Bachmann Online Forum

     I've always thought that PRR was the most historical railway.  But here lately I'd have to say it is a toss-up among PRR, NYC, and Nickel Plate Road. I personally believe the Nickel Plate Road to be the most historical, even though the PRR is probably the most popular.
     I know that certain railroads have their own historical values in their region(such as the D&RG), but overall, what is the most historical railroad?

Define your terms.  The oldest common carrier in the U.S. was the Baltimore and Ohio.  The Nickle Plate emerged rather late in the second half of the 19th century, IIRC.   The oldest short line is the Strasburg.  The only remaining narrow gauge east of the Mississippi running on its own track is the East Broad Top. 
Gene

"Most Historical" is vauge at best. You say the Kansas City Southern or Florida East Coast since they have not been swallowed up by the mega-railroads. Or you could say the New York Central or New Haven, since both of them have survived mostly intact under Conrail and Metro-North/Amtrak, respectively. Or you could say the Richmond, Fredericksburg, and Potomac, since it still is used for its intended purpose "linking north and south"(Which is more than one could say of the PRR). Or you could say the PRR, since so much of its equipment is preserved...In short, one could think of a way to define their railroad as "Most Historical"(except perhaps the Milwaukee Road :'().

I'd have to go with East Broad Top - left as it was in 1956 when it shut down - original track, power, & some buildings although the line isn't all in operation I believe all the mainline remains.

Secondly would be the Durango & Silverton & the Cumbres & Toltec - original routes with much original equipment.  Georgetowm Loop also now has an original engine running.

Of course it depends on your definition of historical value.

I move to Oklahoma in 1944.  Okla. City had 6 RRs.  All of them are gone. 2 folded, 2 became BNSF and 2 became UP.   In fact the only large rr left is the Kansas City Southern.  here are a handfull of short lines that are still holding on.  As they say Time Marches On.

RAM,
Which railroads went through Lawton/Ft. Sill?
Gene

the Frisco and the Rock Island when to Fort Sill and Lawton.  The 1998 map shows BNSF and UP.   Today the UP may still go there, but I think the Stillwater Central now runs the old Frisco line. 

The Canadian Pacific went from the Atlantic to the Pacific, led to the Confederation of our country, was used to stop a rebellion, brought tens of thousands of imigrants west to settle the prairies, and with them 100's of towns along the tracks sprang up. The "On to Ottawa" protest during the Depression rode the rails but was stopped in Winnipeg and became Canada's biggest and bloodiest civil unrest.

brad

There is no historical doubt that the worlds most the Historic Railroad is the CPR. Historians call it the worlds greatest engineering achievement. The imposible railroad built from coast to coast throught the worlds worst
terrain and in record time. It created a Nation, perserved it (54-40 or fight), moulded it and today maintains it. It was the ribbon of steel that bound the provinces together. There is no nation in History that is so connected to a railroad as Canada and the CPR were.

David

Thanks for all the input, guys. I'm sorry to sound so vague, but I was just wondering which rr would be considered the most historical.  However, most things receive historical value because of what happens around the railroad, but particularly what is remembered by the railfans.

Historically I believe the Camden and Amboy was first RR in the country. It may have been swallowed up by the B&O, which by all acounts, is the first railroad with any history to it.

Without a doubt, no railroad history can omit PRR and the UP.

How about "Most Hysterical" - I nominate Penn Central.

Sour Rails, I'm thinking that what you really mean is the most "interesting."  In that case, for me it would be the Chesapeake and Ohio Railway, the Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul and Pacific, followed by the St. Louis-San Francisco, the Kansas, Missouri, and Texas, and the East Broad Top. 
Gene

I guess I could say the UP is the most historical railroad because of the number of "fallen flags" it absorbed.
Does any other RR have so many it it's past?

CSX:
C&O (PM, VC, HV)
B&O
WM
L&N
the rest of the "Family Lines"
RF&P
one half of Conrail and all that went into Conrail: PRR, NYC, and many others. 
Gene

     Yes, the B&O was the first rr with any history to it.  Was it not also one of the first rr's in America?  Anyway, it does have quite a bit of history in that it was used for several presidential campaigns; and if I am not mistaken, it was also used for President Lincoln's funeral procession.

sam
this is correct about the B&O. the PRR has alot of the firsts and the biggest
this railroad saw a lot in its life but then so did the B&O. like them both
and i have relitives that worked on them both during the steam era.

