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Discussion Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cooped on March 12, 2010, 09:00:25 PM



Title: Cab forward question
Post by: Cooped on March 12, 2010, 09:00:25 PM
Hi

this has bugged me for a while. Not being too familiar with north american locomotives when I first saw the cab forward I was quite intreiged. The benefits of having the cab at the front are fairly obvious, but I'm struggling to figure out how the coal from the tender was transfered all the way up into the firebox. Somehow I doubt if the fireman was made to climb all the way along the length of the loco with shovelfulls!

If anyone can set me straight that would be appreciated.

Thanks
Dan


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: Michigan Railfan on March 12, 2010, 09:08:35 PM
I remember someone telling me that many cab forwards ran off of oil instead of coal. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I think it is. :)


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: richg on March 12, 2010, 09:11:07 PM
To my knowledge, they were all oil fired. Below is a link to the first USA cab forward I believe.

http://www.ironhorse129.com/Projects/Engines/NPC_21/NPC_No21.htm

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/steam24.html


Rich



Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: Cooped on March 12, 2010, 09:22:04 PM
Well that would certainly make sense.

Thanks
Dan


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: poliss on March 12, 2010, 09:22:55 PM
"All of the cab-forwards were oil-burning locomotives..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cab_forward


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: Michigan Railfan on March 12, 2010, 10:19:47 PM
My friend also said that there's only one cab-forward surviving, and its at a train museum in California. Is that true?


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: poliss on March 12, 2010, 10:22:54 PM
In the Wikipedia link I just gave. "One example of the type, Southern Pacific 4294, is kept at the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento, California. It is a 4-8-8-2 locomotive and is the only one to escape being scrapped."


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: Jim Banner on March 13, 2010, 12:43:20 AM
In poliss's Wikipedia link, there seems to be some confusion about where the fireman's work station was located.  With the cab end of the locomotive being the front, the statement
Quote
the fireman's station remains on the footplate behind the firebox (for obvious reasons)
is not at all obvious to me.  Behind the firebox on a cab forward would put the fireman right inside the boiler.  I think I would prefer to take my chances with being poisoned by exhaust fumes rather than being boiled in 400 degree water.

Jim


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: Robertj668 on March 13, 2010, 04:17:38 AM
My son and I want a Cab Forward! It is unique to us!
Robert


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: richg on March 13, 2010, 11:27:54 AM
In a cab forward , the driver and fireman's seats where in the same position as a standard locomotive. I have diagrams of the inside of a cab forward. Driver on the right side, fireman on the left side.

Rich


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: OldTimer on March 13, 2010, 12:02:07 PM
The Fall 2009 issue of Classic Trains has a couple of wonderful articles on what it was like to fire a cab forward.  If you aren't familiar with this excellent quarterly, try to find a copy at the library and give it a look.  It's always a great read.
Old Timer


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: richg on March 13, 2010, 12:08:04 PM
The throttle hangs from the overhead just to the left of the driver. I have some diagrams from the Precision Scale Catalog because they use to sell detailed brass versions with all the controls and gauges inside the cab.. You don't want to know how much they cost.

Rich


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: Michigan Railfan on March 13, 2010, 04:58:26 PM
In the Wikipedia link I just gave. "One example of the type, Southern Pacific 4294, is kept at the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento, California. It is a 4-8-8-2 locomotive and is the only one to escape being scrapped."
Yep, that's the one. Thanks. But is that the only surviving cab-forward?


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: richg on March 13, 2010, 05:14:31 PM
In the Wikipedia link I just gave. "One example of the type, Southern Pacific 4294, is kept at the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento, California. It is a 4-8-8-2 locomotive and is the only one to escape being scrapped."
Yep, that's the one. Thanks. But is that the only surviving cab-forward?


That is a very diificult question. I think the link you quote answers that question but I might be wrong.  ;)

Rich


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: Jim Banner on March 13, 2010, 06:54:26 PM
Blink_182_Fan,
It is impossible to tell from that quote alone if the 4294 is the only surviving cab forward.  It all depends on what the author meant by "the only one."  Was he referring to cab forwards in general, Southern Pacific cab forwards in particular, 4-8-8-2 cab forwards, 4-8-8-2's in general, or what?

