Who here wants to talk about theEastren Narrow Guage Railroads. I would like to talk about the east rather than the west is because of my opinon on the western narrow gauge; it's toooo popular!
Dusten,
Maybe the fact that the Colorado narrow gauge systems are sooooo more well known leads to the impression of being more popular. The plain fact is that in the east all you have is the East Broad Top, the Tweetsie, and the Maine two foot systems here in the East. Now I realize that there are other VERY small ng roads such as the loop at Allaire State Park in New Jersey, but I refer to the "big boys" of the narrow gauge world.
The basic problem for the eastern roads is - in my opinion - two fold. First is the lack of public awareness. I never even heard of the EBT until 1985 and the Tweetsie even later. The second thing is the fact that any ride in Colorado is bound to be more spectacular than anything we have here in the East. Even if the EBT could open to its full length, and wouldn't I LOVE to see that, the scenic views could not compare.
All that being said, no railroad can take the number one spot in my heart and replace the EBT. The EBT is surrounded by several big urban areas that are within a four to six hour drive. If you live in that area, and can afford the time and gas.....the EBT is well worth the visit. Be advised, the railroad only operates on Saturday and Sundays, three trips a day.
Bob
Good Morning All,
Sorry, meant to post this pic with my above post.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/rrpa_photos/14588/thumbnails/Picture%20228.jpg)
Bob
It is too bad that the
EBT does't get the support that it really needs.
It might get more support if it could get speeder rides into mt union from orbisonia. They have extended track south of orbisonia but not north to mt union. To me that's strange and a real waste of time and effort. Considering that speeders can run on just about anything makes the trip to my union more interesting.
I bet if the Doe River Gorge can get a good steam locomotive running on it, it would become just a bit more known. I have not herd a lot of about the EBT or others, I am more well known with Tweetsie and all the ones below the mason dixie line. I have seen the EBT wesite but would like to know some more about it. I would like to hear and share info on narrow gauge railroads all over the east. Please share some knowlage.
Good Morning All,
One thing you have to understand about the EBT. While it is within 4 hours or so of several major metropolitan areas it is in the middle of basically nowhere, in one of the most depressed portions of the state of Pennsylvania. While the Colorado railroads are also in the middle of no where, so to speak, they at least have things for the tourists to do while the EBT does not.
If you were able to do a poll of the people with the most passion for the EBT, I think you would find that most are railfans not tourists. Remember, a study done a few years back said that a good tourist railroad is a ride that is less than an hour total as tourists are not looking for the same things that the railfans are. The EBT gives you that type ride and the one thing I consider as a plus is the fact that the engine can be turned at both ends so that it never runs tender first, thus, a slower ride in one direction.
Bob
I have never ridden a western narrow gauge, but I have been in Colorado and through scenery such as the western narrow gauge traverses. I have to disagree with Bob. The EBT scenery is spectacular, but it's different.
He's right that there is the EBT and the trolley line in Orbisonnia, and nothing else. There's not even a McDonald's, IIRC. He's also right that tourists like short bites. I'd love to see the EBT able to offer the ride it does for the tourist and a longer ride for the fan. Question is, where else can the engine be turned other than where it is today? Would it be necessary to open track all the way to Mt. Union to the norh or Robertsdale to the south? I imagine the scenery would be greater to th south, but what restoration is needed for the bridges and tunnels? And then there's the fact that the track runs through somebody's backyard!
I understand there is now a bed and breakfast in Orbisonnia, but other than that, the closest motel is 20+ miles away.
BTW, there was a logging narrow gauge in Southside Virginia, bringing logs to the James River south of Jamestown.
Gene
Dusten:
There has been some discussion of this topic on the On30 portion of this site - although the latest post was on June 3rd.
You might want to check that and perhaps add your thoughts there.
