I'm trying to build my first HO gauge railroad since 1971. I aready purchased the EZ Track with #4 turnouts for sidings and #5 turnouts for crossovers. The outside loop will be 18" radius and inside is 15" radius. Because this is a holiday layout, I'll be using short locos (among them, a Spectrum 0-6-0 Saddle Tank steamer and several re-lettered 0-6-0's [the others are 0-6-0's w/ tenders). This brings me to the crux of the question: The # 4 turnouts have plastic frogs and the #5 turnouts seem to have metal frogs. The planned layout can use either #4 or # 5 turnouts for the inside sidings. Which would provide greater engine running reliablity - the # 4 or the #5 turnouts? The layout may or may not be DCC, depending on if I can get the track isolation needed for DC (DCC would sure simplify things, since I can always switch to DCC compatible steamers).
QuoteWhich would provide greater engine running reliablity - the # 4 or the #5 turnouts?
The #5 turnout.
Hi John
I've been working with Eztrack for a first layout. I only have the #4, and my GP40s work fine with them. Since the 4 simply replaces a 9 inch section, its a little easier to connect things without having to cut small filler pieces. I agree the 5 is a bit smoother and more realistic in the car overhang aspect. If you plan to stay with the shorter locos, you will have no problems.
As I mentioned in another post, the turnout points were blunt on the end and stuck up a little above the track. A little careful filing will fix them.
Bo
Bachmann does not make a HO #4 turnout!
The HO E-Z Track Remote Turnout (Items No. 44561 and 44562) with the plastic frog has an 18†constant-radius divergent route.
Bo,
Bachmann's #5 and #6 turnouts are better able to handle short wheel base locomotives because the Frog can be polarized if required.
Thanks Hunt, I will add that to my notebook. I may have some short locos later like the UP 119, I might try to power the frog on one. I noticed Bachmann has instructions on the card to power the metal frog.
Bo
Quote from: Hunt on May 14, 2007, 02:01:06 AM
Bachmann does not make a HO #4 turnout!
The HO E-Z Track Remote Turnout (Items No. 44561 and 44562) with the plastic frog has an 18†constant-radius divergent route.
Hunt, thanks, but I hope you won't hold it against me for calling the EZ-Track turnout a #4 -- after all, that's what Bachmann advertizes it as.
Since I'm interested in my locos not stalling on turnouts, I think I should go with the #5 turnout.
Any tips on energising the metal frog for DCC would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance. - John
The instructions should be on the back of the package (card). Don't know if the instructions specify for DCC. Someone else will probably answer this for you.
Bo
John,
Where did you see an ad by Bachmann about a HO #4 turnout?
As Bo wrote, the instruction to connect the wire to polarize the Frog is on the back of the turnout package.
DCC components are not as tolerant of a short circuit even a momentary one as a DC power pack. So, unless you have too, do not polarize the Frog. It increases the chance you will experience momentary short circuits as equipment with metal wheels out of gauge roll through the turnout. Check to be sure the Frog insulating gaps are not compromised. There are other fine tunings to the turnout and rolling equipment you may have to do; but, we can cover those if situation dictates.
As beginner's we all make that mistake, just be patient with us, we will learn as we progress. But I have even heard the guys in hobby shops make the same error, just a habit. (or else they don't know the difference either)
Bo
Quote from: Bojangle on May 16, 2007, 12:58:28 AM
As beginner's we all make that mistake, just be patient with us, we will learn as we progress. But I have even heard the guys in hobby shops make the same error, just a habit. (or else they don't know the difference either)
Bo
Bo,
If your comments are intended for me, then know--- Patient is not a word that is applicable. If I did not have patients, I would not be answering questions on this Board.
To All,
My replies are given on a take it or leave basis. Those with an ego issue or are thin-skinned I strongly suggest… do not read any of my posts.
Because of the brevity of most of my replies, I do encourage all to request more information if needed. I also encourage anyone that has
additional relevant and factually accurate information to add to any of my replies do so. However, if you don’t know and are just guessing don't waste your time and the ones who will read it.
Dear Hunt,
Roger that.
Regarding your comment about powered vs. non-powered turnouts, have you read Lionel Strang's book on DCC? If so, I believe he is a proponent of powered frogs as a way to avoid derailments if the points are set incorrectly.
I have skimmed through Tony's DCC outline, and cannot figure if he advises for or against powered frogs. I sort of remember a discussion here several months ago.
Any info you can provide will be most appreciated, or a link .
Thank you and best wishes,
Jack
Quote from: jsmvmd on May 16, 2007, 02:34:17 PM
Dear Hunt,
Roger that.
