Why was my question about Kadee Couplers deleted? ???
So here, I'll ask it again. Will Bachmann in the future ever mount their rolling stock with Kadee Couplers? The reason I ask this is because all of the people at the model Train Club that I belong to change them out, because plastic springs just don't work....like the kind that are on McHenery Couplers. They come uncoupled all the time, or break. The reason I like Kadee so much is because they are made of metal, have magnetism, and have a spring.....and they are not flimsy like the plastic ones.
Since Kadee couplers is mostly on more expensive engines from other companies, it would be really nice if Bachmann could make a few cars, or engines with Kadee Couplers. Bachmann engines are really nice, and pretty expensive. Might as well put on some good couplers right? Saves everybody the trouble of changing them out for good couplers. Sorry to cut down plastic couplers, but they really are terrible.
Now.....what was the reason that my first post on this get deleted? Is it not good for business that I tell you the truth?:-\ If I were in charge of a company, this would be information that I would want to know.
Changing couplers is one of the first things you need to learn. Since Kadees cost more than the cheap plastic ones, Bachmann and others don't use them. You have to pony up the money yourself.
I've often wondered about this myself. When engine's these days are $200-$300 what does an additional $5 for Kadee couplers matter. It could probably be even less than that if you dump the cost of the original couplers.
That being said, I completely understand why Bachmann doesn't use Kadee's. B-mann makes their own couplers, so that's what they should use.
Kevin
When it comes to couplers, Kadee and Bachmann are competitors. Why should Bachmann use a competitor's product?
If you like Kadees make the switch.
Yes, Bachmann makes their own couplers.....but they suck. Any hard core model railroader knows this. Plastic is cheap....and plastic springs are crap. They wear out within about a month of use. You can keep Kadee's on your engines for years without any problems. And they can handle heavier loads too. Thats a standard for NMRA.
I haven't seen a McHenry or Bachmann coupler with a plastic "whisker" spring in years. All of mine have metal coil springs (that work well enough). Are you buying old stock? Plastic knuckle couplers are inferior because of the tolerances/slack/weak material. The springs are a non-issue.
Craig
I got a Silver series crane and boom tender witha 2007 copyright on the box and the couplers had the plastic knuckle whisker and then ordered new spot light cars that had the metal coil spring MK2s which still got replaced beforethe first run.
Stephen
Because it's their company, and they don't want to. And, a lot of brass, which is the most expensive stuff, comes with no couplers.
Quote from: Trains Again on June 17, 2007, 02:36:50 PM
Yes, Bachmann makes their own couplers.....but they suck. Any hard core model railroader knows this. Plastic is cheap....and plastic springs are crap. They wear out within about a month of use. You can keep Kadee's on your engines for years without any problems. And they can handle heavier loads too. Thats a standard for NMRA.
The NMRA doesn't have a standard coupler.
Craig,
Let me suggest that you have not bought anything from Athearn lately, including their nice ready to run stuff. It all comes with the original style McHenry or Bachmann EZ Mate I, the couplers with the plastic "cat's whisker" used to keep the knuckle shut.
Bob
While my first preference is Kadee with their metal coil springs in the knuckles and metal centering springs in the coupler pockets, I use E-Z Mate II couplers (with the metal knuckle springs) if a unit comes with them. The plastic centering springs seem to work and keep working reasonably well as long as the coupler is not held to one side for a long time, such as can occur with improper storage. When they seem a little weak, a puff or two of Kadee Greasem or other graphite usually gets them working again. Couplers with plastic knuckle springs have only one use on my layout - with the shank snipped off and a coat of rust coloured painted, they server as litter along the right of way.
Quote from: BillD53A on June 17, 2007, 08:43:47 PM
Quote from: Trains Again on June 17, 2007, 02:36:50 PM
Yes, Bachmann makes their own couplers.....but they suck. Any hard core model railroader knows this. Plastic is cheap....and plastic springs are crap. They wear out within about a month of use. You can keep Kadee's on your engines for years without any problems. And they can handle heavier loads too. Thats a standard for NMRA.
The NMRA doesn't have a standard coupler.
Look it up again. NMRA always goes with Kadee Couplers. My friend is high up in NMRA.....and thats what he tells me. Obviously, he would know.
Quote from: Jim Banner on June 18, 2007, 01:42:32 AM
While my first preference is Kadee with their metal coil springs in the knuckles and metal centering springs in the coupler pockets, I use E-Z Mate II couplers (with the metal knuckle springs) if a unit comes with them. The plastic centering springs seem to work and keep working reasonably well as long as the coupler is not held to one side for a long time, such as can occur with improper storage. When they seem a little weak, a puff or two of Kadee Greasem or other graphite usually gets them working again. Couplers with plastic knuckle springs have only one use on my layout - with the shank snipped off and a coat of rust coloured painted, they server as litter along the right of way.