Regards
Ned
Ned: Actually, I think Dusten started that thread on the On30 board, and it kind of died. I think Bob Rule's comments are pretty much on the mark. I'll add some of my own thoughts. I think part of the allure of the western narrow gauges is that they are wrapped up in the whole ethos of opening the wild west. Iron ponies and wooden cars struggling against high mountain passes, blizzards, Indian attacks, the whole chase for precious metals, etc. They also had the benefit of surviving long enough to draw fans with cameras and notebooks to help spread the word. The Rio Grande didn't quit runnnig freight service until 1968. The SP's Oweyno branch lasted until 1961.
By contrast, outside of the EBT and Tweetsie, nothing of consequence in narrow gauge hung on past the 1930's in the east. The EBT, with it's modern locomotives and mostly all-steel car fleet, could easily have been mistaken for just another coal-hauling short line. Tweetsie probably had more "charm", but the narrow gauge was gone by the end of the 1940's. The Sandy River quit in the mid-1930's. Same with the Waynesburg and Washington.
The three foot gauge sugar cane harvesting railway of Godchaux Sugar hung on in Reserve, LA, in to the late 1950's. Here's its No. 7 in December, 1958:
(http://lh6.google.com/image/Gregg.Mahlkov/Rl4Lgr3td6I/AAAAAAAAAes/lOg0Wp3D55c/s800/C%3A%5CDocuments%20and%20Settings%5CGregg%20Mahlkov%5CMy%20Documents%5CMy%20Pictures%5CGodchaux7.jpg)
How could one not fall in love with a "teapot" like No. 7? 8) ;D
I donno! ;D I like my locomotives a bit more boilerom!
Gene
(spelling "errors" intentional)
There was lots of east coast narrow gauge during the boom years of narrow gauge 1871-1883. Any successful east coast narrow gauge common carrier in a populated area was gone by the 1890's. The successful routes were all standard gauged once narrow gauge was realized a bad option.
Harold
I have toured and ridden the EBT several times and the best place to find a motel is in Altoona, some 50 miles away. Speeder rides to the picnic grounds and back would be okay, but how about speeder rides south from Mt Union on the existing track and then expand from there. That would add interest and potential income. At least Mt Union has a McDonalds. ;D
That engine is a beauty, and yes I did start eastern narrow gauge time in On30, but it kinda got derailed. I am looking for comments on both G-scale and other narrow gauge scales. Please inform me on eastern narrow gauge lines, I really would like to about the Hawiian lines to and also the alaska ones as well.
Rock On & Live Strong
Dusten Barefoor
Good Evening all,
First of all, let's talk accomidations at or near the EBT. True-a new bed and breakfast has opened just adjacent to the railroad property and - surprise, surprise, it is already near on impossible to get a room. Secondly, Motel 22, a two star at best - has reopened in the past few months. I stayed there many a time in the past and it is what it is, a place to sleep, bath, and get to the railroad in about 20 minutes. The place is just west of Mt. Union or Rte 22 about two to three miles. I have no idea of cost or what the accomidations are like now, but I know that I went past it several times over a span of at least six months and there was work being done to the rooms. Huntingdon is the next closest place with a selection of rooms, but remember that is a college town and at certain times of the year it is packed. Also, it is close enough to Penn State that on football weekends, well just don't show up trying to find a room.
The talk of the EBT scenery being spectacular or what - I guess is a matter of opinion. Remember, this is the east and we do not get the grand vistas that you get in Colorado. The EBT has a charm all of its own and if I were King of the World, and had to open the line one way, it would be south into the mountains to Robertsdale. The fact that the railroad goes thru someone's back yard is, as I understand it, their problem if the railroad was to open up. Using that term again, as I understand it, there was something about the abandonment that is different for the EBT in comparison with other railroads and so, that abandonment may not necessarily stop the railroad from taking back some land. I really am not sure, and this would be a good queston for Lance Myers at the EBT Yahoo Group. Aside from the backyard though is the question of the Pogue bridge and the tunnels. Millions of dollars would be needed just to fix the tunnels, let alone the bridges etc.