Regarding your comment about powered vs. non-powered turnouts, have you read Lionel Strang's book on DCC? If so, I believe he is a proponent of powered frogs as a way to avoid derailments if the points are set incorrectly.
I have skimmed through Tony's DCC outline, and cannot figure if he advises for or against powered frogs. I sort of remember a discussion here several months ago.
Any info you can provide will be most appreciated, or a link .
Thank you and best wishes,
Jack
Hi Jack,
I looked over Lionel Strang’s
DCC Made Easy: Digital Command Control for Your Model Railroad paperback book when it first came out. So it has been awhile.
I recall he covers short circuit in a turnout and likelihood of derailment when traveling from the frog against the turnout route switch rails line when using powered vs. non-powered frog. Understand this has nothing to do with using DCC. Same derailment will happen if you are using DC. Such a derailment depends on how the turnout is designed and how the switch rails (a.k.a. Points) are moved. As I recall he has Shinohara. However, with so called snap type turnout you are not as likely to have the derailment he writes about.
Try it ---- You can usually successfully run your train both ways thought any E-Z Track turnout regardless of the line of the switch rails. Know when the E-Z Track frog is polarized it does not become power-routing type turnout. All routes are still powered.
I still suggest not powering the frog on any brand turnout unless you have a rolling equipment dictated need. Handle the derailments Lionel writes about, if they occur with the turnout you have, with operator discipline.
While it does not address E-Z Track turnout's wiring method directly, if you want to get into the details of wiring turnouts used with DCC review http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm (http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm)
Quote from: Hunt on May 16, 2007, 12:27:09 AM
John,
Where did you see an ad by Bachmann about a HO #4 turnout?
OK, where's the smiley showing my face turning totally red (and not from sunburn!)? You're right. Must've confused my teen years with the old HO Atlas snap-track and my 25-35 year-old years w/ N Atlas and Pico track. This new stuff is alien to me. Back then, we had to build even the electronics from scratch! Just as reference, I was born in 1951....
John
I think I'm going with the #5 turnouts, if these turnouts' frogs can power the Spectrum 0-6-0 Saddle Tank steam switcher through the turnouts without stalling the loco at ~ 5 - 10 smph. Input is appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
- John
John,
Not sure what additional opinions will do for you. No one can give you a guarantee not having tested the overall running condition of your locomotive or knowing if the #5 turnout you use will perform as its design intended.
We are not talking about a lot of money here. Buy a #5 E-Z Track Turnout (or whatever brand you want to use) attach a few straight sections of track, connect power, test and fine tune if necessary. Be sure you have cleaned the track, cleaned the locomotives wheels and properly lubricate the locomotive, which includes placing a very small amount of conductive contact lube on the pick-up wheels' tread and electrical rub points before you start testing.
Have fun! And let us know how things turn out.
Dear Hunt,
Brilliant reply to John and me! Thanks, con mucho gusto! Alan Gartner's link I had seen a while ago, and had forgotten about it. I will read it and toast your health!
Best Wishes,
Jack
Did a test last night w/EZ Track #5 turnout and motorized handcar (shortest wheelbase I have. On straight DC, Handcar sparked and stalled on the metal frog. Turnout was straight out of the box, no mods.
Any ideas on what went wrong? I tested no other loco, and am seriously rethinking my Christmas display to be only 4x4 and three continous, yet seperate loops. Considering locos I'll be using, this might be best - and that I want to use straight DC.
I'm seriously doubting EZ Track is best for DCC. Any suggestions about which track is best for DCC? I'll be using steam (mostly Spectrum with a smattering of other brands. (Shortest wheelbase is Spectrum 0-6-0T) Thanks in advance.
John Murphy
Quote from: John Murphy on May 29, 2007, 09:28:55 PM
Did a test last night w/EZ Track #5 turnout and motorized handcar (shortest wheelbase I have. On straight DC, Handcar sparked and stalled on the metal frog. Turnout was straight out of the box, no mods.
Any ideas on what went wrong? ...
Sure.
DC or DCC has nothing to do with what you experienced. The same thing would happen on any other brand of #5 turnout with a non-live frog or on a straight track piece with the same length of a rail isolated from power. What happened… lost contact with power on one side.
Does the Spectrum 0-6-0T make it through?
Attach the wire to polarize the frog and try again. Even doing this you will need some speed for the motorized handcar to make it through the turnout. If it stops again at the frog, follow the instructions on the back of the turnout package about flipping the plug and check the wheel gauge. Does the Spectrum 0-6-0T make it through?
By the way, what was the track plan you used to do the test?
Was it as I suggested or did you have two ovals using two turnouts to connect them with power feeders to each oval from one DC power pack? If the two ovals, where did you place the insulated rail joiners?
