Mr. Bach Man,
Should I continue to modify E33 frames to accept my brass E44 bodies, or can we expect to see an E44 from Bachmann in the future?
Rich Clark
Dear Rich,
None has been announced, so keep working...
Have fun!
the Bach-man
I think that the E44 would make alot of people in the hobby happy especially in HO scale...
Terry
Of course, as long as they get the Conrail paint scheme done right...
With the E60 re-release coming closer, I figured it was an appropriate time to resurect this old topic. Is there any chance of an E44? And on a side note, will we ever see an E33 in N-scale?
Let's be gentlemen and not mention Penn Central or Conrail on this board.
I ran in horror as the grandson of a friend of mine proudly showed me the HO layout he built in his play room. It was really nice but when I saw his PC GG-1 (he said he got a deal on Ebay) I froze. Yikes.
Equally horrible is any GG-1 in Conrail blue (or where they black - couldn't bear to look too long - afraid of eye damage) with that silly white can opener thing on its side.
I vote for an E-44 in NH colors!
Quote from: Woody Elmore on September 29, 2007, 08:37:37 AM
Equally horrible is any GG-1 in Conrail blue (or where they black - couldn't bear to look too long - afraid of eye damage) with that silly white can opener thing on its side.
Only one Conrial GG-1 got that honor, and that's because it had been painted into bicentenial colors. ;D
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff83/Penncentral/cr4800bicen3.jpg)
The rest loked like this. :'(
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff83/Penncentral/xpc4811cf.jpg)
I agree, Conrail was less than imaginative in their paint schemes.
Nice idea about the NH E44. Do you mean in green and gold, on in orange and black? Somehow I can't imagine an E44 in green and gold.
Rivets was painted CornRail blue.
GG1 # 4800 (originally 4899) was the first of the class. It had a riveted car body. In 1978 it was painted in Conrail Blue. It was the only G to get that paint job. In 1969, 4902 was painted blue with yellow lettering to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the driving of the gold spike. In 1955, 3 units, 4866, 4872 and 4880 were painted silver.
From 'The GG1 Homepage'
http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/paint.html
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr4902a.jpg
(4902 in American Railroads Centennial blue)
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cr/cr4800r.jpg
(Rivets in CR blue)
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cr/cr4800atd.jpeg
(Rivets in Bicentennial)
All from George Elwood's "Fallen Flags" website
Sorry, the last URL was supposed to be:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cr'cr4800atd.jpg
AAARRGGGHH!!!
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cr/cr4800.atd.jpg
(you already saw a picture of that anyway!)
OK, Woody;
You rattled the bushes and out I came...I'm with you!!! New Haven GG-1!
ONLY.........in PRE-McGUINNES Pullman Green and Imitation Gold. Can't you just see it now...a BIG New Haven herald in resplendant calligraphy on the nose! I love it!!!!!
Rich
PS: No one will believe me about the DL-109s painted in aluminum with white pins and herald. I used to see them on the Old Colony line a lot as kid.
I realize that there are people who model the Penn central and Conrail.
The PC was a sad era for railroading in general and I just never developed an interest for Conrail. Look at the picture of the Conrail GG-1 posted above. I think it's awful (remembering riding behind a GG-1 with the gold cat whisker striping.)
I never did see a real Conrail GG-1 with that wheel and rail logo (which I call a can opener.) My recollection is seeing a model in custom (!) paint at one of the Timonium shows. Very weird looking.
The New Haven had lots of interesting color schemes but I remember the electrics in orange and black. I was very happy to see that they (the MTA?) restored an FL-9 to the Maginnis colors. They were in awfully bad shape.
The New Haven green was classy and much nicer than the later circus colors. I have no idea if the E-44's were ever painted in green and gold.
E-44s-EF-4s-"Bricks"-were all painted red with the white striping and black lettering. I don't know who did the artwork for the New Haven, but they did a classy job-always...except for that "PT Barnum" paint scheme. Have you ever seen the picture of the DL-109 in that paint scheme? I am not one to feel sorry for a mechanism, but the poor loco deserved better! All I can think of is Dumbo in that awful clown costume.
