A funny thing happened...
...this AM. I programmed two proto E-6s (older, DCC ready; had installed NCE decoders). All went well. I was happy. I turned the system off to work on the layout.
A short time later, the fun began! I flipped on the power supply, and the two back-to-back E-6s took off like a rocket! I got them off of the track, and started to try to reason out what happened. The steamers I had on track wouldn't program-move, honk, beep, or anything; the exceptions were rthe two 2-6-6-2s with Tsunamis-they made that idling sound, but wouldn't move. I then took everything off track, and put on an engine that hadn't previously been on the track, and it took off full tilt, like the diesels.
For everything I have thought of, there seems to be a contradiction to it. Has anyone experienced this? Better yet; I hope the decoders are OK. The power supply can be replaced if need be, as well as the processor. I just absolutely dread sending a bunch of stuff back to BLI for repairs.
Rich
• With power off, remove all locomotives from the track.
• After at least five minutes with power off, turn power on.
• Test run each locomotive as it is placed back on the track.
• Place the sound locomotives back on the track last and test run, activate sounds.
• Tell us what happens.
• What brand and model DCC command station and power boosters you are using?
Hunt;
Everything is NCE, except three "Tsunami" and one "Bachmann" decoder.
I removed everything earlier, but perhaps didn't give the equipment enough time to "cool down". It seems like the wierdest thing, because there seems to be no common denominator. I will get back.
Rich
Hunt;
OK, I turned the power on, and put a "virgin" loco on the track, and it did the same thing-run-away power. I think perhaps something shorted over in the electronics, and the control is now either bypassed or cooked. It was OK until I had the two protos on the track, and turned the unit on.
What I did when I programmed those two: As I wanted them back-to-back, I programmed both with the same address; as I had installed thedecoder plug in backward on one unit, I felt I had brought both into the same address with no complications. Now, in your opinion, would it have been possible that turning the unit on with both units under the same address, created a power surge? That would be my guess. UNfortunately, if I am correct, it means a trip to NCE land and a hard lesson learned, I guess. It seems that the power unit could take more initial demand than two decoders being brought on line at once. I don't think that anything else on track would have caused it, as their addresses weren't cued in.
One thing: As you know, I am no expert on this end of the hobby, so I will take all the help I can get.
Rich
Rich,
I'm still learning about DCC and you know I don't really do diesels, but everybody I know who run diesels has a separate address for each loco and then consists them, which apparently takes care of the backwards aspect. OTOH, all my experience is with Digitrax, and that may be somewhat different from NEC
Gene
HI Gene;
Unfortunately for me, I think I should have done just that, but I thought I would give a theory a try; and that was to simply turn the plug 180 degrees on one unit, and then address them both the same. If that caused the problem, then it was my stupidity that caused it, and I have no one to blame but me. OTOH, thinking "out of the box" has been a good thing for me in a lot of respects. I guess that kind of approach is always a gamble.
Like I said beforehand, I only hope the problem didn't permeate into the decoders of the equipment on the tracks. I am hazarding a guess it didn't, but possibly could have screwed up the CVs to a fare thee well. electron flow has been known to do some wierd things; If so, lesson learned.
Rich
Hi Rich,
It's not a good idea to reverse the plug in an installation, just as a matter of principle. In this case, what you accomplished by turning the plug around could have been done by changing the "normal direction of travel" CV to "reverse". That would have done it... (hindsight is always 100%...).
Good luck..!!
Gus (LC&P).
Rich,
Know the reversed decoder or the way you programmed the locomotives in the consist has nothing to do with the issue you have.
When you turned power on, for a brief moment the power draw is almost equal the sum of the stall draw of all the locomotives on the track plus what is needed to charge the capacitors. The NCE command station should protect itself (maybe it did not) from power draw past its rating if that is what you created.
Without any locomotives on the track short circuit the track. After the command station and any booster you have resets then place a locomotive on track. If it takes off … contact NCE.
