Hello,
My name is Chuck. This is my first post here in this community. I have a few questions and was hoping for some help for a beginner.
I plan on creating a 4'x8' layout based as close as I can on the Sodor Island layout MR Bach-Man created (in the Photo Gallery). I downloaded the Atlas Track planner software from their site as I saw here that it can be used to layout a representation for/of Easy-Track. Anyway, I have attached 3 files for that program of my layout and I need someone who is willing to look at them and give direction/advice. The lower level in incomplete on the inner circle, as I have no idea how to make it connect. I've tried re-configuring it, but just can't get it. I'm not even sure I have either the outer or inner sections correct. Please tell me if you think the middle and upper layouts look correct based off of that Sodor Island layout, as mine seems to be a bit bigger in proportion than what I see in his photo gallery.
This layout is very important to me because I need to come as close as I can to knowing exactly what track I need before I order it, but money is a big issue.
Is there an easy way to tell how much risers I will need to purchase as well? What about powering the track. I see the powered re-railer wires hanging down, and then the track soldered later on. Is that layout powered directly using those re-railer power wires, or have you created your own by soldering the power directly to the track somewhere?
One more thing, that big/thick piece of blue foam on the very bottom layer, where can that be purchased and what exactly is it (so I know what to ask for)? And those white foam panels, what are they and where can I purchase them?
I'm sure I have more questions, but I'm really just trying to get going with the basics first and take it slow. Please be patient with my questions. This is a layout I'm doing for my son and daughter to enjoy.. and build with them.
Thanks,
Chuck
**NOTE: For some reason the forum will not allow me to attach my files. They're small enough, but it says the upload folder is full. I've tried several times. Happy to email the files to anyone willing to look at them/give advice.**
Yeah if you want to include other files, you have to do it some other way then using the attach button. The reason is every time Bachmann clears this out somebody attaches something that is huge or a million things then after less then a day it is full again. Also, you should post this under the Thomas subheading to see if anyone from there can help.
Thank you for the reply. I'll try and get the files posted somewhere so I can link to them, but I'm good with emailing them to someone too. :)
I thought about posting this in the Thomas Section, but it really is more of general questions/help needed (it is for the Sodor layout, but all questions I think are pretty generic in nature) type thing so I was hoping this was the appropriate place.
Chuck,
I went into the photo gallery and checked out some of the Sodor layout pictures and I can answer some of your questions. The blue slab that serves as the foundation is most likely extruded styrofoam insulation. You can buy it at a building suppy store like Lowe's or Home Depot. It comes in various thicknesses in 4X8 foot sheets. Sometimes it's pink, sometimes blue. The white material is, I believe, from a company called Woodland Scenics. They make a line of extruded foam products that would let you build your benchwork and subroadbed without using any wood at all. It's very light but pricey. They have a web site at
www.woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com
Now, I have to tell you something you don't want to hear. If this is your first layout, as I suspect that it is, it is much too complicated. Your first effort should be all on one level and probably not have a reverse loop or wye. As you gain more skills you can begin to incorporate more complications into your second layout. I hope I haven't been too discouraging. Good luck and welcome to the world's greatest hobby.
Thanks for your response OldTImer. :)
It will help a lot to know what to ask for when I go find the foam pieces.
The question I'm going to ask here is only because I am a rookie, so don't take it as a wise-crack. But, I agree that it's very complicated from a layering and scenic standpoint (which my plan it to go REAL slow and build it 1 layer at a time), but the lower layer for example looks to simply be an outer oval with some turn outs that dead-end that runs on it's own power. And then an inner oval that has no turn outs that runs on it's own power.. and then the same for each layer above. Is it not that simple? That's one of the main reasons I'm attracted to it, because each track can be run independent of each other so my kids won't fight over who gets to run the train. :) So what you're saying is that with it being multi-leveled that's where you believe I'm getting in over my head? What if I cut it down to just 2 levels, you think that would help to cut down on my stress level any? :)
Thanks for the feedback and please keep it coming. Also, I do really need someone to help me figure out my lower level track layout issue? :/
Hello Chuck, fellow "newbie" here. Started my first layout in Mar 2010, and still struggling. I would be happy to help you as much as possible. I used the same program for my layout. he bottom 4 X 8 foam, Home Depot, or Lowes, about $20. Home depot also has a pack of 2 X 4 sheets of styrofoam, 3/4" thick for about $12. I use a lot of this stuff. This is my first, and only discussion board, so I'm not sure what we can discuss. You can e-mail me at: cyberdad48@hotmil.com Go ahead and attach your layout and we'll try to figure it out. My layout is on a 4 X 8 also.