To me, that paint scheme represents the worst era of New Haven history -and the New Haven had a history of rapacious board members, and nefarious operations.
The E-33 "brick" was one of the more intelligent moves the New Haven made in purchasing them from the "Virginian". They provided dependable service to the freight operations-especially hauling the "float trains", and the TOF trains. These wre rugged, well-built engines,and had been well-cared for by their parent railroad. There is a picture of one night shot at Oak Point yard, in which one is raising its pan to the wire. What a beautiful picture!!
The other "motors", with the exception of one EP-3 and all of the "jets" (EP-5s) were all left green and gold. The New Haven "motors" were a really neat looking, well-running group of locomotives, products of Baldwin, Westinghouse, and GE. I would love to see them reporduced in HO scale at a reasonable price.
RIch
When I was a kid a neighbor got a Lionel train set with the model of the EP-5 jet. Even though I had a GG-1 I thought that engine looked great in the tri-color scheme.
Too bad that New Haven didn't spend more time on getting the railroad to make money rather than invest in colorful and expensive paint jobs.
Their coaches that were copied by American Flyer - dark green with aluminum window frames
Sorry I didn't finish that last post - the coaches copied by American Flyer were really very elegant looking.
The movie "the Out of Towners" (the original, with Jack Lemon not the ridiculous remake) featured the New Haven railroad.
Woody;
The New Haven was involved as a setting for several movies, including "It Happened to Jayne" (1958). I do not like the "tri-colour" scheme. I see paddy McGuinnes's stupid smirk in every time I see it.
It would still be interesting to see that GG-1 in NH livery. Got one to try it on? I have the paint...
Rich
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff83/Penncentral/NewHavenGG-1.jpg)
Too much bright red, I think.
How many of the The New Haven "motors went to conrail and amtrak.
Quote from: RAM on October 01, 2007, 10:10:07 PM
How many of the The New Haven "motors went to conrail and amtrak.
McGinnis scrapped all the motors except the 10 EP-5's :'( :'(. The 12 EF-4's were bought from the N&W after McGinnis left, and one was held for parts. The EP-5's were notoriously unreliable, and every single one had at least one major engine fire during their carreers. Only eight survived to Penn Central in 1969. All 11 EF-4's survived to PC. The EF-4's were built for freight and kept that job until 1980, when Conrail took down the wires. Two were preserved, and the rest scrapped. None ever went to Amtrak. PC originally planed to use the EP-5's for passengers, but due to their chronic unreliablity, plus the fact that they were only rated for 90 mph and didn't have a steam boiler capable of a New York-Washington run, had their jobs given to ex-PRR GG-1's, and the EP-5's were regeared for frieght. None went to Amtrak, and only six made it to Conrail. They almost imeditely ended up in the deadline, and were never even given a CR stencil. All were scrapped :'(.
In short:
Amtrak: None
Conrail: 11 EF-4 (plus one for parts)
6 EP-5
Conrail;
That is NOT the NH livery I was referring to.
RIch
I think the lurid paint job on that poor GG-1 pictured above has damaged my vision.
Yes the red is wrong - so is everything else.
More sad GG-1's, coutesy of the New Jersey Department of Transportation.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff83/Penncentral/GG-14876NJT.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff83/Penncentral/GG-1s.jpg)
It could have been better or worst. For better, imagine AEM-7's, and ALP-44's, in Tuscan Red, with gold cat whisker stripes, keystones on the cab fronts, and "P E N N S Y L V A N I A" on the sides. For worst, picture GG-1's, New York Central P, S, or T motors, and Milwaukee Road "Little Joe's", in the Acela paint scheme... :o
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff83/Penncentral/acela_gg1_jb2.gif)
:o
Yep...There's one in every crowd. Hide that puppy, willya?
Rich
Oh no! Sad to say I like the Acela GG-1. Looks a heck of a lot better than PC black.
We should take a poll and see which was the worst paint scheme ever applied to a GG-1. My vote is for the "Spirit of 76." Second are the various PC black schemes, third worst would be the CR blue.
