Alright folks, the GP seems to be acting up.
Before we start YES it IS well lubricated.
After running for about a half hour, the engine begins to slow down and if just left (no throttle adjustment), it will eventually stop. The engine does get pretty hot for my personal standards. I personally think the heat built up in the shell is to blame but does anyone else have any suggestions (other than send it back for service which I'm not going to do).
I do like the engine a lot and would run it more often if it wasn't for this issue.
Make sure the tires are not coming off and jamming the wheels! My weaver unit does that! I had a Williams unit that used to slow down and stop. I sent it back to them and they fixed it!
What size transformer are you using?
A 75 watt or better will not have that problem just in case you don't have enuff watts to the engine. But don't use a CW-80 from Lionel with any Williams engine that has a horn or other sound system.
I use either an MTH Z-1000 or postwar Lionel 275 watt ZW with my Williams engines, nothing ever slows down or gets hot.
Lee F.
Dear MB425,
What part of the GP9 is getting the hottest?
Take the body off if necessary.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Thanks for the replies folks. I won't be able to get down to doing testing/checking until the weekend but for now I can generally answer your questions.
tomplatten: Thanks! I don't think the tires are causing the issue but will check this weekend.
phillyreading: Z-1K provides the juice.
Joe Satnik: I took the body off last time I ran it (roughly 2 weeks ago) and the motors were the hottest with the boards being a close second. I can' t remember just HOW hot the boards were but I remember them being quite hot as well.
I can't say what the case is with your engine & the motors and circuit boards getting hot. However with larger size motors(120 volts and higher) the motor will get hot and burn out because it doesn't get enuff voltage and/or amps to it. If you use an electric grass trimmer or tree trimmer and use more than four extension cords this has the same effect as not getting enuff voltage.
Have you checked your track and power hook-ups? Everything must be clean. If you are using old track or old power hook-ups and/or old wires(too small a size of wire as well, but the wire should get hot), this can all be part of the problem.
When all trouble shooting tips fail, it is possible you got a bad engine.
Lee F.
Lee,
Thank you! I can't run it fast at all because just a tad to much juice and it will go launching on the floor. Track is clean, power/wiring is done properly, etc.
Even though every Williams engine I've had has been a nightmare, this one has been better and I think if it were a bad engine, I would have started experiences these and other problems early in the game.
Thanks again!
The worst problem I have had with any Williams engine was going too fast!
One of my Williams engines is missing a hand rail on the cab of an SD-45.
As for quality I have found Williams to be more dependable than any other brand.
MB425; do you buy your engines new or used?
I had one problem with a used Williams, and with that one I put in a bridge rectifier to the motors instead of a circuit board and it works great, just forward only!
Lee F.
All engines (and just about everything else I buy) are purchased brand new.
I personally have great luck with my old Lionel 4-4-2 (which I'm considering converting to TMCC) and a small number of older MTH PS2 locomotives. Not all MTH PS2 engines, new or old, have been perfect but I have a small handful in my operating fleet that just keep on ticking and as a result, they see the most use.
I have never had a bad Williams engine. Maybe one without a horn or sound unit but never anything that didn't work, or one that went too fast when hooked up to a ZW.
As for converting to TMCC, have you looked at the cost of the units? They used to be near $300 or better just for the electronic parts to upgrade to TMCC and another $70 or better to have it installed. Not trying to totally discourage you on TMCC upgrades but trying to let you know about cost!! Also TMCC is now considered obsolite, as Legacy control has replaced it.
A better way to go to gain control that is way less expensive is to use TPC-300 or TPC-400, you are able to control voltage to the engines better with a TPC unit, works with most engines, would be similar to variable voltage output with either TMCC or DCS. I think that Lionel used to make the TPC units.
Lee F.
Dear MB425,
If both motors are equally hot, and the reverser board is hot too, then it sounds to me like you have some kind of loading or friction problem.
A spinning electric motor moves cooling air through itself.
As an electric motor is slowed down or stopped (stalled) from excess friction or loading, it draws more current, which creates more heat, yet it has less ability to cool itself.
If possible, take Voltage readings at the track (before and after slowdown) and Amperage (current) readings to the track (before and after the slowdown).
Voltage readings are easy.
AC current readings, not as easy. You would need an Ammeter that could handle up to 6 amps.
Or, you could make a current shunt out of small gauge wire.
I have junk (short pieces of) Cat5 cable laying around. (Cat5 cable = 4 twisted pair 24 gauge Ethernet cable.)
4 feet of 24 gauge wire is very close to 0.1 Ohm. http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html
You could use a single wire (1 of the 8 in the cable), 4 feet long, as a 0.1 Ohm current shunt.
