JP of Acton MA, USA writes,
I am looking for any info on how to wire (or properly wire) a pre war 2 position reverse unit. Any help would be greatly appreciated. (ie wiring diagrams)
I have a pre war no. 252 lionel loco. right now, its 2 position reverse unit is wired so that one position is forward, and the other position acts like an "off" position, cutting power to the motor with track power still on. It should be that one position is forward and the other position is reverse
Is it a 252E, with an E stamped on the door? Can you show a photo of the reverse unit?
JP of Acton MA, USA writes,
The loco is a small 4 wheel center cab electric profile loco. its 2 position direction control lever sticks through the top of the loco at one end. The loco number is 252, but without the "E" designation. I'll try to post a pic, but since I have never posted any pics on this site before, I don't know how to.
Sincerely: JP
One of the ways is to upload to a photo hosting website, like photobucket, then put a link to it in the post.
JP of Acton MA, USA writes,
I have pics, on my HD, of my prewar loco in question, but the file size is too big to upload to this site.
I actually never use photo sharing sites like photobucket or flickr, etc. I am under the impression that I need to create an account to use those sites.
Sincerely: JP
Yes, you would have to set up an account, but it's free.
Found this on-line at: http://www.buylioneltrains.net/trains/250-252-248-series/
"The 250 available in dark green with no reverse and the 252 with hand reverse, introduced in 1926 had similar bodies. The 252 was available in dark, olive green, orange, peacock, mojave and maroon and in 1933 became the 252 E when an automatic reversing unit was installed.
The 252 & 252E were packaged with 529, 603, and 607 cars along with a Macy special colored maroon with cream bead stripe The 252 are the most common of the prewar series with the 250 very rare."
So, sounds like you have a hand reverser. Correct?
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
JP of Acton MA, USA writes
Hi Mr. Satnik,
thank you for the link. my loco has a hand (manual) reverse unit. any info on how they are properly wired would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely: JP
The parts term lionel uses for your reverse lever might be "controller".
Does "Con34" look familiar? Con4 handle?
http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/b123/001314.pdf
(http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz296/joebarb/lionel252.jpg?t=1300899802)
JP,
Electricity path:
Center rail, roller pick up, direction controller and lamp(s).
contact to armature brush 1, through armature and out armature brush 2.
contact to controller, contact to motor field winding, through winding to frame ground,
wheels, outside rails.
Try this:
If not already done, remove or disconnect any bulb(s).
With chassis on bench and unpowered,
Connect one lead of your Ohm-meter to the frame, then start probing with the other lead to measure resistances along the path described above.
Take readings in the "good" direction lever position. Start probing in the "bad" direction and compare to the good. Remember that brush 1 and brush 2 readings should swap.
Let us know.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Edit: Added "brush" in 4 places for clarity.
According to my "Greenberg's Lionel Prewar Trains Repair and Operating Manual", the reverse unit shown in your picture can be wired several ways. Looking at the reverse unit from screw side, with the handle vertical, the most common configuration is:
(A) Top Right Screw - P/U Rollers
(B) Bottom Right Screw - Motor Brush
(C) Bottom Left Screw - Field Winding
(D) Top Left Screw - Motor Brush
The brush wires most always be opposite each other, e.g., either A/C or B/D. If the motor runs opposite the way you want it too for a particular handle direction just swap the brush connections.
Len
JP of Acton MA, USA writes
Mr. Satnik & Len,
Thank you so much for the info about the wiring configuration for the 2 pos. reverse unit.
Mr. Satnik: just wondering what you meant by "contact to armature 1, through armature and out armature 2"
Also thank you for the pic of the loco with the shell off my loco looks exactly like that (minus the lights) inside.
Len: I will inspect the wiring on my loco and make the necessary changes, then test the loco to see if it runs as it should.
Mr. Satnik: I currently don't have a greenberg guide to prewar trains. Would you know where I could get one ?
Also, is it possible to wire the lights (loco is equipped with 2 lights, one on each end) to the reverse unit so that the lights are directional ?
Sincerely: JP
JP,
Unfortunately "Greenberg's Lionel Prewar Trains Repair and Operating Manual" is out of print, and has become something of a collectors item in it's own right. Used copies in good condition sell in the $290 - $325 range.
Many of these prewar units used a green bulb on one end and a red one on the other to indicate the forward and reverse ends. Both were normally lit all the time, and it would probably be considered a major modification to add directional lighting.
Len
Dear JP,
It would have been better had I added the word "brush" in strategic locations in my instructions. I will go back and edit for clarity.
Our statewide public inter-library loan system has a few copies of the Greenberg book. Check with your librarian.
If the book is reference only, ask them to photcopy the pertinent pages.
I thought of connecting one bulb wire to one brush wire, and the other bulb wire to the other brush wire,
but the dimmed bulb would rob current from the field coil, and the bulbs would put extra current on the controller contacts.
(The contacts are probably tough enough, though.) Would have to think of some other way.
