>:(
Hey all,
I purchased a Spectrum 2-8-0 two weeks ago, and after running it for awhile for the initial break-in period, the unit has exhibited serious problems. After only a few hours, locomotive started losing power and eventually seized up. Headlight burns very dimly. The loco also emits a peculiar odor almost resembling burning plastic... Lubrication provided no help. Upon closer examination, motor seems frozen or bound up. The gears appear intact, but it's too hard to tell. I've tried various troubleshooting techniques, all to no avail.
Out of curiosity, has anyone else received a bad 2-8-0 and sent it back for repair/replacement? This is my first experience with the Spectrum line, and so far I'm less than impressed.... FWIW, I have sent the loco back. Just wondering if I did get a bad unit and whether or not Bachmann will make good on the repair/replacement.
Regards,
Brad
Brad,
Make a copy of your purchase receipt, write a short note discribing the problem, and mail the loco to the service address listed in your paper work or on this web site.
They will take care of it for you, rest assured. They are very good about the warranty.
I have over 30 Spectrum steam locos including 8 copies of the 2-8-0. out of my whole gorup of 30+ I have had to send back three, non of which were 2-8-0's. In evey case they send a new loco that ran perfectly.
The only down side is sometimes they are a little slow. The service department staff is small, and they work hard to give everyone very personal service - once they get to your loco. But again, they will make it good.
All my Spectrum steamers are good running and good looking locos. Sorry you got a bad one - it does happen from time to time.
Sheldon
Thanks, Sheldon. Reading these forums has given me great confidence that Bachmann will take care in making sure I get a good replacement. For the record, I model mostly Athearn/Atlas/Intermountain, but the Spectrum steamers sure look nice... I strongly suspect the motor has shorted out--which would explain the "burning" smell, and why the headlight barely comes on. I should also add that it tripped my power supply too, which strongly suggests an electrical fault/malfunction somewhere in the unit.
Thanks again. Will keep everyone advised as to the situation.
-Brad
Brad,
Are you running DC or DCC?
Is the loco DC or DCC?
Sheldon
Just DC for now. Not really going for DCC yet... I still don't think the "bugs" have been ironed out for DCC.
I Too have bought a Bachmann 2-8-0 Ex Spectrum now "Standard" Line
B&O ENG 2784 and the engine right out of the box had problems, The engine sises up and stalls out. It's defiantly a motor problem or so I believe.
This unit came DCC Equipped.
Now It's sitting in it's box waiting for me to get funding together to send it back to Bachmann.
This may be due to the new type motors installed since they downgraded the model to the "Standard" Line.
Bachmann, What's this going to cost me to replace a factory defective engine?
I know Bachmann makes some nice steam engines, I have several K4's and they run flawlessly I absolutely love them!
Mine ran fine right out of the box, it was only after a few hours that my problems started. First it started off as a "grinding" noise, kind of like the gears were stripped or it needed a serious lube job. Took the bottom plate off and there was PLENTY of lubrication on all moving parts... After trying again, the unit ran slower and slower until BOOM-she just quit dead in her tracks--literally. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Not even the faintest buzzing sound coming from it. The headlight went really dim and the "overload" protector tripped on my power supply...
Strange. I'm wondering just how widespread this issue is, and whether or not it is confined to a specific batch of bad units that somehow slipped by quality control? We'll see when I get the loco back.
-Brad
Mine pretty much did the same thing, just right out of the box.
If it's fairly new--return it. That's what I did. It's 100% covered under the warranty for the first year. Providing of course you've saved your receipt. If not, you'll have to fork over some dough unless you sent in the warranty card, which I had no time to do since the unit failed early.
I was discussing this with a modeler on another forum and he told me this much: Either these things will work right out of the box, or they won't. It's as simple as that. IOW, if the loco works fine and gets through the initial "break-in" period without any problems, then you're in good shape. If not, send it back. We pay good money for these things and should be treated accordingly.
-Brad
These are probably fairly isolated incidents. I got yet another 2-8-0 and the total is up to six and I have yet to have any issues, and my Bachmann loco count is well over 60 locos now and I have had a total of 3 issues among all of them, all of which have been rectified in a timely manner. My issues were with an Erie 2-10-0 decapod, a 4-8-4 GS-4 SP Daylight, and a UP 0-6-0 with Vandy tender. All were repaired or replaced and run great.
