I started out 2 years ago with a simple oval on the equal of 2 4x8 boards. It was basically a u shaped dog bone layout. I always had some of the layout double tracked for yard purposes but I used my Atlas software to design a new layout that was a folded over dogbone so I could double my runs. I was even able to keep from producing grades that I thought I would need to do the layout. Using a couple of switches and a crossover I was able to create a layout that could run as 1 loop or 2. It has no reverse sections, loops or wyes The original layout has only been slightly modified and I have been able to test run to keep a check on the wiring. Here's a look see.
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/pdleth/newLayout02.jpg)
Only question I have is it possible to increase your radius to 24 or 26
My max size is 48" so 22" is it. I run nothing bigger than a decapod and a connie.
I ran 2-8-4s and 4-8-2s on my 22 --no problem
If you can squeeze another 4 inches in width you can go 22 and 24 for 2 mainlines
It will be 22 and 20, good enough for my engines
Better than 22 and 18
I have 22 and 18 and everything runs ok on it just gotta go kinda slow but it looks silly with the overhang
I would love to have sweeping curves 36" radius or more but it is not going to happen. I can get much more operation with 18" curves, even though that limits the size of locomotives and rolling stock. As far as overhang is concerned, if I can ignore that my layout is only a couple of miles from end to end, then I guess I can ignore a bit of overhang too. The worst is passenger cars. If the overhang of passenger cars starts to bother me, I just pull up a chair, sit down, and watch the trains at eye level. Except for the pilots among us, this is a much more realistic way of watching trains. And the overhang is hardly noticeable.
I do have some rolling stock and locomotives that will not run on anything less than about 24" radius, but a group of us built a layout with 30" minimum radius and I run them on it. Generally these units are ones that are too modern for my home layout which is set firmly in 1961 when four axle diesels and 40' or 50' cars ruled the rails. At the time, that was modern equipment. I wonder if people building for modern equipment today will find their curves mush too tight for modern equipment 40 or 50 years from now.
Jim
re you sure that the two switches in the bottom loop aren't reversing sections? They sure look to me like they would turn trains back the way they came.
They look that way but they don't reverse the train. All they do is shorten or lengthen the mainline run. The plan was made using atlas software which allows you to check for shorts. The locos and cars I have are based on prototypes built in the 30's through the 50's. So 1st generation diesels like RS3, GP-7, H16-44, and small steam like 4-4-0, 0-6-0t, 2-8-0 and 2-10-0 is what I'll be running. As I'm handicapped, I have the layout set at 32" and sitting in my chair puts it at the right height. The only time I'll stand is for switching and using the turntable. As Jim pointed out, sitting is a wise thing.
I run 4-4-0 4-6-0 2-6-0 2-8-2 on my current 18 no problem
I run the 4-8-2 and the 2-8-4 on the 22 no problem
The 4-8-4 will run on the 22 buts looks weird from above so it is off the roster
All my freight are 40 ft or less
My Overland Pass Cars are 50 but I have others at 40 and 34
My new layout will be 24 and 22
Right now I'm in the process of modifying the buss system to include the new track and add a few needed feeders at spots that are in need. The yards in the plan have been slightly modified using yard ladders. All #4 lefts on the left and #4 rights on the right, all code 83 atlas custom lines. The #4's on the right needed to be away from mail line on the right so it, the main line, could be hidden easily. The outside main line is complete except for the number 6 switch below the 60 degree crossover. The inside main line is double tracked from the yard at the left, behind the round house and all the way to the yet to be installed crossover on the bottom.
The lower inside main line is complete from where the 2 loops are at the left to the sidings on the right. All new track need feeders. I'm waiting for my #6 switch, 60 degree crossover and flex track to complete the inside loop , the area around the crossover and the yards. All turnouts will have to be re-wired as many were moved and to will not be used.
The turntable is on the bench for lubing and will be put back in shortly. The round house will get some lights and be hooked up to the decoder that controls the turntable.
Dear pdlethbridge,
If you want to follow NMRA recommendations for track center spacing, you need more than 2" spacing near your mentioned 20" and 22" radii to avoid overhang crashes:
http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/s-8.html
If I am interpreting the table (HO class 2) and doing the math correctly,
Outer Radius, SPacing to Inner Radius
OR, SPIR
22", 2-1/8"
I also see 24"R sectional curves on the layout:
24", 2-3/32"
I don't think I see any 18" R sectional curves on your layout.