So, the EBT is what it is. A 5 mile line with beautiful little mikes that roll along at a brisk 15 to 20 miles an hour and you can listen to the whistles echo off the surrounding hills.
Bob
Tweetsie has lots of great Hotels and Motels just about 5 minuts from the railroad. If you ever get the chance to go to Boone, you will have Tweetsie, Blowing Rock, and Mystery Hill. Does anyone have any info on any were abouts on equipment from the ET&WNC?
Coming from the south, the place to get a room is Downes Motel Number 2 in Ft. Littleton, which is an exit from the Pa Turnpike. There is a restaurant in the town and a grocery store which also sells subs.
Downes is also, at best, a two star motel, but clean, with large rooms and no frills. Downes Motel Number 1 is across the turnpike and looks like it has been closed for at least ten years. Up the highway towards Orbisonia about five miles there is a building with a "hotel" sign on it, but it looks like it might be the setting of a great horror movie and I think the only operational part of the hotel is the sign.
Gene
Bob;
Don't be too quick to toss the eastern systems as next to unimportant. A lot of unusual things were a part of that collection of roads and gauges. As an example, the Cog Railway at Mt. Washington, is still running, and has the most unusual gearing system I have seen.
The Boston, Revere Beach and Lynn railroad was unique in three aspects: it was electrified, it had a Scherzer rolling bridge-on wooden pilings-, and it was elevated! Oh, By the way...Three of it's passenger cars were de-electrified and sold to-yep; you guessed it...The East Broad Top!
Also, the Maine two-foot system was the smallest railroad listed bu the ICC as a common carrier-which it was, unless you want to scoff pulpwood, slate, and toothpicks! as revenue. While I never met either Lin Moody or Ellis Atwood, I got to ride on thier trains around the Atwood plantation-that railroad was of course, a collection of two-foot equipment and steamers cheated from the junkmen, that pretty much put "Ellis in Wonderland"...
Not for nothing, but the first railroad in the US-the Granite Railway up in Quincy Mass-was one of those eastern narrow-gauge roads... There are others-the list can meander on...
I'll grant you, there is nothing quite like the thrill of three-foot in Colorado; but us easterners had our bantam trains too...Ayupp.
"Next stop...Watah-ville!"
Rich
Rich
The mt Washington trip is spectacular and even has one grade of 37%. The new trackwork is something else as the old switches required about 9 different moves to change. Don't forget to bring a coat. It will get chilly on the hill ;D
Two of the Maine Two Footers (B&SR/B&H, and the Monson) made it into the 1940's, survived the WW2 scrap drive and formed the basis of the collection firstly at Edaville and now at Portland.
There are active Yahoo groups for those interested, and a spinoff group to scratchbuild build On2/On30 stock has just been started. See the posting under the On30 heading for more info,
Terry2foot
Rich,
I feel you totally misunderstood my points. The original thought was that the Colorado ng roads are way too popular. I only tried to say why that may be. I do not belittle any narrow gauge railroad's contributions or popularity in any way, especially the EBT!!
Maybe the best thing that can come out of this thread is some education as to the existence either then or now of eastern narrow gauge railroads.
As was stated, many of the roads disappeared from the scene as many as 70 to 80 years ago. That fact alone is one of the biggest reasons for the lack of knowledge. How does one find out about them? Well I think first, their very existence has to be made known, somehow and then a person can pursue iniformation.
As I think about the original posters premis, maybe instead of talking just eastern narrow gauge, maybe the thread should be about narrow gauge railroads in general, and not necessarily just in the U.S.
Bob
I did this once before, but I'll do it again to pass some info. It's just a list off the top of my head of eastern narrow gauge lines.
