I was at berea today (as usual) i talked to my dad and we decided to check out rock port. We caught a coal with back engines, a NS. & CN dash8s! i knew they would cut off the power and send them to rockport so i told him to go to the Brook park RTA station parking lot. I got my shots and showed him them. A RTA cop noticed me and started to walk over. I just figured he was curious. He asked us if we knew about the bombing in Moscow, that... was a huge surprise. My dad said yea and the cop said well, you cant tape trains here.
First off, Why would a 14 year old boy tapeing a train be a threat?! I tape at triskett a lot and i actually get a friendly wave from them. I even went when a bombing was reported, no problem. So why now? Also, why do they think im a threat? I plan on e-mailing them later but for now, I'd like to get a little more info about this situation.
Any info would be great.
Stuff happens and sometimes there is nothing you can do about it.
Rich
this is a debate that keeps coming up. it has been well covered in trains magazine over the years. bottom line: you are allowed to photograph from public property which the rta station would seem to be. unfortunately, some cops are either not aware of this, or like to intimidate people. somewhere online there is a photographer's bill of rights. i would suggest that you find it and print out a copy.
what i would have done, especially if the officer in question was rude or belligerent, is to contact somebody at rta headquarters and ask what their policy is on photography. if they say yes, it is permitted from the parking lot i would give them the officer's name and/or badge number and explain how you were trerated, and that he obviously hasn't gotten the message.
The man was kind, he seemed sorta uncomfortable saying it. Thanks for the info!
If you are in the U.S.A.
If you are on railroad property they can order you to leave. however if you are on public land you can take as many pictures and video tapes as you like. with respect to the officer your Dad needs to ask him to show you the code for the law in his book or an addendum to his book of codes. some law enforcement has lost all sight of common sense and our rights as citizens.
don't get yourself in trouble, be respectful but don't let a bully ruin your fun.
My dad was a Deputy Sheriff, one of the reasons he retired early was because he said he could not stand working with bullies or guys who were bullied as children getting back at society.
NM
alright, i just read "The Photographer's Rights" ( http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf ) and it seems i should be alright. I'm gonna keep a copy for when i go to triskett.
NM, true, I saw 4 Rta cops on the platform once and they were pretty fed up with this guy caught with weed. I cant see how someone could live with a career like that! Last thing i want to do is make it worse for them.
Jet, unfortunately an event like Moscow puts everyone on edge. The bomber in Moscow was a 17 year old. Over paranoia is the name of the game.
I was on the B&M's Fitchburg Division today waiting to get pictures of a detouring freight trains (for the first time in 20 years they're running through freights on the east end of the Fitchburg Route) and had a conversation with a Police Officer who came over to debunk any threat. When they ask, just be pleasant and tell them why your there. The officer I talked to was a decent guy as are most, and started telling stories of the B&M freights and circus trains that ran through town when he was a kid, eventually leaving. It's sad that you can't really take pictures without being suspected, but there's not much else you can do rather than be friendly and not screw things over for the rest of us by being hostile.
It is unfortunate. World events do create more nervous precautions in this country, for good reason. Folks in the peace and security profession are more alert and on edge these days. They have to be. We were always safe from radical violence, until 9 years ago. Now, we are forced to be more vigilant. I agree most authority figures want to be as accomodating as possible. I think we have to understand the tough position they are in these days.
Regards,
Jonathan
And guess what?.....the terrorist groups won......again.
Every time something like this happens (a 14 year old not allowed to tape a train).....the terrorists have won...again.
Every time you have to remove your shoes at the airport....they won....again.
Every time some security/police/military over-reacts to a once normal situation....the terrorists have won....again.
Our global experiment has gone horribly awry.
Sid
jonathan,
i think you have to put things in historical perspective. this problem with security, no matter what they want you to believe, didn't begin with 9-11-2001. there were attempts on the world trade centers many years prior to that, some lunatic blew up a federal building in 1994, the weather underground and other groups engaged in terrorism in the 1960s and 1970s, and there was always the threat of espionage and sabotage. in the late 1930s some nut case derailed a southern pacific streamliner in the nevada desert with great loss of life.
the point i am trying to make is, the threat has always been there, but the paranoia is new. previous to 9-11 nobody much cared about photographers as long as you weren't trespassing. now we have"terrorists" under every rock according to them......
by all means, be respectful when confronted, but know your rights. and if those rights are violated, follow up with complaints to that officer's superiors. that is the only way we are going to get the balance between rights and legitimate security concerns back in balance.
I hardly think there are any terrorist groups who will be celebrating that we have to take our shoes off in the airport.
I recently took a flight where in a last minute rush to pack I stuffed a brand new still in it's box full size tube of toothpaste in my carry on luggage, completely forgetting about the maximum volume rules until it was found by the vigilant operator of the baggage X-ray machine. Was I upset when they confiscated it? No. I was pleased to see the security in place was effective.
Modern times bring modern threats. It's an unfortunate aspect of human nature that a small section of society will seek to exploit anything in order to further their terroristic goals and disrupt what we see as 'a normal life'. So normal has to change. It has been this was throughout the whole of history. Someone discovered fire, keeps you nice and warm and you can cook stuff. Then someone discovered you can burn villages etc. Someone found how to forge steel, what was it mostly used for? Weapons so the soldier in the battlefield had to change their normal dress to wearing those heavy cumbersome suits of armor. Some bright spark came up with the internet, now we all need a virus checker and firewall on our computers to stop someone else invading our own little cyber worlds.