Tom

Quote from: Woody Elmore on May 26, 2007, 10:34:34 AM
Historically I believe the Camden and Amboy was first RR in the country. It may have been swallowed up by the B&O, which by all acounts, is the first railroad with any history to it.

The C&A was taken by the PRR as part of its plan to reach New York.

Quote from: Woody Elmore on May 26, 2007, 10:34:34 AM

How about "Most Hysterical" - I nominate Penn Central.

I nominate the Milwaukee as runner-up.

You cannot compare the Milwaukee Road to the very sad PC.

Don't overlook Norfolk Southern if you are counting current railroad companies by virtue of their "Fallen Flags". If you are counting latter day fallen flags like the B&O, then I nominate the Southern Railway. -a) A predecessor, the South Carolina Railroad & Canal Company rivaled the B&O for early history by 1)Running the first USA revenue passenger train with the Best Friend of Charleston 2) First fatal boiler explosion on a RR with BFofC, 3) Briefly the longest RR in the country, 4) First railroad junction in the country near Branchville, SC; b) Predecessor Richmond Terminal Company was the first "holding company" in US history, c) Saluda grade was the steepest mainline grade in the US, e) Wreck of Ol' 97, considered the first modern country & western song based on SR mail train, 7) Southern/NS steam excursion program was king from 60's-mid 90's and attracted untold thousands to the hobby; f) SR was the industry leader from the 40's to 80's in terms of profit, efficiency, and innovation- Silverside Hoppers, Big John Hoppers- infrared hotbox detectors, and fought the ICC and government regulations with more vigor to protect and enhance customer service than any other company, g) Was the first major American line to completely dieselize, and h) Was the last major line to join Amtrak, running the Southern Crescent until 1978.

Quote from: Woody Elmore on May 27, 2007, 09:35:23 AM
You cannot compare the Milwaukee Road to the very sad PC.

Yes, I can. That they both went bankrupt is the most obvious comparison. They also had some of the world's worst management. There was also extremely bad luck; Penn Central's '69 blizzard: the Milwaukee's '73 oil embargo. There was some shady management issues(PC's Penphil and EJA, MILW's mysterious expense doubler), and a lot of excess trackage which could not be gotten rid of. And for that matter, they both "saved money" by deffering maintenance, a strategy which came back to haunt them. PC's failed diversification program is directly comparable to MILW's boxcar-leasing. There was also the MILW's policy of parking any equipment requiring more than $5K worth of repairs, just like PC's idea that few locomitives in the shops was a good thing, and trains frequently ran with dead locomotives so they wouldn't be in the shops. And then of course, was their worship of merger. They both thought merger would magically solve all their problelms, and both killed themselves believing in this.

There is one major difference between the PC and the Road.  What CQ describes with the Road is the situation at the end of its long history.  But that's the entire history of the PC, if I remember its very short history.  The comparison is like comparing an excellent novel with an awful ending to a poorly written short story.
Gene

Quote from: Conrail Quality on May 27, 2007, 10:10:46 PM

Quote from: Woody Elmore on May 27, 2007, 09:35:23 AM

And for that matter, they both "saved money" by deffering maintenance, a strategy which came back to haunt them.

Much like CN is doing these days. I've talked at length to a CN engineer about company practices and the state of the company today. They have over 10,000 intermodal containers backed up in Vancouver that are already late, yards from one end of the country to the other are backed up, maintenance is at an all time low in favor of shareholder profits. as are staff levels. They've been calling retired employee's to see if they will come back to work.


Sad

brad

Gene; I agree completely about the Milwaukee Road versus PC. The Milwaukee had a proud history before the decline but PC was doomed from the start. One could also add the Rock Island to the list of "sad demises of railroads." all the reorganizations and color schemes indicated a business with no direction. The same could be said of the New Haven in its last few years.

Quote from: SteamGene on May 28, 2007, 07:37:40 AM
There is one major difference between the PC and the Road.  What CQ describes with the Road is the situation at the end of its long history.  But that's the entire history of the PC, if I remember its very short history.  The comparison is like comparing an excellent novel with an awful ending to a poorly written short story.
Gene

Very true, yet much of Penn Central's problelms were inherited from the Pennsylvaina and the Central. Both railroads had huge debts and deteriated trackage, along with inept management and questionable operating methods, all of which carried over to PC. So you could say that PC was just the continuation of the awful ending of the excellent novel.

But the PC was a different railroad, right? 
Gene

The B&O was the first commercial railroad in the U.S.  I believe the first train ran in 1831.  I think it finally lost its corporate identity when it was fully absorbed into CSX about 1990.  I might remind folks that the first commercial railroad IN THE WORLD was the Stockton and Darlington in England.  I believe it began operation in 1827. 