My favorite Pennsy color scheme was tuscan red with cat whiskers.
Tuscan Red or Brunswick Green with five pins
Rich
(I still say that the PULLMAN GREEN with Deluxe gold and the prettiest herald in the business would have made a really classy signature. Typically southern New England class! If things had gone a tad different, who knows...)
RIch
I think the Acela GG-1 is sharp. Hell i think the Penn Central mating worms and shiny black paint is fine. I didn't realize New Haven had E44's i thought they only had E-33's. I thought Pennsy had them all. Oh and Conrail dress blue was and still is a very nice paint scheme. If all of those older railroads were so sharp they would still be here. As a modern modeler i am sick and tired of all these retro F series and E series and the early diesels engines in these old paint schemes. But if i had to vote 1st would be the Silver congressional colers and then the dark version of the congressional style.
The New Haven never had any E44's. The only reason they could afford the E33's was that the N&W had no use for them, and sold them off cheap. As for the GG-1's, I say the worst is NJ Transit black with tiny lettering, and Conrail CR stencils. The best was the Pennsy silver scheme(why did the Pennsy have to get rid of it?). I can't understand the Penn Central hatred. When clean, PC paint looked very sharp(of course, PC couldn't afford to clean their equipment, but they could afford to pay dividends and buy theme parks ???). Okay, maybe I do understand some of the hatred.
The PC "hatred" is a reaction to the ruination of what had been two classy railroads and the company being straddled with other no profit lines.
You think the GG-1 in Acela colors look's sharp?! Of all the depravities! Have you no shame?! There may be children in this room! :o
Above my desk at my school office I have a framed lithograph of a green GG-1 with cat whisker striping. It reminds me of the glory days of the PRR. The GG-1s wore a paint scheme planned by the designer of the engine to complement and enhance its flowing lines.
The wide stripes weren't too bad at all and I'll add that I liked the GG-1 in Congressional silver.
A GG-1 in PC black reminds me of the sad, quick death of two railroad giants. The companies were raided for cash. I get angry everytime I go by Republic Airport in Long Island. Republic Fairchild Aviation (of p-47, f-84, f-105 and a-10 fame) was also put out of business by corporate raiders.
Recently some Long Island politician had the great brainstorm that if more stuff came and went on train, there'd be less truck traffic! It's clueless guys like this who allow stuff like PC to happen.
Sorry to get off topic but Penn Central was a complete disaster. I know people who have PC stock certificates framed on their walls - the frame being worth more than the stock.
Please, no more atrocious GG-1 pictures in lurid paint schemes (but the Acela isn't all that bad!) Ban everything but PRR color schemes. And, hey, isn't the thread about E-44 engines?
And, hey, isn't the thread about E-44 engines?
Yup. E-44 engines...
...And unless I miss my guess, wasn't there differences betwixt the 44 and 33? Like maybe Faively pans v. the standard Westinghouse type pans.
Also, the E-33s I know of had rectification atop the unit, thereby earning it (at least on the New haven) the cuddly name "Brick".
Rich
The E-44's were rectifier units also. Contrary to the opinion of GG-1's in black, I think the E-44's in black with "PENNSYLVANIA" on the long hoods, unit number below the cab windows, and the twin Faively pantographs, were one of the few freight electrics, to look good in that color. ;) After Amtrak decided the E60-CP's to be illsuited for passenger service, I wonder how they would have done, if like some GG-1's, and the P5a boxcabs and modifieds before them, they'd been regeared for freight service, and sold to Conrail. Picture a pair of E60's on the point of a northbound solid string of Tropicana reefers between Baltimore and Philly, or Philly and Kearney, N.J. Or maybe dragging a string of quad-hoppers eastbound through Coatesville, Thorndale, or Paoli, on their way to the Delaware River docks in Philly. ;D
In terms of appearance, I have always liked the Westinghouse type pans on a locomotive. I realize that Faivley pans are good and have their place, as current applications suggest.
I wasn't aware that E-44s were rectifier locomotives; for some reason, I had the impression that they were pure ac. They did look good! What was that electric that Pennsy had with a nose that looked like an Alco FA-2?