PD is right, one of the Moscow bombers was 17. So your day was a little spoiled through neither party fully knowing the laws, not as bad a day as if you were a passenger on a train which was the target of an attack. Imagine how you or your family would feel if the attack could have been stopped if a cop had been a little more 'paranoid' over someone who looked like a railfan, but was in fact surveying where to plant a bomb?
Was the cop over paranoid? Maybe. Better than risking an attack? Definitely.
Just my 2c.
Dan
The terrorism started when President Reagan put Marines into Lebanon.
You think the cops in Berea are going too far? Come to NYC and ride the subwqys! They check all the baggage and, if you really want trouble, start to film. Since the subways are under MTA control, not NYC, they have the right (they claim) to forbid filming. A filmmaker, or anybody else, can get a permit. By the way, New Yorkers don't like strangers filming them. It is an invitation for trouble.
The silly thing is that the NYC subway system has been well documented over the years. A smart terrorist could do research in the library of Grand Central Terminal (yes, there is a railroad library in the building.) One of the subway fan groups meet there regularly.
A friend teaches engineering. He found blueprints to several bridges (including the associated underground structure) in the main library on 42nd street. There are few secrets.
People need to respect railroad property and seeking permission goes a long way in letting you stay where you may not belong!
Quote from: Cooped on April 04, 2010, 09:35:59 AM
I hardly think there are any terrorist groups who will be celebrating that we have to take our shoes off in the airport.
Taking our shoes off, loosing our toothpaste, long lineups at security, being banned from taking photos, and a thousand more. All minor inconveniences Minor inconveniences that multiplied by millions of times a day are costly and constant reminders that somebody who does not like us is quite successfully manipulating us just to demonstrate their power over us. Like the school yard bully who forced us to take the long way home to avoid him, they use our fears against us to continually remind us of their presence. I have to agree with WoundedBear that all these little inconveniences are small wins for the terrorists, and multiplied by their millions, add up to large wins.
Jim
Now I have to ask, what would terrorists be doing in Canada? ??? ??? ??? ???
Probably trying to mosey on over across the border into the U.S., thank goodness for the Mounties.
"...Stuff happens and sometimes there is nothing you can do about it..."
Wrong. Vote out those who use fear and "continual war" as tools for their political gain. Vote in those who will hopefully win/end it.
"...a small section of society will seek to...disrupt what we see as 'a normal life'. So normal has to change..."
I don't agree. I'm not much for surrendering, and I see that as surrender.
"...Better than risking an attack? Definitely..."
No. If you really are afraid of an attack, and truly want to stop any chance, just shut down the railroads. That would be effective. The BS this kid suffered is not. Just another kid who may grow up to distrust authority and ignore, amidst the noise, the many real threats we face.
Thanks to excessive fear and paranoia, we railfans have ended up on the front lines of the fight for keeping America from becoming just another police state. I worked in Dubai, and there was no crime to speak of there. However, they put people in jail for kissing. Police states are very secure, I would rather be very free. I will film to my heart's content. Including filming and reporting anyone doing things that are actually suspicious. We can help the railroads and the nation much more than the few security guards out there.
Wounded- I don't know if this toothpaste story is better or worse than yours. A couple of years ago my wife and I were to fly away on a vacation. She had a large (7 oz or so) toothpast tube but it was mostly gone so she figured she was well within the 3.5 oz limit, or whatever it is. Wrongo. Despite the well documented difficulties of putting something back into a toothpaste tube, the security people confiscated hers because the nearly-empty tube was too large. Go figure.
As for the filming of trains regulations, I think they are good ones, and not so new. Train crews and maintenance people have been tasked with keeping their eyes out for suspiscious things for many decades. And it's not necessarily about passenger trains which rarely crash and don't generally have many casualties when they do. How would you like to be living in some small town somewhere when a train full of chlorine or such like passes through in the middle of the night and some terrorists who have been surveiling the rails blows it up? The human costs could very quickly surpass even those from 9/11. Think of the dead (by hideous means to boot) and the injured who would suffer and need care for the rest of their lives. So, like it or not, we'll have to live with some restrictions. That's not new; there have always been rules.
These guys are trying to enforce the "Uniform Bluffing Code"--they have no basis in law as you have seen in the "rights of Photographers"
gj
Considering the fact that google earth and other sites exist showing every square inch of earth, I think hassling a kid and his dad for filming a train rolling by just shows a lack of intelligent and or common sense.
If they were there to plan something bad all that cop did is let them know that is not the place to do it, if he wanted to do something effective he should have taken their Id's ran their names and then told them sorry for the inconvenience, explained he was being vigilant, and told them have a nice day filming.
NM
Unless they sabotaged my bike Monday, something is puzzling me. I talked to my friend, the only other person i know who is tapeing the RTA lines these days and he's had no trouble. I thought do a test so i went to triskett Monday with no trouble for 2 hours and then on Tuesday where i went all out for 6 hours and on the 5th hour, who to come? An RTA COP of course! :P And again, the nervous acting. This time, he literally pulled up to where i was like it was a parking spot! i just saw him circle and figured it was a person who saw me before. nope, pulled all the way up! Re-enactment of the chat.
jet: *nods*
Cop: Hi, what are you doing?
jet: Just watching trains
Cop: Are you a student?
jet:mehh.. more of a hobby.
Cop ok... *about to leave but notices my camerae which i really didn't try to hide*... takeing pictures?
jet:(CRAP! im in for it now!) yep.
Cop: OK, that's fine just don't jump the fence.
jet: alright see ya.
I was waiting for the "BOMB THREAT" part to kick in! Either these 2 cops were in a hurry, or didn't see me as a threat. Well, at least i still got one place left to go! ;D