Two-footers
Sandy River & Rangley Lakes and predecessors
Monson
Wiscasset, Waterville and Farmington
Bridgeton and Harrison
Billerica & Bedford
Three-footers
Peach Bottom
Lancaster, Oxford & Southern
East Broad Top
Waynesburg & Washington
Pittsburg & Western
Tionesta Valley
West Virginia Central
Twin Mountain & Potomac
Clover Leaf Route
Ohio River & Western & prececessors
Lawndale
Mann's Creek
Pittsburg & Castle Shannon
Bradford, Bordell & Kinzua
Kendell and Eldred
New Berlin & Winfield
That's the best I can do without being home at having Hilton's book in my lap. Again, though, the biggest problem is that most of these lines were gone or absorbed early in the century, meaning virtually no one alive today has any memory of them in operation. Documentation is scarce to non-existent. As we've noted before, the Colorado roads lasted long enough to generate interest and a following, and you can still go out there today and put your hands on the "original cross". And I'm not sure how many folks have a big interest in modeling a road that carried milk, chicks and eggs as opposed to the gold and silver ore, minerals, livestock, etc. that characterized the Rocky Mountain lines.
Add the Tuscarora Valley, and the Newport & Sherman's Valley to that list--both located in EBT territory (with the TV at one point contemplating a connection with the EBT.) Both lines on the opposite end of the spectrum from the EBT in terms of equipment and traffic, but very typical of 1900s eastern narrow gauge.
As for the popularity of the Colorado railroads, it doesn't matter what the trains carried--they could have carried bubble gum. It's the scenery through which they carried it. Look at the portions of the D&RGW that are commonly modeled. Notice how the Alamosa - Antonito stretch is rarely on anyone's radar screen? No one wants to model flatlands with sagebrush. But Cumbres Pass? Chama? Durango? Definitely...
I think eastern narrow gauge railroading has its appeal, but it lies more in the charm of the equipment and structures than the--sorry to say--rather generic scenery. I think you'll find that in the model railroads that depict each region. The western lines have a much greater emphasis on scenery, often with floor-to-ceiling rockwork. The eastern railroads tend to be (in my experience) more focused on towns and individual scenes.
I do think, however, that there was far more variation in equipment in the east than in the west, so it's easier to find prototypes that match one's individual tastes. As much as I love the EBT, I find myself equally fascinated with the Tuscarora Valley. It really was the antitheses of the EBT, with minimal equipment and almost totally second-hand locomotives.
Later,
K
Add Smithfield, Sussex and Southampton in southside Virginia.
Gene
You forgot one of the most impotrtant ones, the East Tennessee & Western North Carolina ;).
Bob;
I may have misinterpreted context here. Certainly, I didn't think any less of you or what you had to say. If nothing else, you have a right to say it here, and I certainly have gleaned much in the past from your words and others.
The one common thread the demise of narrow gauge by and large, shared; was that their economical reason for being became no more; or at very least, superfluous by trucks, etc; the latter pretty much negating the claim that the midget boomers could "go anywhere, and do it at a fraction of the cost of their "wide-gauge" bretheren".
In the grand scheme of things, the "romantic notion" we here share about [them], while having charm and passion, hold little more for reason to being. If one wants to delve into the depths of the history that these stalwart little iron ponies are part of, there is plenty of avenue for that; the availability of narrow gauge stuff being mute testimony to that end. I regret never really having rode on the "Sandy River"s baby dude car, the "Rangeley",or cracking my head in the cramped quarters of #24, or Forney #10, but that is my misfortune. I certainly consumed the literature from the likes of Moody, Day, and others, which was in itself enjoyable.
In that the D&S and the C&T are that popular is the result of a lot pf people and resource coming to the table at the same time with the same enthusiasm-I for one, am glad they did-I only wish that there had been more like Atwood here in the east to have done likewise.
In terms of scenic beauty, the EBT travels through some pretty wonderful scenery-and the SR&RL did also-Franklin County, Maine is beautiful any time of year.
My first exposure to the plausibility of narrow gauge modeling came from an article by Dave Frary and Bob Hayden, may years ago, about Strong Depot, in Maine. UNtil then, I hadn't really given it a thought; although I knew it had existed; I do feel that the information was then and obviously is now, available to those who are so inclined.