It's desirable to keep things consistent everywhere on the layout, so use the worst case (wider) 2-1/8" spacing to the inner curve, which will be formed by flex track.
22"R and 19-7/8"R pair,
24"R and 21-7/8"R pair.
Alternatively, if you want to "anchor" at 22"R sectional track,
24-1/8"R (flex) and 22"R pair.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
I have a 2"minimum on the straights and more on curves. As one loco will be running at a time, I'm sure that it won't hit another train as it goes by. I got my first NMRA gauge when I joined the NMRA in the 60's.
Ah, I see.
Your layout is a one track loop (easily seen as one track on the bottom loop) with a very long inside passing siding that crosses itself just off the bottom loop.
Joe Satnik
There you go, you got it! It has the advantage of actually being two rail-roads in one. I can do a single loop on the out side or get a much longer run by taking the bottom switch across the 60 degree crossing and make it like a folded dog bone. I am glad there are no reversing sections other than the turn table.
I just started laying the flex track left side inner loop and it is in the neighborhood of 19 1/2+" radius.
As my table is topped with homasote and flat it is easy to get my curves as perfect as possible. I use a 1"x2"x24" With a screw at one end and radius marks at the other. When I come to a nail hole I have my trusty compass check for radius and I do that for every hole. Works great! I have 2 tracks connected to the 60 deg. crossing and they have been tested as has the left hand inner loop. I have no dead spots or shorts.
All that's left of the mainline is the last track to the 60 deg. crossing. It's in but has to be cut to fit at the crossing, and the track to the right of the lowest switch, a #6, to the outside curve. That may be the most difficult because it is in a very hard to get to area. Hopefully I'll post pictures next week. It may take me that long to rest up from what I've done so far. ;D ;D
Quote from: pdlethbridge on April 07, 2010, 03:48:38 AM
As my table is topped with homasote and flat it is easy to get my curves as perfect as possible. I use a 1"x2"x24" With a screw at one end and radius marks at the other. When I come to a nail hole I have my trusty compass check for radius and I do that for every hole. Works great! I have 2 tracks connected to the 60 deg. crossing and they have been tested as has the left hand inner loop. I have no dead spots or shorts.
All that's left of the mainline is the last track to the 60 deg. crossing. It's in but has to be cut to fit at the crossing, and the track to the right of the lowest switch, a #6, to the outside curve. That may be the most difficult because it is in a very hard to get to area. Hopefully I'll post pictures next week. It may take me that long to rest up from what I've done so far. ;D ;D
So you are laying right on the table top with no raising of the roadbed
I am debating whether to do that or use Wonderland Scenic roadbed over the homasote
Most mainlines had an elevation for water drainage
It looks fine. I have seen many places where the rails were not raised, particularly on older not well maintained roads.
It sure makes laying the track easier
Lastest news from the layout. I have completed the mainline. I laid the last piece of track tonight and have just finished running 2 engines a few laps each. It's so cool to have a mainline that is twice the length. I was planning on reinstalling all the newly moved switches. That will take a few days as all switches have moved even a little. The wiring will involve 3 DS64s that I use to help control from my hand held controller (NCE) As the switches were moved, new holes for the wires will have to be drilled. Only one set of switches will be operated together, all the rest are singles. Those 2 switches will be the ones leading to the crossover in the lower right.
As all the switch machines are off the switches, they will be easier to wire at my work bench.
P.D.,
Following your progress with interest. Any chance you'll throw a few photos in to whet our appetite?
Regards,
Jonathan
I hope so, I'm handicapped so all things go ssssllloooowwww!
I'd like to see it working. Then, maybe I could understand it, compared to my simple layout. Crossovers intrigue me when I see them at train shows.
It might take me a few days, but I'll try to post pictures. I just can't work as fast as I'd like. The switches will have to be rewired first and tested and that should take maybe a week or 2. All the cars and locos are packed away for now.
I'll be laying some more track in the yard to the left, but right now it is used for tools and track supplies. The other end has the buildings and other stuff on it. I added some ties where I had cut them for the rail joiners, so now there are no bare spots between sections of track. Every thing seems to run smoothly with no slow downs or flickering lights.
While I was looking into where the Maine Central used crossings, I found that they crossed a Boston and Maine line in New Hampshire and were until recently, still using a Ball signal. Guess I'm going to make one.