Quote from: Hunt on May 30, 2007, 01:19:42 AM
Quote from: John Murphy on May 29, 2007, 09:28:55 PM
Did a test last night w/EZ Track #5 turnout and motorized handcar (shortest wheelbase I have. On straight DC, Handcar sparked and stalled on the metal frog. Turnout was straight out of the box, no mods.
Any ideas on what went wrong? ...
Sure.
DC or DCC has nothing to do with what you experienced. The same thing would happen on any other brand of #5 turnout with a non-live frog or on a straight track piece with the same length of a rail isolated from power. What happened… lost contact with power on one side.
Does the Spectrum 0-6-0T make it through?
Attach the wire to polarize the frog and try again. Even doing this you will need some speed for the motorized handcar to make it through the turnout. If it stops again at the frog, follow the instructions on the back of the turnout package about flipping the plug and check the wheel gauge. Does the Spectrum 0-6-0T make it through?
By the way, what was the track plan you used to do the test?
Was it as I suggested or did you have two ovals using two turnouts to connect them with power feeders to each oval from one DC power pack? If the two ovals, where did you place the insulated rail joiners?
I rigged up a test track w/one 9" rerailer track on either end of the straight portion of the #5 turnout hooked up to a standard DC powerpack. Have not tried other locos yet
After that debacle, I rethought the layout and came up with a 4'x4' w/ 3 seperate ovals....
Will try your suggestion, but am having serious 2nd thoughts about EZ Track's flexability (or rather the lack thereof) as far as wiring and track insulation. I'm disabled, so ease of track assembly is vital.
John Murphy
Quote from: John Murphy on May 30, 2007, 10:16:48 PM
...
After that debacle, I rethought the layout and came up with a 4'x4' w/ 3 seperate ovals....
Will try your suggestion, but am having serious 2nd thoughts about EZ Track's flexability (or rather the lack thereof) as far as wiring and track insulation. I'm disabled, so ease of track assembly is vital.
John Murphy
John,
You were informed a short wheelbase locomotive would not run through a #5 turnout unless it has a polarized frog. Your test proved what you have been told is the case. That is not a debacle. If there is any debacle, it is you did not apply the information you have been given.
You will find no easier track system to use than E-Z Track. Reading between the lines of what you have written in this and other threads on the Board it is probably best if you avoid track plans requiring the use of any track piece other than straights and curves. Stick to the basic oval of track. Successful completion of a model railroad track plan requires a fundamental understanding of electric wiring that you seem to have not yet acquired.
Quote from: Hunt on May 30, 2007, 11:09:15 PM
Quote from: John Murphy on May 30, 2007, 10:16:48 PM
...
After that debacle, I rethought the layout and came up with a 4'x4' w/ 3 seperate ovals....
Will try your suggestion, but am having serious 2nd thoughts about EZ Track's flexability (or rather the lack thereof) as far as wiring and track insulation. I'm disabled, so ease of track assembly is vital.
John Murphy
John,
You were informed a short wheelbase locomotive would not run through a #5 turnout unless it has a polarized frog. Your test proved what you have been told is the case. That is not a debacle. If there is any debacle, it is you did not apply the information you have been given.
You will find no easier track system to use than E-Z Track. Reading between the lines of what you have written in this and other threads on the Board it is probably best if you avoid track plans requiring the use of any track piece other than straights and curves. Stick to the basic oval of track. Successful completion of a model railroad track plan requires a fundamental understanding of electric wiring that you seem to have not yet acquired.
I've wired various HO guage railroads in the 1960's (atlas sectional track) and 2 "N" guage railroads (The last one was a loop to loop with homebuilt track detection, CDS to power turnout and automatic semiphore "motors", even a constant intensity LED headlight which worked (for an E-8). This last layout used Atlas sectional track, and Atlas, Pico, and Rapido turnouts, and lasted for nearly 9 years (mid-1970's to early- mid-1980's)
I just started back into HO in the last several years, so you're right, Hunt; this is all brand new to me. (sigh) At least I try to gain knowledge, but for me, it seems that EZ Track has definite problems for me.
Sincerest thanks for putting up with me. - John Murphy
Nope John, I’m not buying into your claims of historical model railroading accomplishments when at the same time you write, "… EZ Track has definite problems for me."
If your disability prevents you from using a track system that uses rail joiners then look into Life-Like Products (http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=Track&scale=H&manu=&item=&keywords=power-loc&instock=Q&split=30&Submit=Search)Power-Loc side-locking system, it uses no rail joiners. The Power-Loc track is entry-level and has very limited selection; but, someone can build an oval track layout with it.