As long as you folks bought your locos from factory authorized dealers you will be able to return them to Bachmann within the 1st year of ownership provided it was not due to your actions and you are considered the 1st owner. For example, if you bought the loco from many dealers on ebay excluding places like the favorite spot then it technically is not fully covered but will be repaired for a nominal fee for the lifetime of the loco and the original owner. Call your dealer or even better call Bachmann service for more information and what your options are at this time.
Also as a side note the warranty card in itself is not sufficient at least that is what the service guy said when I sent in my GS-4, he said I still needed to include a copy of my receipt of purchase.
For the record, I too had issues with my 2-8-0 right out of the box. Western Pacific 2-8-0 Item#11421. Same problem that Diddley mentioned. Ran for about 30 minutes and she lost power and seized up. The gears sounded like a coffee grinder too. Anyway, I returned it to Bachmann who sent me a brand new one 4 weeks later and so far, so good. Interesting. Let me know how things go when you get your engine back.
I'm wondering if perhaps, just perhaps, we got an early run of the 2-8-0's that may have "gone bad" just by sitting on the shelf? I see that all Bachmann 2-8-0's are now DCC equipped. Mine wasn't...
Brad, you received very old stock because they have had DCC for quite a long time.
Bingo... I suspected as much. So, if Bachmann sends me a new DCC unit, exactly what(if anything)do I need to do to run it with DC?
Here's something to consider, the current 2-8-0 and the former 2-8-0 are not the same product. Similar to how there is an 0-6-0 that is DC and a 0-6-0 that is DCC that are currently being produced. For some really really old items Bachmann does not replace them with their newer, modern, state of the art counterpart, sometimes they will replace them with say a GP-40. So, if you bought a non-DCC unit you may receive a non-DCC unit in return and they will attempt to repair your original unit first before sending you a new replacement.
Brad what store did you buy this loco from? Was it brick and mortar or online? If the store you bought it from is not a factory authorized dealer then your product is not under the full warranty and you would have to pay a nominal fee of $25 for service.
OK, this too makes sense. Unless the problem is a minor one, I don't see how the loco is salvageable. Since I could detect an acrid burning smell, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if something has melted inside too...
The store I purchased it from: Chinook & Hobby West, Calgary, AB. It's a full-sized stand-alone building... I would assume they are an authorized dealer...
Yep, most brick & mortars are, so you should be fine. It will be interesting to see what your replacement is though.. But if you do get a DCC loco back, you don't need to make any changes, but replacing the decoder with the two metal jumpers improves DC operation compared to leaving the decoder in, but it will still run on DC if you leave the decoder in.
I sent in my 2-8-0 that had crashed on the floor three times and they are sending me a new unit (also sent the $25) so I hope it will be a spectrum line and not standard... as I read this I am wondering ... maybe they saved a lot of the spectrum engines to send as replacements of damaged spectrum engines...I just hope there are no functionality problems as my little engineer will be crushed
Quote from: full maxx on April 21, 2010, 10:21:24 PMI sent in my 2-8-0 that had crashed on the floor three times and they are sending me a new unit (also sent the $25) so I hope it will be a spectrum line and not standard... as I read this I am wondering ... maybe they saved a lot of the spectrum engines to send as replacements of damaged spectrum engines...I just hope there are no functionality problems as my little engineer will be crushed
I am confused, potentially because you may be confused. Brad's issue was in that he had a non-DCC Spectrum unit that was really old. The now standard line 2-8-0's come with DCC and are equivalent in every piece except for they have a 3-pole instead of a 5-pole motor,
that is the only difference there are no other differences (except the standard line loco is cheaper).
ABC-
No, you are confused because you are confused. Read Full Maxx's post again. He is explicit that his issue was a broken loco, not a frying loco, and he states he hopes he will get an older Spectrum replacement instead of the newer non-Spectrum loco with a lesser motor. He is merely stating that he hopes his replacement loco has no problems. I agree with him and hope he gets a loco which is equivalent to what broke.
Quote from: Doneldon on April 22, 2010, 12:03:16 AMHe is explicit that his issue was a broken loco, not a frying loco, and he states he hopes he will get an older Spectrum replacement instead of the newer non-Spectrum loco with a lesser motor.