If your wiring looks correct and your loco still doesn't work correctly, clean the electrical contacts in your controller.
Hope this helps,
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik of snow and slush covered Upper Midwest, USA
Requiescat In Pace WEAU-TV Tower, Fairchild, WI
Dear JP,
A few thoughts on directional lighting:
1.) You could fashion a SPDT (single pole, double throw) switch by extending the controller's hot (or roller pick up) post taller or radially outward.
You would then mount 2 feelers around (one on each side of) the extended part of the hot post.
Move the controller towards forward, the hot post touches the feeler connected to the front bulb.
Move the controller towards reverse, the hot post touches the feeler connected to the rear bulb.
You would have to be careful that the feelers don't touch anything but the extended portion of the hot post.
Another possible solution:
2.) You could mount a SPDT micro-switch next to the controller.
Fashion an arm on the moving part of the controller that would press down on the micro-switch when the controller was rotated to reverse.
Center rail roller (hot) to micro-switch C (common), front bulb to NC (normally closed), rear bulb to NO (normally open).
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
JP of Acton MA, USA writes:
I rewired my loco this morning, and it runs forward and reverse as it should. A big thank you goes out to Len for his very helpful wiring instructions
Right now there are no lights on the loco, because the tabs that hold the socket assemblies to the shell broke, so I will have to get replacement ones. Any good parts dealers that would sell these parts ?
is there any way directional lighting can be done without an additional switch ? Could the wires from the socket assemblies be connected directly to the direction controller, so that when the controller is in the forward position, the forward light is on, and the same for the reverse light ?
Sincerely: JP
Olsen's Toy Train Parts http://pictures.olsenstoy.com//search_lionel.htm (http://pictures.olsenstoy.com//search_lionel.htm) has repro headlight parts for prewar 'electrics'. There are two basic headlight shell types for the 252, the "SH" style and the "NH" style, depending on when in the production cycle it was made. The other parts are pretty much interchangable.
If you type "NH-", without the quotes, in the Search by Part Number box you'll get a list of the NH bits and pieces they carry. This includes an NH-11KIT with an NH shell and everything else needed to replace a missing headlight assembly. For the SH style they only have the cast headlight shell, and an SH-2KIT with an SH shell and the other parts included in the NH-11KIT.
If these units ran on DC, you could just wire the lamp 'hot' connections to the brushes with a diode in line. That doesn't work so great with AC power. You might be able to adapt the Constant Light PCB from the Lionel RS-11 for directional lighting. the part number is 620-8553-805. Cost is $12.50 plus S&H from Lionel. You can order on line from Lionel's web page. Go to customer service, order replacement parts. Change the search box to "Part name or number" and enter the PN without the dashes.
If you click on the picture icon next to the 'add to cart' quantity you can see a picture. The two 2-pin connectors are for the front and rear lamps. The 3-pin is for the power and return connections. If you search for 2-pin/3-pin harnesses you can find connectors that work. Or you can pull the white plastic pieces off the PCB and connect directly to the pins using wire wrap or soldering.
Len
JP,
Go back and carefully re-read my last 2 posts, which address just that subject.
If any part of what I wrote is unclear, let me know.
To paraphrase my second to the last post, which covers the simplest, (which seems to be what you want) but not the best, modification:
Connecting one lamp wire to one brush wire (or brush wire post on the controller), and the other lamp wire to the other brush wire (post) might work,
but the dimmed (opposite direction) lamp might rob enough field current from the motor that it might lose power and speed.
If you want to experiment.....its your loco.
The way this loco's universal motor, controller and lamps are wired, you can have the simplest mod, which will affect the motor,
or you can add or fashion an SPDT switch, which will not. Your choice.
Joe Satnik
JP of Acton MA, USA writes,
Mr. Satnik,
I did read your last 2 posts about directional lighting, and I had a thought.....what if I used LED lights instead of incandescent lights ? LED lights use a lot less power that incandescent lights, and probably won't rob power from the motor. There is a company (I don't know what that company is though) that makes screw-in or bayonet base LED lights compatible for use in train headlight sockets. Basically the LED bulbs look like an LED encased in a conventional clear glass globe (either large or small) and a conventional base (either screw-in or bayonet) My prewar loco uses screw-in type bulbs.
Sincerely: JP
Len,
http://towncountryhobbies.com/Lionel%20Lamp%20Guide.htm
No locos on this chart call out red AND green colored lamps, which were used on accessories.
I suspect they might have been subbed in when a LHS ran out of clear bulbs or someone wanted to get fancy.
A standard gauge loco on the chart did spec clear and red (or painted red):
1835E
STEAM ENGINE STANDARD GAUGE
PREWAR
432 & 432R OR 432RP
JP,
A smaller globe lamp with less current draw (= less effect on the motor) and an e10 base is the #1447 bulb.
An LED replacement would work, (close to zero current draw) but would have a dramatically different look and color than "antique".
http://www.ledlight.com/e10-screw-base-tall-round-led-light.aspx
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik