I am ready to start changing out my Atlas switch machines for the Tortoise machines. I have one to start for learning purposes.
I believe I have figured out the assembly and wiring of the switching portion. However, I am a little confused on the other wiring tabs. I understand tabs 1 and 8 are for the motor. I can use a DPDT to change direction/polarity.
I want to connect alternating lights to tabs 2 thru 7 so I can tell which way the switch is thrown at a distance. The included diagram is over my head. It appears tabs 2-4 and 5-7 somehow interact with each other.
Can anyone give me a clue?
Regards,
Jonathan
Dear Jon,
According to Tony, you don't need the two Tortoise SPDT switches to indicate turnout points direction:
http://tonystrains.com/technews/archive/circuitron.htm
(Scroll to bottom.)
From Wiki:
"Bi-color LEDs are actually two different LEDs in one case. They consist of two dies connected to the same two leads antiparallel to each other. Current flow in one direction emits one color, and current in the opposite direction emits the other color."
I'm guessing that this Radio Shack 276-012 is one:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062549
Simply wire a single bi-color LED in series (in line) with pin 1 of the Tortoise machine.
Swap the leads on the bi-color LED if the points move the opposite that the LED indicates.
Polarity switch
outputs 1 and 2:
O1 -----------------------L1 LED L2--------------P1 Tortoise machine P8-----l
Polarity l
Switch l
O2--------------------------------------------------------------------------l
The Tortoise machine itself is the "current limiting resistor" for the Bi-color LED.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Edit: Added "The Tortoise machine itself....", capitalization
Dear Jon,
Page 2 of this pdf shows the internal diagram of the Tortoise machine, including the Auxiliary Contacts.
http://www.dccspecialties.com/products/pdf/man-hare-draft.pdf
I had to go to a different website than Circuitron to find it.
Don't know if the positions of the internal switches shown in the diagram are for "pin 1+ pin 8-", or for "pin 1- pin 8+".
Note that those SPDT switches (or, any switch, for that matter) have current and voltage limits, which I haven't run across yet.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Joe,
Thanks for that info. I saved the link to my favorites.
I like the simplicity in the design. I could set a single led to be on when the switch is closed, to warn me the way is not clear for an approaching train. Will probably mount the light on my facia, right in front of the turnout, facing my control station.
I will try it with an extra led I have lying around here somewhere.
You da man.
Regards,
Jonathan
note:
an led is a diode. it only passes electric current one way. to use an led with a tortoise, you'd need two of them, connected together in opposite polarities. this is what a bi-colour led is, two leds connected in ppposite polarities, in one package. using a regular led by itself in series with the tortiose means the tortoise will only throw one way.......
I was thinking along those lines. Couldn't I use a 'bridge' (extra piece of wire) so the current will still flow, even when the led is not lit?
I'm still a little green when it comes to electrical matters.
Regards,
Jonathan
no. if you"bridge" the led with a wire, all current will bypass the led and it will not light. that is known as a partial short circuit. electricity tries to take the path of least resistance.
here's an idea for you. if you are going to use an led as a panel light why not use one for each route of the switch. i am assumung you have the track diagram drawn on your control panel. if so, you can use two leds so that only the route the switch is set for will light up. the wiring diagram included with the tortoise shows how to do this.
Dear All,
In both circuits, the electrons see the same thing. In one direction, the red LED shines. In the other, the green LED shines.
Your LED choices are:
1.) Simple wiring/one package (my diagram above), or
2.) Not as simple wiring, 2 packages (Tony's diagram above).
If you want 2 separate LEDs, then use choice 2. This allows you to choose different colors than red/green.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Edit: Added (my..), (Tony's...), This allows...
Thanks,
I'm starting to catch on. Looks like the bi-color led would be the best choice in my case.
No short cuts (or short circuits) allowed on this project.
Appreciate the education, gentlemen.
Regards,
Jonathan
When using Joe's circuit above, you also have the option of connecting two or three bicolour LEDs in series with the Tortoise motor. Then you can have indicator lights in more than one place. For example, one on the panel, one of the ground near the turnout itself. Or you can make some simple signal masts to mount the LEDs in. This link shows one way to make such masts:
http://members.shaw.ca/the.trainman/LV_Workshop/signals/plastic/index.html (http://members.shaw.ca/the.trainman/LV_Workshop/signals/plastic/index.html)
Adding extra LEDs in series means you will have to have a bit higher voltage to drive them. For each additional LED, you can add about 3 volts dc.