Right on Cyber.. sounds like a real good plan. Thanks a ton for the foam info. I'm hoping to head out tomorrow and pick some up. I'll add your email address and we can definitely keep up with each others progress.
Dear Napa,
Actually, the layout is rather simple. There are two ovals on the bottom, two in the middle, and the Thomas route on top. As I recall, the lower inner loop is all 18" radius. The outer has 22" at the end opposite the harbor. I'll try to find my notes to check.
Have fun!
the Bach-man
Chuck,
I have seen this layout in person at a train show (and met the Bach Man). The track system set up was not complicated. The great scenery is what gives it the complicated affect.
If you really want to build it, go for it. However, you will have lots of questions, especially about track laying. Please ask (one at a time). There are lots of friendly folks on this forum, who will be glad to help. You may want to read a little about Model Railroading in general before you dive in. I found a couple of beginner books very helpful when I started, just 4 years ago.
Not even sure if you can put decoders in Thomas equipment, but you will have to decide between DC and DCC at some point. That just one of a few dozens decisions to make before you get started.
Oh, you can post pictures and the like if you get a photobucket.com account. When you're ready for that, ask again. We can walk you through it.
Regards,
Jonathan
i have opened up thomas. his wiring is colour coded for dcc, so hard wiring a decoder in shouldn't be too hard. but probably not a project for a newbie.
my friend has installed a decoder in james without problems. i would thing the others would be similar.
note: you may have to use an n scale or z scale decoder to fit in the smatter engines. there's not alot of room in percy, mavis, sally, bill or ben.....
go here for decoder installs, great site
http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/HO_Scale/Bachmann/Thomas%20The%20Tank%20Limited%202002/Spectrum%20Thomas%20The%20Tank.html (http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/HO_Scale/Bachmann/Thomas%20The%20Tank%20Limited%202002/Spectrum%20Thomas%20The%20Tank.html)
What extra will DCC offer that I'm not getting with DC? Also, does it require special track, or just a train with a decoder and DCC power pack?
BTW - thanks again for all the suggestions and help. :) Was going to go purchase my foam today and get cracking, but my lawnmower broke and I had to have a new one. So... :-\
---> Mr. Bach-Man, I see you have 22 outer and 18 inner on the lower level for the Sodor layout. That's what I have used in my RTS layout, but for some reason the 18s are meeting properly on the end closest to the dock. It's like there isn't enough room to fit them.
I've got images of my track layout for each level now and they are below. Thanks again for all your help, really!
---> Jonathan, I looked through your thread where you refurbed your Varney (right?) engine, I have that exact same engine.. I just realized that today. :)
Lower Level Picture (http://lh4.ggpht.com/_NuugC-2O78I/TB1QTg3k7iI/AAAAAAAADQo/WCLU77iKS1I/s912/picture245.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_NuugC-2O78I/TB1QTg3k7iI/AAAAAAAADQo/WCLU77iKS1I/s800/picture245.jpg)
Middle Level Picture (http://lh3.ggpht.com/_NuugC-2O78I/TB1Qa53K2_I/AAAAAAAADQs/8Fg3N7KN2Zg/s912/picture260.jpg)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_NuugC-2O78I/TB1Qa53K2_I/AAAAAAAADQs/8Fg3N7KN2Zg/s912/picture260.jpg)
Upper Level Picture (http://lh6.ggpht.com/_NuugC-2O78I/TB1Qb3axSWI/AAAAAAAADQ0/nZVD9JlpYjE/s912/picture261.jpg)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_NuugC-2O78I/TB1Qb3axSWI/AAAAAAAADQ0/nZVD9JlpYjE/s912/picture261.jpg)
Quote from: napa15 on June 19, 2010, 07:24:47 PM
What extra will DCC offer that I'm not getting with DC? Also, does it require special track, or just a train with a decoder and DCC power pack?
DCC allows you to run multiple locos at one time with one controller. It allows you to use sound effects (if applicable) whenever you want, turn the smoke machine on/off (if applicable), and (de)activate special lighting effects like ditch lights, beacons, gyros, or dim the lights. It also allows you to run multiple unit consists of non-similar geared locos by matching speeds by changing configuration variables. It results in overall smoother running and better low speed control.