I have seen several pics of them, mostly on head opf a freight, or sitting in Enola.
RIch
Are you thinking of one of the six GE E2b experimentals?
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff83/Penncentral/E2b.jpg)
Wow - haven't thought about the E2bs in years. Pennsy was a great railroad - they tried almost every kind of engine out there.
They certainly tried many, if not all the early diesels. They were less adventurous with electrics probably because the electric divisions were not a big part of the railroad.
For the painters out there who like to do "what if" paint schemes - what would a Pennsy E-44 look like (you could say that the Pennsy was trying one or two which they leased.)
Those E2b's are it. They were handsome motors, like the New Haven EF-3s. What is that motor behind that consist in the picture? It looks a little like the New Haven EF-2. I know it isn't but the resemblance is there.
I model mostly steam, but am a fanatic over New Haven "motors"-I thought they were huge, powerful, magificent beasts! What was always interesting was the fact that, technologically speaking, the New Haven was the leader in this type of motive development; especially as the GG-1 was built from the EP-3's standards. As I have many times said, I would have loved to have grown up around Blatchley Ave in New Haven, Ct. Yep: Baseball and the New Haven Railroad!
Rich
Rich
Behind the E2-b's is a P5a, a real failure. The P5's lasted so long not because they were good performers, but because Pennsy managment didn't want to look stupid getting rid of 90+ new electric locomotives, failures or not. The fact is, all the Pennsy-designed electrics were failures. The AA-1's were basically unusable, the L5a's were unreliable, the P5a's were outright dangerous for crews (among other flaws), the R1 was too long, it couldn't make some of the turns on the NEC, and the L6's and 01's were underpowered. The DD-1's and GG1's were based on New Haven designs, and the E44's were based on the E33's, a Virginian design. The DD-2's were basically just modified GG-1's. Naturally, those were the only four that actually worked right.
Not an anti-Pennsy rant, just an interesting observation...
You wouldn't think that, given the close proximity to so much technology such as GE/ALCO, Westinghouse/Baldwin, that things would have been a walk in the park for Pennsy's motor development.
I know that the New Haven had some very progressive-thinking people in the right places at the right time. New Haven engineers (non-train) were a lot of the cream of the crop, and were used extensively in places like the Cascade Tunnel, the Hoosac Tunnel, too many bridges to count-and of course in the electrification of Milwaulkee Road, etc, B&M through the tunnel, etc.
It is not too "out of the box" to realize that, given the talent pool and the successes of the New Haven, the PRR would turn to them, both for tech, and also to try to acquire it. Also, it is ironic that, during the PC consolidation, one of the stipulations the PCC had to agree to was to take in the New Haven. Ahhhh, things do change, do they not??!
Rich
The PRR, Standard Railway of the World, had a very cheap - er, parsimonious, management, They ran engines into the ground so even though their electrics may have been duds, the money was spent and the engines used.
One of the two prototype magazines - either Trains or Railfan, ran an article about the early days of the PC. Both railroads had engines laid up that were inoperable because they were run until they were junk. PC management had to basically search every siding in both systems. There were diesels that had been cannibalized for their motors or other parts and just left sitting but still on the inventory as being operable.
Don't get me started with the PC.
Actually, the Pennsy's DD-2's were the Great Northern's Y-1 class boxcabs come East, when the GN sold them to the PRR after de-electrification of their Cascade Route. One of which (but to my knowledge, not acquired by the Pennsy) was rebuilt after a bad accident, with a couple of EMD F-unit bodies spliced together, as a replacement carbody. From what I read, one of the problems the Pennsy experienced with them, was severe interference with the two-way radio system they were using onboard trains, at the time.
As for the P5a, crew survival in a grade crossing accident in the boxcabs (engineer and fireman would see it about to happen "up close and personal"...), resulted in the P5a "Modified" version, which resembled a shruken GG-1. Same locomotive mechanically, and could MU with the boxcabs, but with a "centered" cab. There was also at least one P5b, an upgraded boxcab, but no others got the modifications given to that unit. The majority of them lasted in freight service, until around 1966.