Haha! Thats a great idea! That would make really good scenery! Make a really good load too on an HO flat car or something......have some rusty old looking couplers. I never even thought of that. Thats a great idea! ;D
Ithink there is some elitism here. The new Bachmann couplers seem to work fine on trains that are a normal layout train length. This reminds me of the people who say "Bachmann and Life-Like are crap," when they haven't seen an example of either that is less than 20 years old.
Trains Again, if your original post contained the language of your second posting on this thread, you might be lucky that it's only your post that was deleted. You can be polite and still emphatic.
As to your friend who works for NMRA, what is his position that he knows the NMRA standard is the Kadee? Show me that section in the Standards Manual. Just because he works for NMRA, doesn't make him an expert. As an example, you'd receive no useful information from me on tank gunnery beyond a few minor, general comments. I'm retired army, but I'm not a retired tanker. Thank St. Barbara.
Gene
Trains Again,
First, I and many others agree with you about ALL the plastic generic knuckle couplers,
BUT, the way you approached this topic is why you where deleted, not what you said. I, and others, have discussed this at great length on here before, but without attacking Bachmann or any other manufacturer with words like "suck". That is simply inapproperate.
At the end of this post, I will post again a detailed piece I wrote on this once before.
As for the NMRA, Gene is right and you are misinformed. There is no NMRA Standard or Recommended Practice for any specific type of HO coupler, just a standard for coupler height. Like Gene said, look it up at www.nmra.org (http://www.nmra.org) The NMRA started a coupler committee about the time I was born 50 years ago, they still don't have a "standard" coupler.
If you understood anything about business, you would understand the economical reasons why it is not practical for the manufacturers to install Kadee couplers. Not to mention the fact that I would bet more than half the model trains in North America never see a Kadee coupler. I doubt Kadee could make enough of them for the manufacturers without a major gearup in capacity.
Gene,
"elitism"? Well maybe so, but after loosing a brand new Athearn Ready to roll car off the end of an incomplete track and on to the floor because of "those" couplers not working right out of the box, I will change ALL of mine thank you. Not to mention the detailed reasons listed below in the previously posted coupler "essay".
Couplers
I will outline as simply as possible why all the generic knuckle couplers (EZ mate, Proto, McHenry, etc) are not as good as original Kadee couplers. But before I do, let me say that for their intended purpose of providing an inexpensive universal coupler for the North American Ready to Run Train Set market, these generic couplers are OK, not great, but OK. With trains of limited length (10-20 cars) on typical track work, they do work as well or better than the horn hook X2F that preceded them.
All of the generic knuckle couplers in question suffer from the following problems, some brands more than others regarding each problem.
The knuckles are larger than Kadee couplers allowing considerable more slack in the train. This becomes a serious problem as train lengths increase. This excess slack contributes to down hill uncoupling or emergency stop derailments and uncoupling. This also increases coupling distances between cars which is an appearance problem. As I will describe later, this is not the only part of these designs that increases slack, making matters even worse.
The pivot holes in these couplers are generally larger than Kadee so that too increases slack. In addition to problems of slack and sagging, this can work with the centering springs to tilt the coupler sideways, affecting it performance.
The shanks are thinner in the vertical dimension, combining with the loose fit of the pivot to allow the coupler to droop, or when under load, allowing it to work up and down causing uncoupling at vertical curves at the beginning of grades or uneven sections of track. This droop also results in the pulling faces not being parallel, contributing to the problem of one coupler working up over another, rather than sliding slightly on vertical curves.
The integral cast on springs require that the material used be soft and springy, this makes the knuckle too weak. This is why they fail on long trains, and may account for the loss of knuckle springs on those versions with separate knuckle springs.
All of the integral cast springs (centering or knuckle) are subject to fatigue when left in a loaded condition, this than causes failures when the train is moved.
Good coupler performance requires that slack be minimized, coupler shanks be parallel to the track, and coupler heights be precisely set - the generally sloppy and poor fit of these couplers in most of the existing coupler boxes on the market is the main cause of their poor performance with long trains.
Several others have commented about using Kadee couplers exclusively in the Kadee coupler boxes. While this does eliminate any problems of poor fit, it is only necessary in a few cases. Athearn cars for example can benefit greatly from the simple operation of squaring up the bends of the stamped metal covers and/or crimping the cover onto the box with a pair of pliers.
Sheldon
Look it up?
Here is the Standard.
http://www.nmra.org/standards/pdf/S-2.pdf
Here are the Recommended Practices.
http://www.nmra.org/standards/pdf/rp-21_1.pdf
http://www.nmra.org/standards/pdf/rp-21_2pdf
They say nothing about Kadees.
Sheldon,
"Elitism" in the sense you mentioned. Most people run trains of such a length that 10-20 cars is a long train. I throughly agree that if you go beyond the 20 car length, you'd best swtich to Kadee, at least for the first 90% of the train. But that's the unusual. To suggest that the normal runner of model trains automatically put in Kadee is the elitism part.