Thank you.. very easy to understand that. :) So, does it require me to alter my plans to use Nickel Silver Easy Track for this layout? And are there any special considerations I need to take ahead of time concerning layout? I plan to only run one consist at a time on each line. I plan to pretty much only run Thomas stuff (which I will put the DCC decoders in as I get them). The sounds and lights and all really interest me, but no running multiple trains on one line and stuff like that.
Nickel silver and steel track are interchangeable, but nickel-silver will prove to be a much better conductor of electricity over time. I don't think that Thomas trains have lights and I don't think there is room for sound in most of them, but I don't own any, I am just going by what I've seen at my LHS.
Chuck,
Congratulations on the Varney Dockside find. If you ever have a spare eight months of time laying around, it's a great little project.
Sounds to me like a good option for you is to start out DC with the Thomas layout. If you do a thourough job on the wiring (soldering feeders and the like), it will be a simple job to switch to DCC when you're ready. You won't be spending as many dollars either. I like that part.
If you intend to have all five loops going at once (I know I would), you will probably need more than one power pack (transformer). MRC makes dual packs with two controllers built into one unit (Tech4 MRC280 I think). Each side of the transformer has enough umph (tech term) to push two locomotives easily. So you could power up to four loops with one dual pack.
Remember, it's your railroad. There is no one right answer. These ideas are merely food for thought.
Regards,
Jonathan
Thanks, I'm definitely going with the Nickel Silver. Everything I've read leads me to that direction.
I think I'll just go the DC route for now and make sure I get enough feeder wires. How far apart should they be, every 24" - 36" or so? I do think I have enough transformers to run the 5 loops, I have two that have dual controls on them and the one that came with the Thomas & Clarabel set I bought my son (that got this Sodor Island thing started). That doesn't leave me any poser for the turn outs and other stuff, so I'll need at least one more. This make sense. Oh, and I don't plan on messing with my Varney Dockside engine (except adding some knuckle couples). It's actually in very good shape. :)
I've gone as far apart as 12 feet on feeders. When I felt less confident, I've put a feeder on every track joint (overkill). Most folks seem to hover in the 3 - 6 foot range.
On the loops you're planning, I would put at least two pairs of feeders on every loop. Then I would solder the track joints ONLY if I wasn't getting good current flow. But that's me.
I started a thread on track feeders, recentlly. http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,13162.0.html
There are many ways to do it. Mine is not the best by any means. Just an idea...
Regards,
Jonathan
napa -
I second your decision to go with DC for this layout now that I've seen the diagrams. DCC would offer you very little. You can purchase proprietary sound controllers if you wind up with sound locos. Two or three of those will cost a lot less than a DCC system.
On a layout like this I'd run two or three feeders to each loop and separate feeders to the sidings on the lower level. That way you don't have to worry about the rails powering the sidings or mess with relays. On the other hand, you might want to switch the electricity to those sidings on and off so you can store locos there while running another on the connected loop. That will require insulating the sidings and running switched feeder wires from your control panel to each.
Your power packs will have accessory terminals you can use to operate switches, lights and such-like.
Stick with the N-S track. Steel has too many problems, in most particular, rust.
I must say that I don't know how long you'll continue to enjoy just watching trains run around in circles, even if there are five circles. If you use EZ Track you'll find it stays together very well so you won't have to glue everything down. (You will want to tack it in a few places, however, possibly a dab of plastic-safe construction adhesive here and there and probably two at each switch. The easy removal will be a plus if you decide to use this track for a follow-on layout.
-- D
Thanks for the feeder wire info, that will certainly help a lot. The feeder wire(s), that's obviously what comes from the transformer.. right? If so, do you just run one long wire and attach the feeder wires to that? (Or, one wire per rail +/- I should say) What minimum gauge wire should the feeder wire be?
Next question, about the EZ Track.. I've seen where people say that the EZ Track turn outs are unreliable and have frequent problems. Is this correct? Am I going to need to worry about frequent derailing or power problems with them?
As for them being simple ovals, with the likely-hood of becoming boring.. yes, I agree. BUT, this layout is not for me.. it's for my kids. And like I said in my previous post, the fact that they can run their own trains on the same layout is a huge deal for me. And, this is hopefully going to be a real big family involved project. I'm greatly excited about the fact that I will be working on it WITH my kids, and wife hopefully. With that said, it very well may not be picture perfect, which is OK by me. :)
I'm still trying to figure out the correct track diameter size to use on the lower level inner loop closest to the dock. For some reason I just can't make the 18 radius work. Maybe it's 15 radius?
General Comment: 15" radius is very limiting and is too sharp for most equipment, but I'm not really sure how this applies to Thomas locos, but 2 and 3 axle locos are probably okay and most shorter rolling stock.