Look at the photos near the bottom of the page
http://www.thebluecomet.com/mecmountain.html (http://www.thebluecomet.com/mecmountain.html)
I keep looking at your track plan, enjoying the cleverness of your design. It has so many advantages: trains can reverse directions, and tracks, on the double track mainline, without a reverse loop. (If DCC) you can run multiple trains, only having to pay attention to one shared turnaround. Those are just a couple.
Did you follow a published track plan, or did you have a moment of inspiration?
The only disadvantage I can see is the possibility of a long train meeting itself at the crossing, if you set the turnouts to run continuously on the inner loop.
Great plan, man.
Regards,
Jonathan
It basically started out as a folded over dogbone with the right tracks climbing a hill to go over the lower tracks. When I looked at the plan, I could see that I wouldn't need a grade, just some switches and a crossing. If you look at the plan, pretend that the right pair of tracks are above the left pair.
I have the ability to control the passing siding switches individually and my trains won't be any longer than 10 cars
A little more progress tonight. I got three switches wired correctly to the first of 3 DS64 units. These let me control my turnouts from my hand held power cab. A nice feature! I also remounted the control panel for the power cab to a location that gives me better access to all my tracks. I also wired up a couple of more switch machines so they will be ready to install on the layout. Now I have to get more wire for the other 9 switch machines.
I just finished the wiring of the 4 turnouts to the first DS64. They all work the same, 1 is straight and 2 is curved on the power cab. The second Ds64 is ready to be installed in its new location. It will be centered more to the turnouts it controls.
Everything will be out of sight in one form or other. I have material for the skirt that will hide the legs and the things I store under the layout. I plan on using a small building to hide the controls for the turntable.
I hooked up the last of the DS64's to my switch machines and everything is running fine. All my DS64's have been moved to better position them to the switches they control and to allow the skirt to hide them. All is going well in the Flour city ( old name because of the abundance of flour mills, present name for Rochester is the flower city)
I was running 2 engines tonight and was having a ball. I did notice that one switch I use really doesn't need a switch motor as the engines are always coming from the 2 track side from either route. It would make sense to eliminate it all together and let the engine throw the switch. If I do any reverse moves, it would be rare and I would only go where the switch was thrown. Any thoughts?
Well, it's your railroad, but on mine, that would be unacceptable because: Derailments are Unacceptable.
Any switch machine uses a spring to hold the points in place. Peco uses a spring built into the turnout. Some manual ground throws are un-sprung, requiring the modeler to put a spring in the linkage. When you run through a turnout against the points, the spring resists the point movement. A diesel will probably weigh enough to push the points out of the way, but leading trucks on steam locos or cars like flat cars, that are difficult to bring up to standard weight, might not be able to overcome the force of the spring and be derailed.
Additionally, you are inviting electrical problems. Insulated frog turnouts are probably okay, but any sort of wiring that powers the frog will cause a short. And remember that DCC is much less tolerant of momentary shorts than straight DC.
In the interest of full disclosure, LOL, I have to tell you that trolley lines often used spring loaded switches in reverse loops and similar situations where the direction of travel was always the same. Trolley modelers do the same thing, but both rails are the same polarity, so there are no electrical issues.
Old Timer
Well, I have the same issue. The trains are always running in the same direction, from 2 tracks to one. There is no chance for derailment because the wheels of the engine or car would close the points of my atlas code 83 custom line turnouts. They move very easily. As I'm always moving through the frog first, there shouldn't be a problem. I will be testing it today with cars, diesels and steam to see if there are any problems. The switch machine will go back on if the is. If I wanted to, I could always wire those 2 turnouts together.
P.D.,
I have a siding, where the trains always exit, or pass by, in the same direction. I never put a switch machine in the code 83 #6 Atlas custom turnout (I did drill the hole for the machine, just in case). Both steam and diesels push the points out of the way with no problems, neither shorts nor derailments. I've done it so much, I never even think about that turnout. Saved a few bucks as well.
There's that two cents. Here's two more:
Recently, I've started installing a bent wire 'spring' that connects from the hole in the throw bar to the first nail hole in the turnout. These are for the turnouts I can reach easily. I think I first read the idea in a post from ABC. Works like a charm.
Still have to use machines for the out-of-reach turnouts.