How about the Stockton and Darlington Railway, England, opened on September 27, 1825?

Being able to travel by rail from one end of the US to the other end is certainly one of the most historical events in US railroad history thanks to the CP and UP.

     I may be new to railroading, but I never thought I could post a very hot topic. ;D

Quote from: SteamGene on May 28, 2007, 09:41:03 PM
But the PC was a different railroad, right? 
Gene

To quote Alfred Perlman, head of the New York Central and president of the Penn Central until he was forced out by Stuart Saunders and David Bevan (both ex-Pensylvania), "To me, it was not a merger, it was a takeover, quite frankly." The Pennsylvania ran the show until June of 1970, when Paul Gorman, Perlman's replacement (originally from AT&T), allied with the Board to sieze power from Saunders and Bevan in a desparate attempt to win the confidence of bankers. The fact was, for most of the two years that acually mattered (the non-bankrupt ones), the Penn Central was just the Pennsylvania Railroad with a different name. But aren't we getting off the topic by now?

In my mind, historical is like being pregnant, you either are or are not.

And I deal in Historic Restoration as part of my profession, so I'm not sure what criteria to use here.

As to this "oldest" question, the B&O was first railroad in th US to cmplete all of the following,

Be Chartered or Incorporated for the express purpose building a railroad.

Actually build a line that went somewhere and provided regular service, not just a novelty or experiment.

Stayed in business to actually provide such services as a successfull busness.

They then followed that with a long list of industry "firsts",

first published timetable,
first stone arch railroad bridge,
first double track line,
first train to exceed 30 mph,
first railroad to pay a dividend,
first to operate a railroad repair shop,
first locomotive turntable,
first baggage car,
first railroad to Washington DC,
first to carry US Mail,
first iorn box car,
first dining car,
first to reach the Ohio River,
first to use an electric loco,
first to use a mallet loco,
first air conditioned car,
first completely air conditioned train.

Now that is Historical!

Sheldon

                 

And first in the number of bridges burnt or otherwise damaged by Colonel John Singleton Mosby, commanding officer, 26th Virginia Cavalry, CSA.   ;D
Gene

Yeh,

And that too!

Sheldon

Yorkie - we have conveniently omitted the fact that Britain had an operating railway before one started over here. I remember reading in grade school about how the "John Bull" locomotive (British built) had to race a stage coach.

As for most historical I think the votes are counted and the "Beano" wins.

I don't remember anything about a race involving the John Bull.  The most famous "race" was on the B&O (again).  In the beginning the B&O was operated with horses.  Peter Cooper wanted to convince the management that steam power was the future, and cobbled up a small engine on a shop cart.  The whole contrivance probably wasn't more than 6 feet long.  Cooper took some folks out on a demonstration run towards Ellicott City.  On the way back, they apparently came upon one of the horse-drawn cars and a bit of friendly competition briefly ensued.  The belt that ran the draft fan came off its pulley, and the loco (now known as the Tom Thumb) lost steam and had to stop for repairs.  When Edward Hungerford wrote his "history" of the B&O for the 1927 Fair of the Iron Horse, he somewhat inflated this incident into a minor epic. 

I would note that the "replica" built by the B&O for the Fair is way larger than the original.  Mel Thornburgh, a modeler who did a number of construction article in Model Railroader in the 1940's and early '50's, built a more accurate model of the Tom Thumb which is on display in the B&O Museum in Baltimore. 

Another side note:  Anyone else on this list see the original John Bull in operation?  Not the replica they have at Strasburg.

OOOPS - I forgot about Tom Thumb. The story I heard was about a race with Tom Thumb and a horse - not John Bull.

There are lots of railroad myths out there and the details of the"race" may be among them.

For a final "B&O" plug I suggest a visit to the B&O museum in Baltimore. I understand that the roundhouse was damaged or burned down in a fire. Is that true?

Woody,

Part of the roundhouse roof collapsed from snow several years back. It is all beautifully restored now and many upgrades to the whole museum where done as well. Several locos and rolling stock that where damaged are still in the restoration process or awaiting money and/or their turn in the shop. But the museum has a vast collection and is well worth the trip.

Sheldon

What ever to GG-1 #4876 that they are supposed to own? It was sitting vandalized in a CSX yard as recently as a few years ago, but I've heard rumors that it's been moved. I hope it has- 4876 was the one that crashed into Washingto Union Sation in 1953.