The locomotives are equivalent, the motors are also equivalent even though the former had 5 poles and the later has 3 poles, the 3 pole motor actually runs a little better than its predecessor, the 5 pole motor. There's absolutely nothing wrong with any of the standard line 2-8-0's, I know have 2 of them and 5 of the spectrum, and the newer standard line ones actually perform a little better than the older spectrum ones. There never was an issue with the standard line 2-8-0s. I know several people who bought Bachmann 2-8-0s on my and others recommendation, and out of the whole lot there has been nothing but flawless operation. Often times people's locos won't run as well as they like initially, but after breaking them in they run fine. But instead of breaking them in the attempt to lubricate the loco and in the process over-lubricate the loco or use non-plastic-compatible lubes causing poor running.
The bottom line is that the standard line motor is not inferior, but actually slightly superior or equivalent to the spectrum motor.
ABC-
Please relax, in whatever color floats your boat, er, sends your train down the track. Did you like my turnout from rhyming to alliteration?
D
Now it's me who's confused--LOL. I though that "Spectrum" was now Bachmann's standard line for steamers??? In any event, it would seem as though I did get an old unit. Who knows how long it sat at the store? For $180/Canadian, they better come through on this--LOL.
The locomotive was originally made in the Bachmann Spectrum line. The Bachmann Spectrum line is the premier or top line for Bachmann. Just this particular locomotive was transferred to the standard line because they do not feel that it meets the quality of the rest of the spectrum line locos. As the release more and more spectrum locos the original spectrum locos aren't going to be as good as the newer spectrum locos.
Bo-
ABC is right. It's not that Bachmann has decreased the quality of their Consolidations so they don't live up to Spectrum standards, so much as that the Spectrum standards have improved to the point that some of the older designs (and the Connie is getting a little long in the tooth) aren't up to the improved standards of the newest products.
If I had to, I would predict that Bachmann will update the Connie and reintroduce it to the Spectrum line some day. The 2-8-0 was not only one of the most popular (read, "lots of them were sold") locos in real life; Bachmann also sold a gazillion of them and made tons of money doing so. A follow-on, updated Spectrum Connie would certainly yield another pile of cash, and it would be a lot cheaper in real dollars for them to update what they already have than it was to start from scratch those many years ago when they put out the original Spectrum 2-8-0. And it would also be cheaper than starting a whole new locomotive which wasn't as big of a seller to the 1:1 railroads as the Connie was, and would probably not generate as much interest (equals sales) in the 1:87 world.
D
wait isn't it 1:78
No, it is !:87.
AND, actually, they where using a skew wound three pole motor when they still came in Spectrum boxes. They had made that change some time ago.
The "NEW" Standard line 2-8-0 is EXACTLY the same as the Spectrum version that came right before it. The packaging, the lack of sound versions, and the limited roadname selection are the only differences.
The packaging alone saved them a lot of money in production and shipping.
Over the years they have used several different motors, all the same in quality and performance - just ask me, I have eight Bachmann 2-8-0's that span almost every production run, they all run the same. Some with straight wound 5 pole motors, some with skew wound 3 pole motors.
Down grading the 2-8-0 to the Standard line is like another poster said, a reflection of increased standards for the Spectrum line, not a reduction in quality or features of the 2-8-0. They also did this to the GE 70 Ton loco. I have both versins of those as well. The new Standard version is actually much better than the Spectrum version from 15 years ago.
To the OP, if your 2-8-0 came in a black box, it is older production, maybe 3-4 years. It is unlikely that it "went bad" on the shelf, except that dried up gear grease may have caused it to run bad and damage itself.
But again, Bachmann will take care of it.
Sheldon
Mine wasn't DCC equipped either. It must be an older unit since the Western Pacific roadname isn't even offered in the 2-8-0 anymore. I sent mine off for repair today. I spoke to a girl named Laura at Customer Service and she told me the turnaround was approximately 4 weeks...
Good luck, Diddley. Let's hope our stories both have a happy ending...
I think they did that with the H16-44, it was a spectrum unit when I bought it. Not any more
My 2-8-0 came in an oversized black box with gold lettering... The engine was also surrounded by some kind of spongy-foam material which was also black... Where these the old runs?