RIch
Ebtnut
you missed the Kennebec Central in your listing of the Maine Two Footers, Bridgton does not have an "e" in it, and the B&B was in Massachusetts,
Terry2foot
you missed the Kennebec Central in your listing of the Maine Two Footers, Bridgton does not have an "e" in it, and the B&B was in Massachusetts,
Heavens to George Mansfield...
Rich
(PS: Did the Billerica and Bedford really count? Incidentally, for those interested; Billerica is pronounced "Bill-rica". Gotta be from the No'th Shoah").
Quote from: r.cprmier on June 21, 2007, 03:48:20 AM
you missed the Kennebec Central in your listing of the Maine Two Footers, Bridgton does not have an "e" in it, and the B&B was in Massachusetts,
Heavens to George Mansfield...
Rich
(PS: Did the Billerica and Bedford really count? Incidentally, for those interested; Billerica is pronounced "Bill-rica". Gotta be from the No'th Shoah").
of course the B&B "counts"! ;D
it was a functional, operating railroad..(although for less than a year!)
but still, it operated, so it counts! ;D
all the equipment from the B&B, locomotives, cars and track, then went to Maine to start the Sandy River Railroad, the first 2-footer in Maine.
so even though the B&B wasnt in Maine, it was certaintly the ancestor to all the other Maine 2-foot railroads.
Scot
Quote from: SteamGene on June 20, 2007, 03:45:54 PM
Add Smithfield, Sussex and Southampton in southside Virginia.
Gene
NO!!! Not Smithfield!!! >:(
Gene, it was the Surry, Sussex, and Southampton; named for the counties it ran through.
Jerry
Complete list of New England two-foot railroads.
(railroads that actually operated..there were a few more "paper roads")
all in Maine except the B&B and Edaville.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Billerica & Bedford Railroad
Sandy River Railroad
Phillips & Rangeley
Franklin & Megantic
Kingfield and Dead River
Madrid Railroad
Eustis Railroad
Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes
Kennebec Central
Monson
Wiscasset & Quebec
Wiscasset, Waterville and Farmington
Bridgton & Saco River
Bridgton & Harrison
Edaville
----------------------------------------------------------
Sandy River Railroad
Phillips & Rangeley
Franklin & Megantic
Kingfield and Dead River Railroad
Madrid Railroad
Eustis Railroad
- all became parts of the SR&RL system.
W&Q became WW&F
B&SR became B&H.
so after all the mergers and re-naming was done,
we were left with the Five "final" seperate Maine 2-foot railroads:
Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes
Monson
Wiscasset, Waterville and Farmington
Bridgton & Harrison
Kennebec Central
the B&B started it all.
Edaville saved what we have today. (all except for #9 of course)
Scot
Jerry,
You're right. I didn't go back and check. At least I didn't use Scotland Neck, though I understand that is close to the James River terminus.
Does any of the RoW still exist in a visible form?
Gene
Scot,
there is no e in Bridgton
Terry2foot
thanks Terry!
noted and corrected.
Scot
Well, as I said, I was working off the top of my head. I should have remembered the SS&S, since one of their lokies is preserved at Allaire, NJ. Note also the the Southern Railway had a narrow gauge subsidiary in the same region as the SS&S. FWIW, my model (On3) Cumberland and Susquehanna RR connects the WM Lurgan line with the EBT at Neelyton, essentially following the proposed route of the Peach Bottom Western Division.
so even though the B&B wasnt in Maine, it was certaintly the ancestor to all the other Maine 2-foot railroads.
Scot: Not to worry, I am just busting your chops.
Nope: Sad news. The Festiniog railway in Wales, is the grandaddy of all two-foot roads.