Regards,
Jonathan
and for those switches I can reach, I use caboose ground throws.
Jonathan, I'm glad the spring "switch machine" is working for you. It was my post and I was afraid I hadn't explained it that well. Wish it was my idea, but it isn't. The idea came from an article in Model Railroader several years ago.
Old Timer
Thanks for sharing the info, Old Timer. You helped me out greatly.
I couldn't believe how quick and easy it was to size and bend the wire to shape. I have found, if you don't bend the wire all the way to 90 degrees, the wire will stay in its holes without coming loose. Can't recall if you mentioned that, too, but it just occurred to me as I was fitting the wire into the holes.
Regards,
Jonathan
p.s. Sorry, PD, guess I highjacked a bit.
I'll take you out to the shed later! :o :o :o
Well, here are the photos
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/pdleth/101_0282.jpg?t=1271818150)
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/pdleth/101_0281.jpg?t=1271818176)
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/pdleth/101_0280.jpg?t=1271818207)
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/pdleth/101_0279.jpg?t=1271818233)
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/pdleth/101_0277.jpg?t=1271818275)
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/pdleth/101_0276.jpg?t=1271818301)
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/pdleth/101_0274.jpg?t=1271818327)
In this view notice a couple of things. Most noticeably the buss wires with the suitcase clips, and the white object just below my NCE power cab is 1 of the 3 DS 64's from Digitrax that control my switches.
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/pdleth/101_0273.jpg?t=1271818348)
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/pdleth/101_0272.jpg?t=1271818371)
Nice Layout! Is that a Walthers 90' Turntable?
What radius are you using for the inside and outside curves?
Always nice to look at layout in progress pics
As they say a pic is worth 10k words
The turntable is a 90' Walthers unit that I built and motorized. It is decoder equipped for speed and turning on and off the roundhouse lights. The curves are 19 1/2" r and 22" r on the layout. Table is supported by 1" x 2" framing with 2" x 2" legs set at 32 " high. It's great for viewing sitting down. The table top is 1/2" plywood under 1/2" homasote. Works great. The curves are slightly elevated on the outside by about 1/32". Looks great and no operating problems. I use 3-4' double fluorescents for lighting. The big panels are 4' x 4' while the smaller ones are 2' x 4'. Actually the layout is constructed using the 2' x 4' sections everywhere. I just doubled them on the ends.
P.D.;
90-foot table, 19-inch curves, 10-car trains--just the sort of layout for an operation in New England with 2-8-2s and 4-6-2's as the biggest power, and secondary assignments handled by your beloved 2-6-0s; nice, relaxing operating style, too.
Almost enough to make one reconsider big-time (though still relaxed, if you know the crews on the C&O and N&W/Virginian) coal haulers in West Virginia!
It's so relaxed it sometimes puts me to sleep ;D
Great set up, PD. Thanks for sharing!
You left me wanting more--particularly, the crossing/turnaround at the far end. Got just a taste in your last photo. Looks like worlds of fun.
What will you use for backdrops?
Regards,
Jonathan
Is this one of your first layouts?
I like the track plan. The "S" curves provide even even distribution of ware to the flanges.
Are the curves are laid with a mix of Flex track and Sectional track?
I been planning on building a new layout for some time but have not settled on a track plan yet.
I have had trains since the 50's so I don't think this is the first layout, maybe about the 8th . There is a mix of code 83 flex and sectional track
Great track plan. It should be a lot of fun to run. And your backgrounds! What can I say? They are literally luminous!
more photos, this is the other end
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/pdleth/101_0283.jpg?t=1271986425)
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx330/pdleth/101_0284.jpg?t=1271986452)
P.D.,
I'll say it again. That is a clever design. You get an Attaboy...
Regards,
Jonathan
Despite the fact it is not quite yet finished, this looks like a fun layout!
Continous Running, Sidings, switching yards, a diamond,Point A to B operation, or staging areas or used for both?, even has a turn table.
I like seeing some of all of that in a layout, not just limited to one type of operation.
At my age, I doubt I'll be able to finish it but I'll make a huge dent in it!
Have you drawn up the track plan or just built it out of memory?
Again it looks very good.
I used the atlas software to draw what is shown on the first page of this thread.
What era do you model? what type scenery are you planing to install?
late steam and early diesel, I also have some modern units. typical new england type operation.