Hunt;
At any given time, I normally have about 8 or 9 locomotives on track, either working, or awaiting assignment. The sum of the stall draw of ALL the locomotives on the track-plus the cap charge? That had to be one heck of a hit! my guess is that the E-6's, just new to the system, were the proverbial straw. I will try what you say, and see what happens, but my guess is if it didn't "see" the surge and overcurrent condition and cut out, it has sustained some damage, and will probably need repairing. We'll see. Thank you very much for the help, and have a good evening.
Rich
Rich,
I have a friend that had a similar experience with respect to turning on his system and having engines just run away. It turns out, thru advice from one of the Yahoo DCC groups that he needed to disable the ability to run his decoder equipped engines on a DC powered railroad. Since then I have heard of, maybe two more of the same incident, and the solution was the same, turn off the DC capability. Why this would help I have no idea, but evidently, my friend has never had this problem since.
Bob
Rich,
Give what Bob suggest a try.
I thought about suggesting it; but, dismissed it as the conditions addressed by such action (disable power source conversion) I would not expect to be there with only one locomotive on the track unless you did something to your layout’s wiring, DCC power booster or added something to the layout, which now interferes with the DCC signal.
Disable the Power Source Conversion by programming a value of 0 to CV 29, Bit 2. Or the easy way, subtract 4 from the value now in CV 29 and program the answer to CV 29.
Gidday Rich
Have you tried to reset the decoders back to factory reset? I have been using NCE Radio equipment for 5 years and never had this happen before. That is no good for you but just try a reset and let us know what happens, and best of luck.
Cookie
Cookie,
Did you take into consideration Rich wrote,
QuoteI then took everything off track, and put on an engine that hadn't previously been on the track, and it took off full tilt, like the diesels.
in making your suggestion for him to try to reset the decoders?
Quote from: Hunt on May 20, 2007, 02:10:25 AM
Cookie,
Did you take into consideration Rich wrote, QuoteI then took everything off track, and put on an engine that hadn't previously been on the track, and it took off full tilt, like the diesels.
in making your suggestion for him to try to reset the decoders?
Gidday
No I didn't, so I guess I will just take off full tilt like the diesels, goodbye
Cookie
Hunt;
I had done some checking and factored it down to the following:
Considering the possibility of the command unit being fried/damaged;
The BLI decoders are set up differently than either Tsunami or NCE.
The Athearn, as you probably know, are simply a plug in type.
The NCE are also the plug-in type. No hard-wired units were employed here.
My guess is that, due to decoder internal wiring differences, the Athearn and NCE decoder units will respond at speed to the situation at hand; and the BLI equipment may be different in that nothing will get past the controller without the address being present; but the Tsunami units did emit the "idling sounds" of a drifting steamer; no headlights, whistles, were able to be called on. My guess, considering that that has always been the case with these units, that the rest of the Tsunami dcoder functions would have to be addressed, like the BLI. I certainly hope that my guess is correct.
At any rate, I will find out today, when I call NCE. Again, Thank you very much for your insight and help. A thank you also to all who responded with thier thoughts.
RIch
Cookie,
How dare you post an uniformed suggestion! Aren’t you aware that by doing so you are: A. Leading people astray, and B, forcing the leading experts in the field to come back and ridicule you in public?
You (and everyone else here) should take into account that these gentlemen should not be put into such a situation. I’m sure they’ve got better things to do. Particularly since they’ve already provided the solution to this issue. So I suggest that all who are not self-appointed experts in this (or any other) field please refrain from offering obviously wrong suggestions and allow others to set matters right without having to read a bunch of useless posts, and worse…to have to come back and expose our ignorance.
So please people, think twice before posting what will only be inconsiderate intromissions into someone else’s valuable time and expertise.
Thank you.
Gus (LC&P).
Gus;
I called NCE yesterday AM, talked to one of the techs there, and got a fix. I haven't had time to try it yet, but Hunt was on the right track on this issue.
You do make a good point here. I am by no means singling anyone out, or catigating anyone-not my thing-but a consideration in this situation should always be one's own credentials. Mine are in the electrical field, particularly industrial controls; they are NOT in electronics, engineering, etc; that I will leave to someone else more qualified than I.