This seems to be the same author that had the fireman sitting inside the steam boiler.  It is easy to get mixed up when the locomotive's rear suddenly becomes its front.  Richg tells us
 
In a cab forward , the driver and fireman's seats where in the same position as a standard locomotive. I have diagrams of the inside of a cab forward. Driver on the right side, fireman on the left side.
In a normal locomotive, someone who was warming his backside at the firebox door would be riding backwards and would have the fireman on his right and the engineer on his left.   But in a cab forward, the same guy in the same position would be riding forward when his backside was toward the firebox door.  According to richg, this would make the guy on his right the engineer (NOT the fireman) and the guy on his left the fireman (NOT the engineer.) I hope we never get into a discussion of double Farlies!

Going back to your question, I too am wondering about cab forwards in other parts of the world?  Were any of them preserved?

Jim


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: OldTimer on March 13, 2010, 07:23:49 PM
You guys can ponder the vagaries of SP's cabs forward (there were several classes) all you want, but I'm going to be true to my favorite directionally challenged locomotive, the Beyer-Garrett!   ;)
Old Timer


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: richg on March 13, 2010, 07:30:08 PM
Here is an article on what prompted the SP to develop the cab forward.

http://www.rosetown.ch/Steam/Pages/cabforward.htm

An engineer had his loco "turned" before heading out with the freight dragged. He ran the loco tender first to keep from be asphyxiated with smoke and heat in the snow sheds and tunnels.
I do not know if this was done more than once.

Rich


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: pipefitter on March 13, 2010, 07:35:17 PM
You guys can ponder the vagaries of SP's cabs forward (there were several classes) all you want, but I'm going to be true to my favorite directionally challenged locomotive, the Beyer-Garrett!   ;)
Old Timer

Yea, those are some strange looking beasts. An associate pointed out that the water tanks over the drivers provide great traction. I've got several South African videos from Russ Scholl Productions featuring these locos.

Robert


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: Cooped on March 14, 2010, 10:12:23 AM
This is what I love about this forum. One small question, the answer to which may be obvious to those in the know, precipitates a vibrant discussion revealing some wonderful gems of information because everyone here just loves to talk about trains.

Hopefully as time goes by I will absorb enough information to become more of an information giver than the question poser and pass it forward so to speak, but in the meantime thanks to everyone here for making this forum what it is.

Dan


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: richg on March 14, 2010, 01:00:54 PM
Below is my Whimsy project based on a Mantua 0-6-0T with a DZ125 decoder in the loco and a SoundTraxx DSD-090LC decoder, plus 14mm x 25 mm speaker in the tender. The tender is from an older Bachmann 0-6-0 oil fired loco. The loco is now a 2-6-0. I have to add cab ladder as the crew complains about having to get in and out of the loco.
This is also based on a 0-4-0T that was changed into a 4-4-0 cab forward by a model company.

(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/Mantua0-6-0conversion.jpg)
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/IMG_0761.jpg)
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/CabForwardhoses.jpg)

I installed real glass in the cab using glass from Clover house. The glass is the thinnest I have ever seen. I used Testors Clear Parts Cement to attach the glass.

Rich



Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: pdlethbridge on March 14, 2010, 03:31:29 PM
Rich, did you get the cab for that engine from yardbird?


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: richg on March 14, 2010, 04:11:48 PM
Rich, did you get the cab for that engine from yardbird?

Yes I did. A lot of the ideas came from Dan at Yardbird. I was going to use an old Mantua slope back tender with Dan's oil conversion casting but the tender is a little wide. The cross compund air pump is from PSC. I added a little pipe. There should be some cooling pipes for the air from the air pump.

(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/Firstcut.jpg)

Parst as received.

(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/Cabforwardparts.jpg)

Front in place.

(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/Frontinplace2.jpg)

I replaced the coupler with a Kadee old time 711 coupler, PSC pilot and PSC dual air hoses which do not show very well.