Actually, I was just spoofing you. The B&B appeared in the ICC reports way back then. It was a common carrier; though I opine that most of it's freight was balderdash and surrepticious meanderings. The B&B was sold to a Mr. brown, of Maine... And was sold back when Mansfield started his goings-on in Maine. Moody's book-first printing, is pretty interesting reading, if you can ever get your hands on one. Great for a winter's eve, snug and toasty warm by a fire (in the fireplace) in your home. His recollections are so vivid and coupled with his colourful dialogue, you can almost smell the combination of coal smoke (yep, the SR did indeed burn coal-sometimes-and the scent of steam and oil at places like Kingfield and Strong; as well as almost hear the oversized whistle of these lilliputian midgets hollering for the balls (signal) as they readied their sortie; your mind setting a stage for long past replays of crack passenger trains like the Rangeley Express making thier way through the snow and ice, while their charges sat warm and safe(?) esconced in thier seats. Some (I believe all) of the Sandy River's passenger cars sported steam heat!!
Rich
Quote from: SteamGene on June 21, 2007, 11:11:51 AM
Does any of the RoW still exist in a visible form?
Gene
Gene, there's not much left of the original SS&S RoW. I have not been able to pinpoint any of it. According to Crittenden's book, "The Comp'ny", there are some Virginia secondary roads that were built on the Row, but I have not made any effort to follow them.
Jerry
:-* Dusten it would be simpler if you requested a Hog Warts Express in On30...Royce
What? Hog Warts? I have been tring to get a good Tweetsie Ten-Wheeler! Was the hog warts even narrow gauge? ??? :P. I think the hog warts will be good for the HO market.
A few other lines,
some mentioned above, some not, all forerunners of the Maryland & Pennsylvana:
Maryland Central and the York & Peach Bottom - merged in 1891 to form the Baltimore & Lehigh - converted from 3' to standard guage in 1900.
The York Southern converted from 3' to standard guage in 1895, the two lines joined at Delta Pa after the B&L conversion and formed the Ma & Pa in 1901.
Sheldon
There are many road crossings that are paved over as well as many trees along the right-of way between the picnic grove & Mt. Union. If I recall the other direction out of Orbisonia is only used to get coal at the coaling dock & not much further. Having ridden it several times (and attended a few Fall Spectulars) it is a nice ride as well as a nice photo chase.
Re: EBT - At present, the steam trains only go north from Orbisonia/Rockhill to the picnic facility at Colgate Grove. Over the past couple of years volunteers have cleared away the trees and installed rail braces (and a couple of new ties) on the track south of the coal dock. This is speeder territory only, but the ride now extends almost half a mile to just short of the first public highway crossing. Several of the old speeders, and the M-3 railtruck, have been refurbished, so there is a variety available to ride.
There was a LOT of NG in the east at one time. Not many know but many of the lines in Ohio were 3' when built and re-gauged later in life. For example, the line past the former family farm that is now Ohio Central was 3' at one time in the 1800s, ditto on a lot of others. Even here in the South, there were parts of the NC&StL that were 3'....
The OR&W and the other PRR line, W&W, both scream to be modeled, a few do, but not to the volume that one would think. Why? The problem is, after the depression/WWII what was extant (visited, published and photographed).....Colorado and the EBT to a lesser amount.
The great Southern Railroad started from the simple little ET&WNC narrow gauge line. Who would have thought ::).
Dusten, the Southern started from the East Tennessee Virginia & Georgia Railroad. ;D ;D Royce
Though a significant part of the Southern Railway did come out of the ETV&G, most of its infrastructure and financial worth came from the Richmond & Danville. These two companies, along with literally dozens of others, were reorganized into the Southern Railway in 1894 by JP Morgan.
Check out the book "The Great Richmond Terminal" by Maury Klein at www.tarheelpress.com
Dusten, the ET&WNC as a company lasted until the early 1980s', when it was renamed simply the East Tennessee Railway. The line then ran from Johnson City, TN to Elizabethton. In the past 18 months, the line to Elizabethton has been abandoned (not yet torn up), but the company is seeemingly doing well as a switching operation between CSX (old Clinchfield) and NS (old Southern ) around Johnson City. The grand old enginehouse still stands at their headquarters.
Whops, my bad ;D.