I do hoewver wish to again thank all who gave their support here. This is what the idea of this forum-and all others like it-are all about.
Have a great and shining day, all.
Rich
Rich, any news on the fix? Got your trains running again..??
Keep us posted.
Good luck..!!
Gus (LC&P).
Hi Gus;
I haven't had time to get into the train room to do anything. Like you, duty calls, I haul... I am hoping I can get into the room tomorrow night and do what it takes. If I get done early (I have a 6AM job, and should be done by noon) I can get in there tomorrow. I would rather do that so that if I need to call NCE again with questions (needing to be led...) etc,
I am still a little gunshy about tackling this. The best gun I can come to the gunfight with is some logical knowledge I should have, considering my trade; but it would be scant at best, when applied to anything "computer-ese".
I will write and let you know what, if any progress, I made. I am sure it is a fairly easy fix; just doing it the right way is the 64-dollar question.
Have a great evening. How's the weather in Brownsville? It has been beautiful here, but it is going to start becoming "summer" soon.
Rich
Don't you hate it when that happens...!!! I rarely get a chance to do anything during the week...I've just about made my mind up that Friday evenings are the earliest I'll get to do anything. Anyway...keep us posted.
Weather here is hot AND muggy. Looking to get worse...
Quote from: r.cprmier on May 24, 2007, 06:53:37 PM
Hi Gus;
I haven't had time to get into the train room to do anything. Like you, duty calls, I haul... I am hoping I can get into the room tomorrow night and do what it takes. If I get done early (I have a 6AM job, and should be done by noon) I can get in there tomorrow. I would rather do that so that if I need to call NCE again with questions (needing to be led...) etc,
I am still a little gunshy about tackling this. The best gun I can come to the gunfight with is some logical knowledge I should have, considering my trade; but it would be scant at best, when applied to anything "computer-ese".
I will write and let you know what, if any progress, I made. I am sure it is a fairly easy fix; just doing it the right way is the 64-dollar question.
Have a great evening. How's the weather in Brownsville? It has been beautiful here, but it is going to start becoming "summer" soon.
Rich
If I can do it anybody can! Although I did have an Athearn Genesis Big Boy do the same thing...I took it back to my LHS and they simply replaced it for me. I am interested in your progress and awaiting results! Stephen
'Evening all;
Well, Ol' Richie C. delved into the problem today; and after some factoring, and isolating, I have determined that the unit's innards have fried to a fare thee well! Happens to the best of sickies. There could have been a number of contributing factors, but to my way of thinking, the overload protection malfunctioned, and the loads on the track were, as Hunt pointed out, a sum too great for that unit to handle; and without the O/L protection in functional status, the rest of it just burned out due to excessive demand on components. Iwill add that if there is CMOS technology being employed, it is a fragile componemt, highly susceptable to static discharge among other things.
At any rate, I am going to call NCE again, and let them know I am shipping it out for repair.
Again, to all; especially Hunt, thank you very much for all of your feedback here, and the knowledge contained herein. None of it hurts to acquire.
Rich
Quote from: r.cprmier on May 27, 2007, 08:09:13 PM
...
Again, to all; especially Hunt, thank you very much for all of your feedback here, and the knowledge contained herein. None of it hurts to acquire.
Rich
Rich,
You're Welcome.
Had hoped it would be something simple. But your statements of conditions after trying a few things is the reason I suggested you contact NCE.
Consider having NCE install (check the cost) the current firmware version as they repair or replace your unit.
When you get your NCE command station back, do disable the Power Source Conversion on all of your decoders.
Gus,
Your Reply #16 on: May 21, 2007, 08:52:41 PM to Cookie, was a waste of time except possibly for the birds of a feather. Such a frame of mind as depicted by that reply is a major impediment to learning.
Hunt;
Yep; Larry at NCE did mention doing that, using-I believe-CV29...I have it written down in the layout room. What I will do is call them for clearance, send it in, get it repaired and, as you suggest, updated. When I receive it back, I will do just that with the decoders; probvably bugging Larry one more time in the process, just toget me jump-started into that area. I really don't want that to happen again...
