope my past posts have been of use and will resolve to curb my acerbic pen in the future.

Regards,
Ray

Ray, this has been a very interesting post to read, especially for me, who has made at least 50% of my full-time military occupation out of multiple language skills, both written and spoken.  I agree with everything that you have written, but would also point out something that you did not mention.  The person that we both felt needed a good poke with a sharp stick - disabled or not- has failed to come up with the goods with regard to the first post that he made - he has not followed up the initial request he made for information, but has stopped his search for information and gone on the ultra-defensive an obnoxious comment. 

He totally ignored my post and the suggestions I made in it that would have helped us to help him, and then almost immediately began another thread on a totally different subject.

As a retired clinical psychologist, what is your take in that?

...and while we are at it, let's not forget that the spell-checker is there for anybody to use, disabled or not.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: poliss on February 02, 2010, 09:56:49 PM
A Little Poem Regarding Computer Spell Checkers...
 
Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: rogertra on February 02, 2010, 10:00:57 PM
I give up on spilling a gramer cuase i work for a skool distrik in a non teeching roll and sea how kids right and spill an sadly adults too so now it do not bovver me any more lyke it used two.  ;)


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: poliss on February 02, 2010, 10:16:05 PM
If an English professor puts a comma before an 'and' what hope is there for the rest of us?

"Paul Budra, an English professor....."Punctuation errors are huge, and apostrophe errors.""

His whole sentence is ungrammatical as apostrophes are punctuation marks, or should that be tautologous?  ;D


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: poliss on February 02, 2010, 10:25:20 PM
Oh dear, I fell into the trap too. It should be 'professor of English', not English professor.  :o


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: pdlethbridge on February 02, 2010, 10:41:54 PM
somebody get a rope ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: NarrowMinded on February 02, 2010, 10:43:20 PM
For some reason that poem reminded me of when I was in china. I had several young workers eager to practice their English with me, I had to laugh when one of them asked me if I needed him to "activate the illumination device". (turn on the light)

NM


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: tac on February 03, 2010, 05:55:10 AM
For some reason that poem reminded me of when I was in china. I had several young workers eager to practice their English with me, I had to laugh when one of them asked me if I needed him to "activate the illumination device". (turn on the light)

NM

In Gulf War 1, there was a measure of unintelligibility in the 'mil-speak' used by certain elements of the USMC.  One such gentleman confungled us all by constantly referring to the 'terrestial/oceanic interface'.

He meant 'beach'.

tac
www.ovgrs.org


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Woody Elmore on February 03, 2010, 10:39:27 AM
When the weather gets warm I will walk my dog along the terrestrial/oceanic interface and at night I will be sure carry a portable illumination device.

Isn't English fun? Let's not forget my favorite book on the subject: "How to Rede and Spell Gud"


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Jhanecker2 on February 03, 2010, 12:31:38 PM
It is a marvelous construction it can be used like a warhammer and also like a rapier at the same time . Long may it thrive .  John II


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Michigan Railfan on February 04, 2010, 05:05:36 PM
I totally and completely agree with the article. I am 13 and use Facebook and text frequently and use Myspace less frequently and still maintain great grammar and spelling skills, in fact, I've been punlished twice. The people mentioned in the article are the kids doing drugs, drinking alcohol, skipping class, excessive consumpiton of energy drinks, etc at age 13! They are also the people that wear clothes by companies like Murder One Clothing and DGK or something to that effect. I absolutely HATE those people because they are the ones who make teachers mad and ruin our great country.

I'm 13 too. My grammar is alright, better than most people in my school. All the kids these days don't even care about school. Its only about popularity. Also, 3 people in my school this year have been suspended for drugs in school. What ever happened to the good ole' days? School is now a popularity contest instead of a place to learn.


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: morrisf on February 04, 2010, 05:29:42 PM
The problem with college students today is that 80% of them can't write properly and the other 30% can't do math.


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: ABC on February 04, 2010, 05:33:32 PM
That there is 110%


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Pacific Northern on February 04, 2010, 07:18:20 PM
That there is 110%

It was intended be wrong, its a joke.


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: ABC on February 04, 2010, 07:58:34 PM
It was intended be wrong, its a joke.
That's why I said "that there" because it is not correct grammar.


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: rogertra on February 04, 2010, 11:24:27 PM
It was intended be wrong, its a joke.
That's why I said "that there" because it is not correct grammar.

The 110% crowd must be professional so called "athletes" as they are always going on about giving "110%".  Morons!


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Doneldon on February 05, 2010, 02:34:48 AM
Dear All,
The most appalling aspect of the article is that the English professor who is decrying poor grammar and usage actually said "I go"...
      "I get their essays and I go 'You obviously don't know what a sentence fragment is.
      You think commas are sort of like parmesan cheese that you sprinkle on your words',"
      said Budra.
Horrible! Professor Budra should be ashamed!
the Bach-man


When my ex-wife and I were raising her children we always asked them where they were going when they used this expression.  They hated it but they stopped.  Plus one for the 'rents.



Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Woody Elmore on February 05, 2010, 10:44:15 AM
Actually it is possible to have 80 percent of students not do well in math and 30 percent not do well with English. Some students, I can attest, will fall into both categories!

NYC has a very big community college program. It takes most students three years to complete the course work and four years is not uncommon. Granted some students work full time and many come from foreign countries with poor English skills so it takes longer to finish a program but there are those who take five to six years. They keep changing their major and taking the minimum full time load so that they can get the college medical insurance.

Hey, shouldn't this board be about trains?



Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: rogertra on February 05, 2010, 11:58:40 AM
Dear All,
The most appalling aspect of the article is that the English professor who is decrying poor grammar and usage actually said "I go"...
      "I get their essays and I go 'You obviously don't know what a sentence fragment is.
      You think commas are sort of like parmesan cheese that you sprinkle on your words',"
      said Budra.
Horrible! Professor Budra should be ashamed!
the Bach-man


When my ex-wife and I were raising her children we always asked them where they were going when they used this expression.  They hated it but they stopped.  Plus one for the 'rents.


Many teachers in the school, where I work use the word "Goes" in place of "said".

Then there are the many, many people who use "seen", as in "I seen that the other day" in place of "saw".


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: mf5117 on February 05, 2010, 12:26:20 PM
ha ha ,this topic again . ho ym dog .... I've read some of the post from some of the high archey , around here .and they sometimes don't capitalize or leave a comma out .the where were wear and there their and hmm what was the other one . but who cares help a guy out . My trains are still going . oh yob , keep the hobby going . some of aren't as holy as thou . but some of us learn from them there their smart people . at least i made 000,47 $'s last year so i must be smart somewear .....lol   Have Fun "THE 5117"


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Craig on February 05, 2010, 03:08:21 PM
My daughter is 16 and she Facebooks, Myspaces, and texts on her phone and Ipod routinely. None of that has adversely affected her ability to write, spell, or articulate a thought. She has consistently won Young Author Awards in school.

I don't buy the whole "Students failing because of Twitter, texting" notion. And that article is chock full of terrible grammar and phraseology.


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: poliss on February 05, 2010, 08:14:14 PM
According to a study by Coventry University, texting actually helps pupils with spelling and literacy. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8468351.stm


Title: Re: Spelling and grammar...an interesting article....
Post by: Jhanecker2 on February 05, 2010, 08:26:33 PM
63 subjects is not a statistically large enough number for a study even in the context of texters in England .  Besides that English is not a phoenetic language so that meaning is not conveyed by only sound but by spelling .  John II