There is an even better way to operate multiple LEDs. That is to use one half of a DPDT switch to operate the tortoise motor and the other half to operate the LEDs, as many LEDs as you want. The neat thing about this is that with a couple of extra cheap components you can also use this setup to operate twin coil switch machines as well. This means you can have operating signals even before you change over to Tortoise motors and will have to make only a minor adjustment when you replace your dual coil machines with Tortoises.
I don't presently have a wiring diagram in digital form but if anyone is interested, let me know and I will draw you one.
The signal in the foreground of the photo below is similar to what I mentioned above but is made of brass instead of styrene. The 5 mm LEDs are oversize for H0 but they are easy to see from the side as well as the front. Alternately, smaller LEDs could be used but would be harder to read from the sides.
(http://members.shaw.ca/sask.rail/dcc/tmaster/tmaster8.jpg)
Jim
Thanks, Jim.
As always, you provided a wealth of information that has given me some great ideas with which to work.
On a side note: I temporarily wired the tortoise to a DC pack I use to run the lights. When I change direction on the pack (change polarity), the switch operates. The brighter I turn up the lights, the faster the machine works. This is a great set up until I get the chance to wire, and light, the machine properly. :)
Regards,
Jonathan
Greetings, All.
Got a reply back from Steve Worack, Technical Support, at Circuitron on the Tortoise auxiliary contacts (SPDT x 2).
"...with -minus on pin 1 and +plus on pin 8, the TORTOISE runs to the left as you face the moving arm.
In that stalled position, pin 4 is connected to 3 and pin 5 is connected to 7, as is shown in Figure 2 on our instruction sheet.
Reversing polarity on 1 and 8 (P1+ and P8-) will run the TORTOISE to the right and pin 4 will connect to 2 and pin 5 will connect to 6.
There is a small dead area right at the center of the throw, that is, the contacts are break before make in design."
In short, auxiliary SPDT x2 end of travel connections:
P1- and P8+, 4 to 3 and 5 to 7.
P1+ and P8-, 4 to 2 and 5 to 6.
On the switch contact ratings and durability:
"The contacts are rated to SWITCH 1 amp of
current for a minimum of 250,000 operations. They will CARRY quite a
bit more current, typically 5 amps or so. Since it is rare to operate
the turnout while a heavy load is being powered, you should have not
problem. Many, many O scale layouts use the contacts for frog switching
without a problem."
Italics and bold added.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Thanks, Joe.
That helps alot, and gives me further options when I concentrate on my turnout and signalling project in the future.
I copied your info and made a hard copy for my binder. I was having a hard time making sense of their diagram.
Regards,
Jonathan
Just an update for those that have been so helpful.
I have successfully wired the switch machine to a DPDT switch and a bicolor, red/green led, which sits in my control area. Got the polarity correct so the light is red when the switch is thrown for the spur; and the light is green when the switch is thrown for thru travel. So far, so good. Thanks, again. I love it when things work.
I also have a Tomar target signal with red/yellow/green led's. They share a common wire (+). I am still trying to decipher how to wire this. I really want to use the aux poles on the tortoise so I can control the color aspects by throwing the switch. So far, I have been unable to get the leds to light up on the signal. Will keep at it. Thanks, again.
Regards,
Jonathan
i love it when a plan comes together.......
Dear Jon,
Do you have voltage dropping (a.k.a. current limiting) resistors? You would need 3, one in series with each uncommon LED wire.
As far as not lighting, these are possible causes:
1.) Bad connections.
2.) Switch not closed.
2.) Wrong polarity (swap leads on power supply).
3.) Burned out LEDs from missing resistors.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Again, I'm starting to get the big picture. There is no current in the aux poles, they are merely switches. Duh.
Thanks, again, Joe. Just for a test I touched the common wire to 8 and the other wires to 1, taking advantage of the tortoise resistors. The lights indeed lit up. So...
I will indeed need resistors for whatever colors I wish to choose, plus a separate power source for the signal itself. The 234, and 567 poles on the tortoise, will merely act as switches when the turnout is thrown.
In my ignorance, I was trying to connect directly to the aux poles, thinking there was power connected to them like poles 1 and 8.
Still learning... for some reason, I'm slow on the uptake when it comes to 'current' events.
Thanks for your patience.
Regards,
Jonathan
not sure what the current rating of your led's are, but a good starting point would be a 1000 ohm resistor. you could probably get by with just one on the common lead of the signal. the purpose of having them on the individual leads of the led's is to adjust the brightness of each colour led individually ( by using different values of resistor for each led)........if you feel your signal is too dim with 1000 ohms, try decreasing the resistance until you are satisfied. consider the use of 820, 680, 560 or 470 ohms, but i don't recommend using any value less than 470 ohms. these values are based on a 12 volt power supply, and typical led current ratings of 10-20 milliamps......