Have a great memorial Day.
Rich
Hunt;
A couple of questions come to mind here;
The "Tsunami" decoders emitted their "drifting" sound while the controller is in this state, and it did so even before. Is this normal? That was all I got from them after the problem happened; otherwise, they are good decoders.
The other question is do you think this might have affected the decoders of the equipment that was on track, possibly creating other problems? As I said, the BLI equipment was totally unresponsive-my guess is it has to do with how the feed/controller circuits in those decoders are set up. The NCE in the Athearn Mikes and Pacifics ( which were not on track when this happened) just act bypassed, and the engines take off at speed. I am guessing that the different mfgrs have employed some differences in their circuitry; hence the different behavioural aspects.
I had BLI equipment I had not previously had in service 9 still in box). I took them out and while on track, got the same results that I had from the "on track" BLI locos, hence my assumption.
OK Time to get it repaired.
Rich
Rich;
Decoders are not the same. Let us not try to go into the component and firmware differences between decoders; you just focus on what is covered in each decoder’s respective user and technical manuals.
For now, disconnect all the NCE DCC equipment used to place power and signal on the track. Now connect a DC power pack with no locomotives on track. Test run, with only one locomotive on the track at a time, each of your locomotives powered by the DC power pack.
An aside: Is your programming track a physically separate track? Or is it connected to your layout track and isolated by gap in both rails and using a toggle switch for run or program? The reason I ask, is a command station can be damaged if the gap is bridged between the programming track and the mainline track when the toggle switch is set for programming.
Rich,
Will it run on DC --- you must read the reference for each brand and version decoder you have.
FYI -- If you bought a Tsunami decoder made by Soundtraxx and installed it.
Know CV 29 Bit 2 default setting is 0 and your locomotive will not run on analog (i.e. DC)
REF: Tsunami Technical Reference, page 24 and 25
CV 29 default setting is 2
This means
CV 29 Bit 2: APS, Alternate Power Source enable -- is set to 0 = NMRA Digital Only (i.e. DCC Only)
HUnt;
Tech reference: Tsunami. Where can I find or download that manual? It may be useful, as i do have a couple of very minor adjustment/operating issues with them. Also, you mentioned did I try the locos on DC? No, not as of yet. I would assume the athearn locos will, as per their behaviour with the 16VAC component. I certainly could-I am in no particular rush to get this thing taken care of, as summer months, etc etc etc..., and presumably anything with NCE decoders might. I will try the BLI units tonight on DC. I will let you know. thanks for the input.
RIch
Rich,
BLI (OEM QSI sound decoder) locomotive will run on DC or DCC out of the box.
The Tsunami manuals can be downloaded from SoundTraxx
http://www.soundtraxx.com/products/dcc/docs.htm (http://www.soundtraxx.com/products/dcc/docs.htm)
Bear in mind, these Tsunami manuals are for the Tsunami decoder. A Bachmann factory DCC sound equipped locomotive, while its decoder uses Tsunami technology, parts of the manuals will not be applicable for the Bachmann sound decoder.
Example: Out of the box, a Bachmann sound equipped locomotive will run on DCC or DC without any changes to CV29 (because Bachmann's decoder CV29 Bit 2 factory default is set = 2).
Hunt;
That is fine. my thought was to acuire some form of tech manual, akin to maybe what NCE has available. I realize that there are going to be differences betwixt the units, and what happened during my "analysis" bore that out. Oh, I also did this as you suggested: I tried the units in question on the test track which I rigged up for DC temporarily. Results are:
NCE decoder equipped engines will run fine-in one direction.
BLI equipped decoders will run-after a threshold voltage is reached (approx. 12-14VDC), again in one direction. I did get some sound, but that wasn't my objective, so just figured it will work somewhat and went forth with the rest of my tests.
When complete, and enough of a representation was tried, I narrowed it down to the command station as the culprit; so I called NCE, and they gave me procedure. I also requested they do that upgrade you suggested.
Again; thanks ever so much for your help here. I have learned a lot about the "nature of the beask! (Popeye's word)
Rich