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Discussion Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: rookie on November 09, 2010, 11:51:39 PM



Title: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: rookie on November 09, 2010, 11:51:39 PM
Just purchased one of these. I love the engine but it just doesn't seem to go through the turnouts without derailing. Does anyone else have that same problem? Why is that? i can run my diesel engines all day with no problems. I have all atlas snap switches except one Walthers curved switch. The two wheels on the front are the problem. Right now i'm running it with the 2 front wheels off. Also the drawbar just slips over the post on the tender and doesn't seem like it stays hooked as it should. Anybody out there? thanks, david


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: Atlantic Central on November 10, 2010, 12:29:42 AM
That locomotive will no run through snap switches, they are too sharp.

A snap switch is equal to 18" radius through the curved portion, that loco is not recommended for anything less than 22" radius, and personally I wouldn't run one on anything less than 30" radius and # 6 turnouts.

Sheldon


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: jonathan on November 10, 2010, 07:46:57 AM
Also,

You can bend the draw bar up, ever so slightly and gently.  That should keep the draw bar engaged on the pin.

First, make sure the draw bar screw is screwed in all the way.

Regards,

Jonathan


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: bobwrgt on November 10, 2010, 08:26:38 AM
Some will make it thru 18in radius with no problem. Some won't.
Check the wheel gauge of the front wheels to see if they are in gauge.
Sometimes the wire between engine and tender keeps the engine rear from swinging out. Try a few different positions for the wire. Bend the wire so it does not rub on the draw bar.
Make sure you are using the last hole in the draw bar.
If you have a small spring or small copper strip you can glue this to the top of the front truck so there is more down pressure on truck.
If the main drivers are staying on the track thru your switches the problem is with the front truck.
Look close and see if it is hitting anything on the front.

Bob


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: ebtbob on November 12, 2010, 10:18:16 AM
Rookie,

     A question for you.   You say that you have Atlas snap switches.   Does that mean you are using #4 switches?  If so,  then the advice previously given probably applies.   
     If you are using #6 turnouts then there may be a fix for you.  The following four photos are from my Flickr account.  any    My photos show me fixing a Peco turnout,  but the fix should work on an Atlas turnout as well.   It is easiest if the guard rails are plastic.

First image is a Peco turnout prior to the alteration

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4131/5169495306_1883e18a54_b.jpg)

Next image shows the styrene and size I use.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4063/5169495308_d9c9a68f89_b.jpg)

Next image shows the glue that I use + the installed shim.  Note that it is much easier to install if cut longer than actually needed.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4131/5169495306_1883e18a54_b.jpg)

Final picture is the finished turnout.   By putting the shim on the guard rail,  the flange of the wheels going into the curved portion of the turnout will be forced away from the frog - hopefully eliminating derailments.   I have done this fix on all my turnouts and have next to no derailments anymore.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4056/5169495316_4a54d43de4_b.jpg)

    Hope this helps.   If anyone out there wants these images sent to them via email,  contact me off list at ebtbob@verizon.net and make your subject line say Turnout fix.


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: ebtbob on November 12, 2010, 10:20:39 AM
Sorry all,

     My third image is incorrect.   Here is the correct image showing glue and installed shim.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4003/5169495312_ae8ac68826_b.jpg)


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: glennk28 on November 12, 2010, 10:00:17 PM
If  you can get a die (to thread a rod) for#2-56 scerews (or possibly #4-40)--thread the bottom end of the drawbar post on the tender--and put a nut on the post. 


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: Atlantic Central on November 12, 2010, 10:13:35 PM
Bob,

Just for the record, Atlas orginal snap switches, which equal 18" radius, measure out to be #3.5 - very sharp and with a curved frog.

Atlas does have a neww 22" radius snap switch, but based on the info given I suspect the OP has the sharper ones.

The loco in question will not run reliably on 18" radius, let alone go through a #3.5 frog.

Sheldon


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: ebtbob on November 12, 2010, 11:14:50 PM
Sheldon,

      I understand what you are saying,  but my original question stands.   The term "snap" gets used incorrectly many times.   I hear it all the time in the train store where I work on Saturdays.   Many people apply the term to all of the Atlas track,  including #6 turnouts and even the bigger ones in the code 83 line.