Multiply AC voltage readings on the ends of the 4' wire by 10 to get the AC current.
The shunt would replace (or add to the length of) one of the wires between your transformer and the lock-on.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
MB425: we do many repairs here at my shop. The answers you have received so far cover the wide variety of what could be wrong with your engine. Personally, I have yet to experience this particular issue. All of my personal Williams trains run with no problem as do the Bachmann ones.
Besides electrical, are you sure you do not have a small bearing issue? (I use that term to describe every single way train motor manufacturers' seat and rotate their motors.
It also seems you have an aversion to sending the piece back for evaluation or repair. We send pieces back to the manufacturer many times; when they are within their warranty periods, or have lifetime warranties. May be worth consideration, unless you just shelve the piece.
Keep them rollin'.
Tony Fortunato
Joe: Thanks. I'll try it later or tomorrow.
Tony: I don't believe it is a bearing issue but will check it out. It is not that I have an aversion to sending something back it is just that I don't like things being gone for months at a time coupled with the fact that I don't know who is dealing with it, etc. One reason why I've always like the local guy is that he does all the repairs right in front of me from start to finish.
I completely understand. You have to go with what you are comfortable with.
Tony Fortunato
Skippys Train Shed
MB425,
Another question is; do you have the TMCC unit turned on when running your Williams engine? That might be giving you the trouble.
Run your Williams engine with just a transformer supplying power(completely remove all other devices such as TMCC or DCS or a TPC) to it and see what happens.
It's a long shot but sometimes the more electronics we add to something the more problems we cause ourselves.
Lee F.
Lee,
Thanks again! No TMCC on my layout. Just DCS which is not hooked up to that loop.
On the other hand, I put my other conventional Lionel loco on that loop today just for sh*ts and giggles and what do you know it started the slowing down/stopping thing. Now I've narrowed it down to possible the transformer which I'll swap with another to test. That'll help me narrow it down even further. I don't think the track is the issue nor do I think that a loop of that size (a 27" circle with 4 straights cutting the circle in half) needs more than 1 power feed.
Thanks for the help. I'll continue to work with it next weekend.
It can't hurt to try another power feed to the track. I would agree too that a small size layout should not need that many power feeds but after working with Lionel tubular O gauge track, you will need a lot more power feeds than you think are neccessary!
I had a layout before that I had a switch leg(11 feet long) that constantly gave me problems; I put four power lockons to it, replaced some of the dirty looking straight sections, even used outside rail to rail jumpers with the track next to it. Finally I installed long sections of new straight track, about 40 inch sections(equal to four regular straights) and that helped the problem.
Another overlooked problem is the size of the wire, 16 AWG would be the smallest wire that I would use.
Lee F.
Thanks again Lee. Wire is 16 gauge and I may try another feed to see what happens. I also have a little copper wire trick I'll try with the track as well.
Thanks again!
I have ,apparently,a rather odd situation.I have 6 Lionel [post war,modern,conventional,TMCC],8 Williams,2 K-Line,1 K-Lionel,1 Atlas and1 RMT locos.
All of them ran the first time they were put on the track.None have needed any repairs.I do not have any MTH so I have no comments about them.They do not seem to be popular in my area.I have not even seen an MTH loco.None of my locos cost over $300.00.I do have a layout.
My first Williams loco frustrated me quite a bit when I first got it.It would go about two inches and stop.It was not the loco.It was a transformer that was not strong enough for the loco.Changing the transformer solved this.Only problem I have had with locos.That does not count ones caused by me.
Quote from: MB425 on September 08, 2010, 01:20:09 PM
Thanks again Lee. Wire is 16 gauge and I may try another feed to see what happens. I also have a little copper wire trick I'll try with the track as well.
Thanks again!
I would like to know about your copper wire trick, I have been around O gauge trains for over 20 years and know a lot about wiring in residential buildings.
Lee F.
r0gruth, thanks for the reply.
Lee: Use copper wire and strip all insulation off. then slip it between the insulators on the center rail of your tubular track at the joints. Make sure the wire is long enough so that it adequately bridges the gap. It's nothing fancy but I've found it to work.
Quote from: MB425 on September 14, 2010, 10:56:01 PM
r0gruth, thanks for the reply.
Lee: Use copper wire and strip all insulation off. then slip it between the insulators on the center rail of your tubular track at the joints. Make sure the wire is long enough so that it adequately bridges the gap. It's nothing fancy but I've found it to work.
That is about the same result when you solder the rails together, makes better contact.
Lee F.