Someone else will have to chime in on proper wire gage, I'm afraid. I play a little fast and loose with gages for the bus wires (the ones coming off the transformer) and the feeder wires.
I tend to use scrap ethernet wire for feeders, because I have access to a lot of old wiring that is being tossed out when computer systems are upgraded. I use old mouse wire for the insides of locomotives, tenders and cabeese). Some nice folks let me rummage before the stuff goes to the dumpster (or wherever old PC stuff goes when no one wants it anymore). I believe, every day, all over the world, miles of wire end up in the trash simply because it appears more efficient to replace everything all at once. Heck, I found a lot of unused wire right at home. Seems we have to get a new PC every few years, whether I like it or not. Think of all the old mice, cables, etc that are probably sitting in your desk right now. Give it a new life on your layout! Sorry i just saw Toy Story 3.
I'll get back in my box now.
Regards,
Jonathan
napa -
I'm sorry that I wasn't clearer.
The wires coming from your power pack should be fairly robust -- 14 or 16 ga on a small pike like yours. The feeders are the short wires that run from these bus wires under the train table to the rails. These can be very small -- maybe 22 or 24 ga -- because they are only a few inches long. Be sure to maintain polarity. That is, connect one of the power bus wires to the inside rail and the other to the outside rail. I'd check after wiring each loop to make sure things are okay.
I've had good luck with EZ switches. They will bind if there is any odd pressure on them like grade changes or something between them and the surface to which they are attached.
-- D
Ok Just my 2 cents on this. If you want the kids to be able to run separate loops then by all means wire them seperately with DC, as it sounds like DCC will not be needed yet. Definately go with nickel silver track in the long run its better though I still have some steel track and its doing fine.
Like I said just my 2 cents.
Sweet. Great info. I happen to be able to get my hands on a lot of spare ethernet cable as well. I'm in good with our IT guy. ;D
I will make sure all my polarity is correct before running any locos.
I will not be using any 15 degree radius for the lower layout, as I know it's the wrong size (even if I asked it earlier). The locos that will go there can't use it. I'll figure out what I did wrong on my planning and the inner loop will have 18 degree.
All my track will be level, so hopefully no turn our issues. :) Have decided DC - no DCC. And will certainly be using Nickel Silver track.
BTW Jonathan.. saw Toy Story 3 this weekend as well. My son turned 4 the week prior and we did his birthday party at our local theater and watched that movie. Not very fun though when you have a party like that and have to pay for every kid that shows up.. 15 kids at $12.xx a pop.. good grief! :-\ That being said everyone had a great time and the movie was great. What a great ending to a movie series, even it was only a trilogy.
this is a really cool topic you have going im glad that a lot of people Enjoy this hobby. better this than breaking into houses.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D ;) ;) ;) ;) :) :) :) :) :) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) :o :o :o :o :o
TB16
napa -
I'll bet you can use the ethernet cable for your power buses as well as feeders if you don't mind removing the insulation from all of those wires and twisting them together. That would give you great ampacity. If you do that, you could just split off one or two of the wires to serve as the feeders. You wouldn't even need to cut them. Use two colors of cables or mark one with markers, paint or nail polish. Markers are easiest; paint is okay but it takes it a while to dry.
TB16 -
What do you mean housebreaking? I haven't done that in years. And it was my own house. Of course that didn't stop the local constabulary from confronting me with drawn weapons. They figured out that I was a good guy when I pointed out that I was trying to break in by carefully removing a pane of glass intact to simplify the repair, rather than just smashing it. It was funny, though, when they asked if I had any ID and I had to tell them it was in the house.
-- D
im just saying it's better doing this as a hobby than breaking into houses cause this wont get you in trouble with the cops
TB16
im board tonite nothing to do!
You're "board" - or "bored"? ;D
TB16 -
I know you meant cops. That's what the constabulary is. are. whatever.
-- D
Mr. Bach-Man,
Would you please chime in if at all possible on what you remember the radius of E-Z Track used on the lower level inner loop segment, closest to the docs? I still don't have a 100% clear understanding if it is 18 degree radius at that juncture. I thought you said that you used 22 degrees for the outer loop on the lower level, and 18 degree radius on the inner loop. I'm really trying to be as precises as I can when ordering my track, but mainly want to make sure I don't come up short and that I order the proper track. DO you think you used 15 degree radius on the top level with the smaller loop for Thomas? And maybe 18 degree outer and 15 degree inner for the middle level?