Several years ago in the Gafton club, several members who habitually ran long trains wamted to make a change in the Standards bylaws to requie nothing but Kadee knuckle couplers. The bylaws were changed when the clones came out. It got defeated because members like myself pointed out that those who needed to run only Kadee should know that and not force Kadees on members who did not need them.
If I have cars which come with Easy-mate and they need conversion - I convert them. The combination of my George Washington has Kadees because the Easy-mate couldn't handle the weight of th complete train. But the Pullmans, for instance, have Easy-mate because they are on the end of th train and aren't subjected to as much force.
Gene,
Agreed! As I said in my "essay", the generics do work for their intended purpose.
And that is why I don't belong to any formal clubs. In the words of WC Fields "I would not belong to any club that would have me as a member".
For me personally, it is about performance and appearance. Car spacing is a major detail point for me. All the generics fail this test as well.
Another factor, again, for me, is mixing the two types, I have seen that cause trouble as well, dispite claims of "interchangeablity". I don't use any of the new "scale" couplers for this reason as well - not to mention their less than adiquite gathering range on NMRA standard track.
So thank you for for promoting me to the "elite". Or maybe it is just the neurotic perfectionism my father gave me.......
But what do I know, I'm just a hick with........
Sheldon
Sheldon - as usual you are right on the mark. Simply put, Kadee couplers are the Cadillac (or Lexus or Mercedes) of couplers. The others are copies done after the Kadee patent expired and they do an adequate job.
Kadees, properly applied to rolling stock, will last for many years with just a little maintainence from time to time. As with anything else you get what you pay for.
Quote from: SteamGene on June 18, 2007, 10:32:04 AM
...
If I have cars which come with Easy-mate and they need conversion ...
If your cars come with Bachmann's HO knuckle couplers then they are
E-Z Mate. ;)
For those not knowing,
E-Z Mate magnetic knuckle couplers uses space-age material (type of plastic) for the knuckle spring.
E-Z Mate Mark II magnetic knuckle couplers have a metal coil spring.
Kadee makes the magnetic knuckle coupler of choice for many modelers.
Trains Again:
I have EZ Mate Mark II couplers on all my cars, including Bachmann, Atlas and Athearn. For me, they have performed quite well. I will continue to enjoy my railroad even though my couplers don't come up to your "hard core" standards.
If you like Kadee, that's wonderful. Change anything you want.
The purpose of this forum is to exchange ideas and suggestions, to find answers to problems, and provide a means of mature fellowship in a wonderful hobby. Bachmann has provided us this tool at considerable expense. Your derogatory descriptions have no purpose here and are very inappropriate.
Bo
Quote from: Bojangle on June 19, 2007, 04:38:05 AM
Trains Again:
I have EZ Mate Mark II couplers on all my cars, including Bachmann, Atlas and Athearn. For me, they have performed quite well. I will continue to enjoy my railroad even though my couplers don't come up to your "hard core" standards.
If you like Kadee, that's wonderful. Change anything you want.
The purpose of this forum is to exchange ideas and suggestions, to find answers to problems, and provide a means of mature fellowship in a wonderful hobby. Bachmann has provided us this tool at considerable expense. Your derogatory descriptions have no purpose here and are very inappropriate.
Bo
You seem to have gotten the wrong impression about me Bo. I'm not sure where your coming from with all of this, but I assure you that I'm not here to start a fight. You seem to be very upset right now. I think it would be wise for you to cool down before returning to this forum.
Nothing upsets me. I just said that your comments were inappropriate.
You see, it's all about free speech. You are free to say what you want, and I am free to disagree. Your post has already received more replies than it deserves, so I won't respond anymore. I expect to be on the forum nightly.
Bo
Trains Again,
Bo wasn't the only one to comment on your choice of vocabulary ( set your decoder ring to "S -1") ;D. It's possible that you really don't know the original definitions of some of your word choices, but I assure you my mother would have washed my mouth out wth soap had she heard me use them.
Gene
I can see you guys would rather have fun cutting me down rather than talking about the actual Train related topics.
Sorry, I'm not here for childish debates. I talk trains on here. Thats all.
Topic closed, and locked.
Trains again,
Your original post was deleted because:
a) It was rude in tone.
b) It contained inappropriate language.
c) It made no sense, viz:
Why doesn't Chevy put Ford motors in the Corvette? I like Ford better...
Why doesn't ABC advertise NBC shows? I like them better...
Why don't the Yankees hand out Red Sox baseball card? I like the Sox better...
I left this thread up because many people patiently tried to explain this to you, but instead of accepting advice graciously, you remain contentious. If you continue in this spirit you will do so elsewhere.
A word to the wise...
the Bach-man