I saw the below pictures some years ago but never was able to build it.

(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/CabFwdLilJoe1.jpg)
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/CabFwdLilJoe2-1.jpg)

Rich


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: Michigan Railfan on March 14, 2010, 06:33:20 PM
Rich, is that a prototypical locomotive, or did you just think of it? Just wondering, because I have never seen a 2-6-0 like that.


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: richg on March 14, 2010, 06:48:15 PM
Rich, is that a prototypical locomotive, or did you just think of it? Just wondering, because I have never seen a 2-6-0 like that.

Take time to read though the complete thread. I said this was a Whimsy project based on the #21 oil fired cab forward 4-4-0 at around the 1900s.

Rich


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: Jim Banner on March 14, 2010, 11:55:50 PM
Very nicely done. 

Looking at how exposed the crew are in your photograph makes me realized why so many railroads ran the early diesels long hood forward, even though that put the crew in stinking diesel fumes all day long.

Jim


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on March 16, 2010, 11:01:10 AM
Below is my Whimsy project based on a Mantua 0-6-0T with a DZ125 decoder in the loco and a SoundTraxx DSD-090LC decoder, plus 14mm x 25 mm speaker in the tender. The tender is from an older Bachmann 0-6-0 oil fired loco. The loco is now a 2-6-0. I have to add cab ladder as the crew complains about having to get in and out of the loco.

I wonder whether that two-wheeled truck could be used on the other end so as to create a "conventional" 2-6-0T?  ???


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: ebtnut on March 17, 2010, 01:26:21 PM
That cab casting was originally done by Kemtron back in the late 50's/early 60's to fit the back of a Varney Docksider.  That's what's shown in Rich's diagrams.  It was purely a freelance idea.  Other than that NPC narrow gauge cab-forward 4-4-0, the SP's cab-aheads were the only siginficant locos designed that way.  Just by way of history, the first two-foot locos on the Billerica and Bedford, which were Forneys, were originally built to run tank-forward, which technically made them 4-4-0T's.  When they went to the Sandy River in Maine, they were converted to run boiler-forward as
0-4-4T's.


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: richg on March 17, 2010, 01:37:01 PM
Below is my Whimsy project based on a Mantua 0-6-0T with a DZ125 decoder in the loco and a SoundTraxx DSD-090LC decoder, plus 14mm x 25 mm speaker in the tender. The tender is from an older Bachmann 0-6-0 oil fired loco. The loco is now a 2-6-0. I have to add cab ladder as the crew complains about having to get in and out of the loco.

I wonder whether that two-wheeled truck could be used on the other end so as to create a "conventional" 2-6-0T?  ???

You would probably have to extend the front of the loco a little as it has a switcher front end.

(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/Cab%20Forward/MP060BO.jpg)

Rich


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: RAM on March 17, 2010, 06:39:54 PM
I would  remove the headlight and mount it on the tender. 


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: richg on March 17, 2010, 06:52:17 PM
I would  remove the headlight and mount it on the tender. 

I already have a light on the tender.

Rich


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: trainmaster971 on March 18, 2010, 01:15:29 PM
There is nothing better than to see an articulated loco running.  I have three cab forwards. A Rivorossi, a WSM brass and a BLI with sound.  Needless to say that the BLI is the one that I operate the most.  The sound system is designed where the driver chuffs can get out of sequence with each other as was common on the full size locos. Every one should have one.


Title: Re: Cab forward question
Post by: tac on March 19, 2010, 07:10:00 AM
I've got an AccuCraft NG/G16 live steam 16mm [1/19th] scale Beyer-Garratt that I lettered up for the Alfred County Railway in Natal, RSA.

Do a search on youtube for tac - Accucraft - Garratt - test -  and you'll see a lot of clips of it tootling around various tracks with fifty or sixty cars in tow...

Even THAT loco gets out of sync, but for real, and sounds great....

Sadly, I don't have either an AC-12 or a Big Boy, but I know a man who does..'  again, youtube - and thurnby - cab-forward - live steam - should get you a few clips...

Best

tac
www.ovgrs.org