Quote from: Frankford el car on October 23, 2007, 11:54:22 PM
Actually, the Pennsy's DD-2's were the Great Northern's Y-1 class boxcabs come East, when the GN sold them to the PRR after de-electrification of their Cascade Route. One of which (but to my knowledge, not acquired by the Pennsy) was rebuilt after a bad accident, with a couple of EMD F-unit bodies spliced together, as a replacement carbody. From what I read, one of the problems the Pennsy experienced with them, was severe interference with the two-way radio system they were using onboard trains, at the time.
You've mixed up the names a little. The DD-2 was basically a modified GG-1 with four driving axles intead of six like the GG-1 had. A single experimental was built, and was judged to perform no better than the GG-1. No more were built. The GN electrics the Pennsy bought were clasified FF-2. Here's the interesting part. The Pennsy, for some reason, bought seven Z1's and one Y1a(the one involved in the collision). The Y1 was held for parts, while the Z1's were actually used. I personally never understood why the Pennsy bought: a. The weirdo of the bunch(the Y1a), and b. the older Z-1's as opposed to the newer W-1's.
The Great Northern's W-1's had four drive axles, per main truck. The same as you state the DD-2 experimental resembling a GG-1, was equipted with. I think the Virginian (original owner of the E-33's) also had some W-1's, though I don't remember if they carried the same class designation on the VGN. They might have even been the units from the GN, after the Cascade Division was de-electrified. The only other electrics in the US to have the same four-drive-axle configeration per main truck, were the Milwaukee Road's and South Shore Line's "Little Joe's", and the Milwaukee Road's Bi-Polar's. Now THAT would be an interesting sight, in New Haven McGinnis colors.
Now THAT would be an interesting sight, in New Haven McGinnis colors.
McGinnis? MCGINNIS??? Curb your tongue, Knave!! NOTHING looks good in McGinnis colours; in fact, the only colours HE looked good in were black and white!!!
On to other things:
The Virginian had a rather humongously behemoth electric "motor". What was that called? It was bigger than a EF-3, and had Westinghouse pans.
RIch
RIch
If you're referring to some Virginian electrics that resembled the Milwaukee Road's, and South Shore Line's "Little Joe's", I think they're the same units I suspect were purchased from the Great Northern. I've seen photos of them in the VGN's blue-yellow paint scheme, and believe they are one and the same.
I don't think the Virginian electrics were little Joe's. I think they were gone before the Milwaukee Road's, and South Shore Line's stopped running the "Little Joe's"
I'm still trying to figure out what that huge Virginian electric was, but I'm certain it wasn't a Little Joe. Two reasons: A: The Viginian's catenary was shut down crica 1962. The Milwaukee scrapped its electrification in 1973, and the South Shore stopped electric freight in 1983. The Pautista Railway in Brazil de-elctrified in the late '90's. All ran their Joes up until the end. B: The Little Joes were built to run on a D.C. electrification system. The Virginian's was A.C. At best the Joe wouldn't have worked. At worst, the Joe would have caught fire. Rebuilding the Joes to work on an A.C. system would have been as expensive as buying a new locomotive altogether.
The GN W-1's and Pennsy DD-2's were not the same locomotives, though they had the same wheel arrangments. Notice the difference in trucks (and carbody).
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff83/Penncentral/tr_prr5800.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff83/Penncentral/tr_gn5019.jpg)
They ran on DC? Off of the wire? Why? That would be a horrible way to get power, as AC can travel farther than DC over greater distances, and to run DC via catenary would have required some pretty expensive components.
I would think [they] electrified with a nominal voltage, such as 11,000, dropped it per unit's equipment, EG a transformer, and rectified it . I can verify this by saying that the EF-4s the New Haven had bought from the Virginian were set up for, I believe, 11,000VAC, stepped down and rectified (see "bricks") to the pressure the traction motors required.
Historically, that is where Edison lost out, because he believed in DC as a good power source, whereas George Westinghouse proved him wrong with his AC distributon system; and until not too long ago, there were still some areas of New York City that had DC as a utility voltage. Not any more, though.