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: rookie on November 12, 2010, 11:34:27 PM
Bob,
      I suspect you are correct about the terminology on snap switches. the correct information for me would be that i have atlas #540 series left and right remote turnouts. Would # 4 or #6 turnouts be a better option? I am running an 83 code 22 degree Atlas track. I only have one curved switch and it is a walthers with, i think, a 24 degree radius. Sory for the confusion but don't let it stop you from giving advice........ thanks, david


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: simkon on November 13, 2010, 12:17:11 AM
Go with #6 turnouts if space allows to be safe.


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: ebtbob on November 13, 2010, 08:04:46 AM
David,

     Simkon is correct.   Anywhere that space allows,  #6 turnouts are the way to go regardless of what code rail you are using.   I think those stock numbers you gave are #4s correct?   If so,  then you may continue to have derailment problems whether you use my fix or not.   BTW....also understand,  if you get under 22in radius curves,  most manufacturers do not recommend diesels with 6 wheel trucks,  assuming you may or may not have diesels.


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: glennk28 on November 13, 2010, 12:36:19 PM
We all tend to think that just because a locomotive has ten drivers that it has a long wheelbase.  Some years ago out club in Marina CA was building a new double-track wye/yard throat module.  At the time my SP 4-10-2 was the loco with the most drivers, so they used it to test the curves and switches--First showe we took it to nt brass daylight wouldn't take certain critical curves--we compared it and found that the 4-8-4 with 80" drivers had a longer rigid wheelbase than the 4-10-2 with 63" drivers.  (Some Bachmann GS-4's would get through since they had a bit more side play)

So--you might find thyat other loocos will have trouble in those snap  switches.

Bottom Line--always build for the largest locomotive you mightr ever run.  (Or--as the late John Allen did on the G&D--builf to force yourself not to buy the bigger engomes that won't run on your layout. 

gj


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: rookie on November 13, 2010, 01:00:18 PM
Bob,
      I believe those turnouts are numbered 451 and 452. One is a left and the other is a right. It does not have a number elsewhere so i don't know whether they are #4's or#6's or what else they could be. just from looking at pictures i would guess that my switches are shorter than the #4 or #6's. I am assuming the problem lies in the length of the turnout?  Everything i have is 22 degree radius, while obviously these kind of switches are straight with right or left turnouts. thanks, david


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: simkon on November 13, 2010, 01:35:13 PM
You can measure you turnouts measure the departure of the turnout (how far it goes to the side) and the length. A 4:1 ratio is a #4 and a 6:1 ratio is a #6.


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: Atlantic Central on November 13, 2010, 02:17:47 PM
Atlas #540, 541, 542 & 543 are 18" radius snap switches as I discribed in my first post.

That loco will no run through them.

I suspect #6's or MAYBE Bachmann #5's are likely the smallest turnouts that will work.

Atlas #4 Custom Line turnout are really #4.5, BUT my Spectrum heavy 4-8-2's will not run through those, so I doubt the 2-10-2 will.

Glenn, you are very correct about rigid wheel base vs number of drivers. A small loco like a Russian Decapod has five coupled drivers, but a relatively short rigid wheelbase for so many drivers - a scale 18.67'.

However, the 2-10-2 in question has a scale 21' rigid wheel base. A GS4 has a scale 21.5' rigid wheel base - not much different in this case. Both are way too big for the type of trackwork the OP is trying to use.

Again, my Spectrum 4-8-2H with a scale rigid wheelbase of 18.25' will not run through an Atlas #4 Custom Line - so expecting the 2-10-2, which is very similar in construction, to run through a snap switch is beyond hope.

Sheldon


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: bobwrgt on November 13, 2010, 05:31:21 PM
You have to take into acount that the 2-10-2 has a blind driver (no flanges). The 4-8-2 heavy has no blind drivers.

Bob


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: ebtbob on November 13, 2010, 06:10:00 PM
David,

      When you bought the turnouts,  if they came with 1/3 18in radius curve then they are #4s.  A second point to look at....if the turnout is 9 inches long then it is a #4.  The #6 turnouts from Atlas are 12 inches long.  BTW.....Atlas does not make anything smaller than a #4.


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: OldTimer on November 13, 2010, 06:28:39 PM
Atlas stamps the part number on the bottom of the piece of track. 


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: Atlantic Central on November 13, 2010, 06:59:03 PM
ebtbob,

The snap switches which come with the 1/3 18" radius are not #4's - they measure out to be #3.5 but have a curved frog.