Moulds wear out. Those finely detailed castings that we admired so much become slightly less detailed each time another one is removed from the mould, taking a tiny amount of the mould with it. Spectrum quality is as much in the looks as the performance. When the looks start to deteriorate, the models get down graded.
Remember the old 3 pole flat motors? With the feeble magnets, large gaps between field and armature, and lots of cogging? Today's can motors are not them. Skew wound to all but eliminate cogging, strong magnets and close spacing for improved efficiency and reduced current draw, a good 3 pole skew wound motor today can run as smoothly as a 12 pole straight slot motor of a couple of decades ago or a 5 pole skew wound less than a decade ago. We've come a long way.
Quote from: bruceallen123 on April 22, 2010, 09:32:38 PM
Mine wasn't DCC equipped either. It must be an older unit since the Western Pacific roadname isn't even offered in the 2-8-0 anymore. I sent mine off for repair today. I spoke to a girl named Laura at Customer Service and she told me the turnaround was approximately 4 weeks...
Good luck, Diddley. Let's hope our stories both have a happy ending...
Laura was who I talked to and she told me the same thing and its been less than 3 weeks and mine was in the mail yesterday
Quote from: full maxx on April 23, 2010, 12:37:26 AM
Quote from: bruceallen123 on April 22, 2010, 09:32:38 PM
Mine wasn't DCC equipped either. It must be an older unit since the Western Pacific roadname isn't even offered in the 2-8-0 anymore. I sent mine off for repair today. I spoke to a girl named Laura at Customer Service and she told me the turnaround was approximately 4 weeks...
Good luck, Diddley. Let's hope our stories both have a happy ending...
Laura was who I talked to and she told me the same thing and its been less than 3 weeks and mine was in the mail yesterday for the return trip...well the new one their sending
ok well the connie came in the mail yesterday but I have not been able to try it out yet and it is the standard line not the spectrum...so I'll let you all know how it runs tonight or tomorrow
Let us know how things work out...
So, were the old black boxed Spectrums the early models or not? My loco was from the 11000 run...
not sure about the black box 2-8-0 but both my diesels came in black boxes, how ever the new connie came in a blue box...much less and cheaper packaging and I must say she runs pretty good so far with no noise other than the rails clacking
here is a quik pic (http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb165/nitroburnr/DSC00012.jpg)
Sweet! Looking good, man! How's she run so far?
Nice road-B&O
Well she runs pretty good so far with the only sound being the rails clacking...the light is very dim tho, the other was a lot brighter
Nice pic. My favorite engine and roadname. Got a couple of those. They run great.
Regards,
Jonathan
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN0585.jpg)
DCC or DC?
all of mine...see there I go again, all of my little engineers are DCC
Quote from: Bo_Diddley on April 23, 2010, 11:14:36 PM
Let us know how things work out...
So, were the old black boxed Spectrums the early models or not? My loco was from the 11000 run...
My first 2-8-0 was #11417 (Baldwin Locomotive Works) if was of course DCC Ready, the foam insert in the box was extremely dense compared to the later inserts.
I miss the old black Spectrum boxes, the new boxes with their plastic within plastic inserts are more subject to damage I think.
Quote from: Pacific Northern on April 24, 2010, 02:26:42 PM
Quote from: Bo_Diddley on April 23, 2010, 11:14:36 PM
Let us know how things work out...
So, were the old black boxed Spectrums the early models or not? My loco was from the 11000 run...
My first 2-8-0 was #11417 (Baldwin Locomotive Works) if was of course DCC Ready, the foam insert in the box was extremely dense compared to the later inserts.
I miss the old black Spectrum boxes, the new boxes with their plastic within plastic inserts are more subject to damage I think.
agreed
Mine came in a black box too. What are they using now?
Quote from: Bo_Diddley on April 21, 2010, 12:01:07 AM
Mine ran fine right out of the box, it was only after a few hours that my problems started. First it started off as a "grinding" noise, kind of like the gears were stripped or it needed a serious lube job. Took the bottom plate off and there was PLENTY of lubrication on all moving parts... After trying again, the unit ran slower and slower until BOOM-she just quit dead in her tracks--literally. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Not even the faintest buzzing sound coming from it. The headlight went really dim and the "overload" protector tripped on my power supply...