If you only lit one at a time it might be OK to put a single resistor in the common leg. It does take away your ability to adjust each LED's individual brightness, though.
You might want to start with a little higher resistance, 4.7K Ohm for example, and work your way down. .
The signal's instructions recommend 680 ohm/.5 watt resistors for red and yellow, and a 330 ohm resistor on the green. I was wondering if a single resistor on the common would work (680 ohm). It's OK if the green is a little dim. Thanks for the tip on that.
At this point, I've mounted the signal and added a few extra feet of wire to each lead, just to give me something to work with. I have a 12v bus wire to power the signal when I'm ready.
Will get a resistor at my next trip to Radio Shack. Was thinking of hard wiring the yellow light (so I'll know the signal is powered) and using the tortoise switches for red and green.
Will post a video of the signal and turnout when I get it working properly.
Thanks again!
Jonathan
i wouldn't hard wire the yellow. you'll either have the red or green lit anyway so having the yellow also lit would be redundant, as well as unprototypical. with most signal types, there is never more than one light lit per head.....
btw, whose signals are you using?
I picked up a Tomar, target signal at an LHS, for a good price. Wanted to get one to learn with for now.
Eventually, I will be looking for the B&O-style CPLs (pricey). Need to build some confidence before I dive in with both feet. I have considered scratchbuilding some signals, but my skills aren't up to that level yet. :)
Regards,
Jonathan
oregon rail supply makes kits for pennsy style signals. you can substitute b&o style heads as they use the same circuit boards. you'll probably save about half the cost if you build them yourself from kits.
Many thanks, folks, for guiding through the electrical maze. Here is the progress on my project to date. This is a 9" wide shelf, along my far wall, that is used for engine servicing and some industry.
When switch is thrown to main route, the light is green:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN3477.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN3482.jpg)
When the switch is thrown to the spur (divergent route), the light is red:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN3480.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN3479.jpg)
Here's my somewhat crude soldering job on the switch machine. White is common wire to current, red wire is red light, green wire is green light, blue wire is the other side of the current.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN3484.jpg)
This is what it all looks like before the wires are tucked up and the skirting is removed:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN3485.jpg)
Hopefully, no one minded I put this in General Discussion. Seemed like an all-scales kind of topic.
Thanks a million!
Jonathan
that is a beautiful signal.
on a related note, were you aware that the p&le used this type of signal in places? b&o had trackage rights over the p&le from mckeesport, pa to west pittsburgh, pa and many of their trains used the p&le to avoid the sharp curves and steep grades on the b&o's own line. so your signal might not be so out of place after all.......
Bonus!
Thanks, Jeff.
Regards,
Jonathan
I started drawing you a circuit this morning, but then the power when off. Only just now got it uploaded, but in the meantime, I see you have it all worked out. I have posted the diagram anyway because it shows a second way of doing the job while leaving all the switch contacts free for other uses.
(http://members.shaw.ca/sask.rail/LED-to-Tortoise.jpg)
The left hand circuit shows essentially what you have. The right hand circuit includes the cross-wired toggle switch to operate the Tortoise. This second circuit works by lighting up whichever LED is connected to the negative motor terminal. Which motor terminal is negative depends on which way you set the turnout. While I have shown equal 1k resistors, you could just as easily use 680 ohm and a 330 ohm resistors for balancing the colours.
Great photos. You have the eyes of an artist.
regards,
Jim
Thanks, Jim. I must be an artist at heart. I usually don't worry about prototype with scenery. I just do what feels good. I have been swinging more towards prototype-thinking as of late.
I was going to attempt to wire the lights per your second diagram. I couldn't noodle out the polarity problem because all the lights in the signal share a common wire. That led me to believe I couldn't change the polarity of the individual signal LEDs without changing the polarity on all the LEDs. Thus, I would have either 'lights on' or 'lights off' and couldn't select which LEDs to light.
Still learnin'
Regards,
Jonathan
ironically, as this discussion was taking place i was installing tortoise motors on my layout. i realized that an atlasd twin is two dpdt switches with the contacts cross wired as per jim's diagram. no wiring of contacts together, as it's already been done internally.
(https://secure.atlasrr.com/mmMOD1/Images/210.gif)
the two contacts on the side are dc power in, the two sets of contacts on the top go to the tortoise. flip the switch up or down to throw the tortoise. wiring a tortoise is thus made as simple as wiring a traditional switch machine........