The Custom line #4 is not really a #4 either, it measures out to be a #4.5

John Armstrong covered this in serval of his track planning books many decades ago.

bobwrgt,

That one blind driver is unlikely to compensate for the very sharp nature of the turnouts in question, especially since the loco manufacturer recommends 22" radius as the minimum - we can take that to mean 22" radius through a turnout as well.

Both an 18" radius snap switch or a #4 Custom Line have a subsitution radius that is less than 22".

And Bachmann also recommends 22" as the minimum for the heavy Mountain.

Sheldon


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: glennk28 on November 13, 2010, 07:40:33 PM
The mention of John Armstrong in this context, with the snap switch, brings up a story.

I railroaded with John and Ted Stepek back in the mid sixties when the Army had me at Walter Reed Medical Ctr.  He was sharing some of the letters that people who were building layouts from their track planning books had sent to Atlas--we  were assisting him in diagnosing their problems.

One fellow insisted that there was no way that a pparticular track would fit.  It got down to a location that John had specified a "Snap Switch" on one end of a track that diverged and returned.  Turned out that our builder considered the "Snap Switch" inadequate and substituted a #4 Customline.  The change in the frog angle causwed an alignment problem half-way around the layout.  When our hero replaced the Customline with the spercified Snap Switchy, everything fit.  gj


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: ebtbob on November 14, 2010, 01:19:27 AM
Sheldon,

      I realize you are trying to offer the most precise info,  but in all my years on this hobby,  I have never heard an Atlas turnout referred to as a #3.5.   Bottom line,  more than 90% of the hobbyists that I know refer to Atlas switches as #4s,  #6s,  #8s,  etc.   I go back to my comment.  If the turnout is 9 inches long,  it is a "#4"  If it is 12 inches long it is a "#6".    I now respectfully bow out of this whole conversation.


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: rookie on November 14, 2010, 01:38:34 AM
Ebtbob,
         I haven't looked yet but i'm pretty sure that the switches in question are the same length as a straight piece of track which would make them 9" long. Do you feel pretty confident that the 2-10-2 would operate well if i switched, (pardon the pun) to # 6's? thanks, david

By the way, thanks everybody for your input, your answers to my questions on here have become invaluable to me.


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: Atlantic Central on November 14, 2010, 02:09:28 AM
ebtbob,

Atlas product #540/541 - left/right hand remote snap switch, 18" radius - not labeled a #4 by Atlas, comes with 1/3 18" radius and with such is equal to a 18" radius piece of "snap track" and straight portion is 9' long - this turnout has a curved frog - but by North American Railroad practice of unit measure is aprox. a #3.5

Atlas Product #561/562 - left/right hand Custom Line #4 turnout - no switch motor, no 1/3 18" radius piece - not the same as the product listed above - WILL NOT REPLACE A SECTION OF 18" RADIUS - has straight frog at 12.5 degree angle - by North American Railroad practice of unit measure is ACTUALLY a #4.5 - BUT it too is 9" long along the straight portion.

Atlas Product #563/564 - left/right hand Custom Line #6 turnout - no switch motor, no other accessories included - has a straight frog at 9.5 degree angle - by North American Railroad of unit measure is a #6 - measures 12" along straight portion.

You can call the first two items both #4's all day long, that does not make it so or make them interchange with each other - they will not - the "snap switch" is much sharper than the #4 Custom Line turnout and has a curved frog.

But both are STILL too sharp for a Spectrum 2-10-2. The third will work fine for the 2-10-2

Next time you'r in the hobby shop, get a "snap switch", an Atlas #4, and a Walthers #4 and lay them all one on top each other - you will clearly see they are all three different angles - so they can't "all" be number 4's.

The Walthers will be the only true #4, with the "snap switch" being sharper and the Custom Line being more gentle than the Walthers - because it's really a #4.5.

These facts have not changed since I first worked in a hobby shop - 1969.

When it comes to trackwork, precise is very important - it's what keeps our trains on the track - or not in tis case.


Sheldon


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: Atlantic Central on November 14, 2010, 02:12:56 AM
David, are you using flex track? I ask because the #6 turnouts will not "fit in" to sectional track curves.

Yes the 2-10-2 will run fine through #6's, but it alos requires larger curves for good operation, at least 22" radius, and bigger would be better.

Sheldon


Title: Re: Spectrum 2-10-2 derailments
Post by: rookie on November 14, 2010, 02:28:37 AM
Sheldon,
          Yes i am using flex track although not everywhere. I'm using some straight pieces and all are 22 degree radius. I'm not having trouble on curves. thanks, david