Thanks for any help you can give. Now that my son and daughter know we are going to be doing this project they are bugging me every day about it. :)
Dear napa15,
18"R has about 34 ties per section, 15"R has about 31 ties per section. (Look closely at Sodor pics.)
I suggest AnyRail.com over the Atlas program. Free program, free Bachmann library up to 50 pieces, I think.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
I know you meant cops. That's what the constabulary is. are. whatever
Bad boys Bad boys Whats ya gonna do with the Sheriff John Brown come you.....
Dear Napa,
I have found a sketch I did at the time. Let's start at the end furthest from the docks, and proceed in a clockwise direction. The furthest piece of track is a 3" straight. From there: 18, 18, 18, 9(st), 9, 9, 9, 15, 15, 15, 2.25(st), 15, 15, 3(st), 9(st), 18, 9, 9, 9, 18, 18, 18. This completes the oval.
Let me know how this works.
Have fun!
the Bach-man
I do believe that get's 'er done sir. Thank you for the time to find your notes and post your findings here. I think I'm now ready to make the move to order track. I am considering NOT adding the docks and boats to the end that is on the one built by The Bac-Mann. I am thinking of taking an approach where I will easily be able to add to that section should I want to expand my layout in the future. Anyway, I feel way more confident now about what I need to order and in what quantities. :)
napa -
Your kids will love it if they can take something off of a boat, put it on a train car, and then take it off of the train car to place it on a station platform or such like. If you have a truck which can deliver the item after the train ride, that's all the better. One thing I learned from my children and grandchildren is that it's important to have flats and gondolas so the kids can load and unload things. They won't necessarily enjoy the same aspects of model trains that we as putative adults do. Also, be sure to have some figures they can move around, even if they are out of scale and have to lay down on the top of a box car. They'll love it. You can have the figures fall or jump off, get into chases with one another, try to dodge the trains and on and on. Don't hesitate to use silly voices.
Now you know two things about me. One is why my kids and grandkids think I'm a fun and funny guy. The other is why I wrote "putative" adults. Oh, actually three things. You also know why my wife thinks I'm immature. (But she's jealous that the kids like me more than they like her so I consider her opinion about this to be neither accurate nor meaningful.)
I'm not completely nuts, though. We don't have Donald Duck jumping on and off of brass locos or great old wooden passenger equipment. Just have a cheapie engine or two and some junk cars and you're all set. We never did purposeful train wrecks though it always seemed like the kids wanted to explore that experience. But I had to set some good examples. It's fun to watch the kids as they grow up, too. Sometimes they'll regress and play like they did years before and you can see on their faces that they have no idea why they remember their earlier antics as so much fun.
-- D
Mr. Bach-mann,
One final question concerning your Sodor Island layout. The 3 turnouts on the lower level, are those the #44561 Remote Turnout-Left ones (which is what I think they are), or the #44565 #5 Turnout Left? Those are my final 3 items to purchase and I want to make sure I'm purchasing the correct ones. :)
Thank you for your assistance.
Dear Napa15,
All three are the #44561 left remotes. The main clues in the photo gallery pics are the 30 degree turns.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Thank you Joe. That's what I thought they were, but was slightly worried that I'd pay in excess of $60 for track I couldn't use. :) Hopefully my local hobby shop will have them end at the end of the week.
Dear Napa,
Joe is correct (needless to say!).
Good luck with the layout!
Have fun!
the Bach-man
(blush) Not all the time.
Don't ask me to pick stocks.
BTW, what is the status of the Sodor layout?
Thanks.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Edit: added Q.
Hi, Joe!
When the Sodor layout was in transit from the World's Greatest Hobby to Philly, there was a small problem...evidently the parachute didn't open...
I plan on making a few trips down to the home office to get it back in shape for the fall season.
Have fun!
the Bach-man
Another question....
At the stage where you laid your large blue foam piece (lower foam) you laid another layer of what looks to be 1/2 foam sections on top of that to cover the 4'x8' area. Can you please explain why? I am finally at the stage where I'm ready to lay my large sheet of blue foam but am trying to understand the need for the second layer. Thanks in advance!
Dear Napa,
I was pretty much making it up as I went along, and really hadn't figured out how I'd do the harbor area. After the white foam was down I decided to use the roadbed, and even then it became necessary to build up the water surface. But foam is light, and so far it's absorbed a lot of punishment, so it worked out.
I could certainly have started on the blue surface.
Have fun!
the Bach-man
I see. Thank you for the reply.