Rich
The streamlined Virginian electrics were class EL-2b. They were built by GE arrived on the property in 1948. Known to the crews as "roundnoses" and "streamliners." They were operated as two unit sets with each unit having four four axel trucks. They produced 6800 horsepower with a maximum speed of 50 mph. There were four pairs purchased numbered 125 - 128.
They were painted black and yellow, not blue and yellow as mentioned previouly. There were no Virginian diesels or electrics painted blue and yellow. That is Lionel fantasy.
Tom M
Quote from: Woody Elmore on October 22, 2007, 09:22:41 AM
For the painters out there who like to do "what if" paint schemes - what would a Pennsy E-44 look like (you could say that the Pennsy was trying one or two which they leased.)
Pennsy BOUGHT the E44. Pennsy is the reason it exists!
Quote from: Conrail Quality on October 27, 2007, 09:53:57 PM
I'm still trying to figure out what that huge Virginian electric was,
You are thinking of the Virginina EL3A boxcab. that thing is ridiculous, its more like three engines under one road number. It has side rods to.
Quote from: r.cprmier on October 21, 2007, 06:49:38 PM
In terms of appearance, I have always liked the Westinghouse type pans on a locomotive. I realize that Faivley pans are good and have their place, as current applications suggest.
I wasn't aware that E-44s were rectifier locomotives; for some reason, I had the impression that they were pure ac. They did look good!
yeah, the E44 was a upgraded E33. However, the E44s themselves got an upgrade with the last 6 units being E44a models. the E44a had a Silicon Diode rectifier, as opposed the the ancient (1930s tech) Ignitron rectifiers used on the E33 and early E44s.
Eventually, most E44s would be converted to E44a equipment.
This is actually why an E44 model will be tough. There really is no set E44 configuration. At first glance, they look all alike- Boxes with wheels.
However, closer inspection will reveal all sorts of different of vent and louvers were used, especially along the roof line, so there could be issues with that. i've seen all different vent arrangements, and i'm not sure which one would be best, as far as getting in all the paint jobs (Pennsy/Penn Central/ Conrail)
A Spectrum E44 might sell well. How well did the E33 do?
Quote from: Elmore Yard on October 28, 2007, 08:54:55 AM
They were painted black and yellow, not blue and yellow as mentioned previouly. There were no Virginian diesels or electrics painted blue and yellow. That is Lionel fantasy.
Tom M
yeah, but you have to admit, at first glance the black on some of these locomotives looke like a dark blue, atleast in my pictures.
You are thinking of the Virginina EL3A boxcab. that thing is ridiculous, its more like three engines under one road number. It has side rods to.
Not rediculous. They pulled 9000 ton coal trains coal trains from Clarks Gap, WV to Roanoke, Va. from 1926 till the last was retired in 1959. Several were operated as single units for use on local freights and work trains.
They were supplemented by the bigger EL-2bs in 1948 as I mentioned previously. The rectifiers began arriving in October 1956 to begin retirement of the class EL-3a.
Quote from: r.cprmier on October 27, 2007, 11:14:02 PM
They ran on DC? Off of the wire? Why? That would be a horrible way to get power, as AC can travel farther than DC over greater distances, and to run DC via catenary would have required some pretty expensive components.
Rich
The Milwaukee Road electrified at 3000v DC from the wires. Many sources state this , for example seewww.milwelectric.org/HistoryPhotoArchive/history-home-060800.htm (http://www.milwelectric.org/HistoryPhotoArchive/history-home-060800.htm)
(You will need to scroll down a bit). As that source makes clear AC was distributed to substations that sent DC to the wires. Such systems, at 1500 or 3000v DC were and still are quite common throughout the world.
Hamish
Hamish;
What an interesting site! You know, as an electrician, my first instinct in transmission of current is to do so as an AC component; for obvious reasons. I wonder why, with the technological wherewithall available in those days-especially the New Haven's engineering presence in that area of the country at the time (Great Northern had hired the New haven's expertise)-that DC was transmitted over length. OH, well. I learned something new today. Good.
THink Boston will win tonight??
RIch