Strange. I'm wondering just how widespread this issue is, and whether or not it is confined to a specific batch of bad units that somehow slipped by quality control? We'll see when I get the loco back.
-Brad
the one i Just got did not fare well either, started out as a low grinding noise then got louder, the loco stopped but
would start with a nudge. Noise got even louder and when it did run it was real jerky and would stop.
Sending it back Monday.
Very weird... What's the item number? Roadname? The saga deepens...
The 2-8-0 I just received is road name ...B&O... #2784 and here is the box and item # (http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb165/nitroburnr/100_0056.jpg)(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb165/nitroburnr/100_0057.jpg) the little engineer has ran it pretty good this weekend and it runs/sounds fine so maybe all the "bad" one are gone
Quote from: bruceallen123 on April 25, 2010, 05:18:37 AM
Very weird... What's the item number? Roadname? The saga deepens...
Item Number 51302, Santa Fe 2517
So, that now makes FOUR of us who've had trouble with these? I think something is up...
Did you run yours through the "break-in" period? Have you checked the "wipers" on the tender to make sure they're making good contact with the wheels? It amazes me that Quality Control lets these things slip through...
I have a whole bunch of 2-8-0s of various production runs and I've never had an issue with any of them, nor do I know anyone that has had an issue.
As I stated before, I firmly believe that these issues are from a bad batch that somehow slipped through QC. Perhaps yours do run fine. Ours don't and it strikes me as more than just a fluke...
You have to consider how many of these 2-8-0 are made in a production run, and it appears to be mostly isolated incidents, there would have to be at least a couple hundred with issues to even show up a blip on the radar, that is probably not even .01% of the locos.
I agree... But how can FOUR of us on the same forum--with the same loco--have the same problem? FWIW, I've got an el-cheapo Bachmann F7 that came in one of those pre-packaged department store sets, and it runs flawlessly... Go figure. :D
It is easily explained a lot of people come on this form just to say that they have an issue with their loco, which skews things a bit. If there were 20 people on the forum stating they had an issue that still would not be enough because of the increased probability of a person to use the forum if their loco doesn't work. Just look at the threads most of them are talking about a problem with their loco or whatever the case may be. I think there's about 10-15,000 people who have used this forum at some point in time, so that is about .001. But of those about half are in HO, and only two-thirds of which have/had a 2-8-0 or have a friend with a 2-8-0. So, if 20 people had this issue it would only account for .38% of people still not very significant.
Well IMO, anything and I do mean ANYTHING is an improvement over the old pancake motors they used years ago... Those things were a disgrace. Any engine that had one I would strip down and convert to a dummy. That's about all they were good for.
My 2-8-0 is awaiting shipment.. We'll see what kind of luck I have when I get it back.
Quote from: Bo_Diddley on April 25, 2010, 05:25:41 PM
So, that now makes FOUR of us who've had trouble with these? I think something is up...
Did you run yours through the "break-in" period? Have you checked the "wipers" on the tender to make sure they're making good contact with the wheels? It amazes me that Quality Control lets these things slip through...
Yes, that is what i was doing when the trouble started. Inspection using the Mk.I eyeball method, nothing appeared to be amiss, the noise seems to be coming from the motor area.
"Yes, that is what i was doing when the trouble started. Inspection using the Mk.I eyeball method, nothing appeared to be amiss, the noise seems to be coming from the motor area."
That's EXACTLY how mine went. Worked fine out of the box, it wasn't until about two hours into operation that things went sour. Terrible grinding noises coming from somewhere and losing power while running slower and slower until it just stopped for good--she ran out of coal I guess--LOL! Seriously though, I completely share your frustration. Certainly for this kind of money, they should behave better than this...
I do share in the frustration of buying a new locomotive just to find out that it is defective. After spending a fair amount of money I'd expect the engine to run flawlessly.
Understanding that these things are mass produced I do realize that some may pass through Q.C. and enter the market and tick a few of us off. Especially if the dealer we bought it from is loaded with the defected units.
I have 8 PRR K4s' are they run just fine. I bought a 2-8-0 recently and it has a sticking motor and gets runs erratically.
As said before It's probably 1/1000 units that are defective and as long as Bachmann is going to replace them at no cost to the customer then it's annoying but I can live with it.
My suggestion would be requiring all dealers to open their delivery and test and engine from each production run they receive to see if they were given defective units, If so ship them all back and have the replaced, This is almost the only way of getting these bad eggs out of the barn.
Just because 1 unit is defective does not mean all of the shipment was defective, that could be the only defective unit in the shipment.
My LHS does not even have a test track.
Their policy is that if you purchase an item from them and it is defective it is up to you to deal with the manufacturer for repair/replacement. They do not offer replacements on any defective items, not even store credit is offered for defective items.
Quote from: Pacific Northern on April 26, 2010, 02:25:59 PM
My LHS does not even have a test track.
Their policy is that if you purchase an item from them and it is defective it is up to you to deal with the manufacturer for repair/replacement. They do not offer replacements on any defective items, not even store credit is offered for defective items.
Time to find a new hobby shop.
Sheldon
Quote from: Atlantic Central on April 26, 2010, 06:25:20 PM
Quote from: Pacific Northern on April 26, 2010, 02:25:59 PM
My LHS does not even have a test track.
Their policy is that if you purchase an item from them and it is defective it is up to you to deal with the manufacturer for repair/replacement. They do not offer replacements on any defective items, not even store credit is offered for defective items.
Time to find a new hobby shop.
Sheldon
I only shop there on rare occasions, now shop mainly at MB Klein and e-bay on occasion.
the average hobby shop will not deal with the like they will tell you to deal with the manufacture...walmart will take back anything but a lot of stuff like electronics say on the box do not return to the place of purchase...contact manufacturer blah blah blah
Reading through this thread reminds me of something that happened years ago at a site where I was working as a pipe welder. We were welding stainless that was specially made for the job and everything was X-rayed after every weld. One week every weld was being knocked down and even when cut out and replaced it would be knocked down a second time. The company running the job moved all of us to another section of the job and started checking out their pipe shipment. The story they eventually told us was that at the end of the month somewhere up the production chain, the company that was acquiring the pipe and responsible for ensuring that only pipe meeting spec reached us had been short of what they needed to ship and keep up to contract on their supplying the job on time. In order to avoid missing a contract specified shipment date, they had just wrapped up and shipped one batch that had failed to test OK thinking that they would be better off taking some pipe back than being fined for failing to deliver on time. Unfortunately for them, they were wrong and another firm took over making sure the job had appropriate pipe.
Maybe there's a batch of these engines that were picked up from the "failed QC" bench in order to make up the final box or two that it took to fill a pallet. It wouldn't be the first time such things have happened. Are there any series or serials that could be checked to tell when the failing engines were produced and if they would have all been shipped at the same time?
Regards
Discussing this problem with a friend, I was reminded that a year or two ago we ran into a pair of defective Spectrum 2-8-0 locomotives that had prematurely failed. Below is a photo of the innards of one of them. We felt at the time that the root of the problem was that the worm countershaft was too short. When the motor moved the locomotive forward, the counter shaft moved toward the rear of the locomotive (i.e. it moved to the right in the photo.) With no contact between the end of the coutershaft and the frame casting, axial thrust was controlled only by the clogged belt pulley rubbing against the frame casting. The extra drag overloaded the rear bushing "B" wearing it rapidly at "A" and opening up a gap at "C." The "dirt" at D was rubber dust which had shredded off the toothed belt from rubbing against the frame.
(http://members.shaw.ca/sask.rail/2-8-0-a.jpg)
It was quicker and easier, in this case, to turn a new bushing shown at N in the photo below than it was to return the locomotive to Bachmann. The new bushing included a flange to help keep the counter shaft pulley aligned with the motor pulley and at the same time controlled the axial thrust of the worm working against the worm gear.
(http://members.shaw.ca/sask.rail/2-8-0-b.jpg)
What brought the fault to our attention was the locomotives' reduced speed and the noise of the belt and pulley shredding themselves. Since the repair, the locomotive shown has been in service for many, many hours with no recurrence of the problem. But it does make we wonder if there was a batch of Connies built with improper countershafts.
Jim
I will say one thing, at least these locos are fairly simple. Mechanically, there isn't too much that can go wrong, and should a problem occur that you can repair yourself, it's pretty easy. I too agree with you that this is most likely what happened--except in my case there was NO lubrication on anything--gears or bearings...