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Discussion Boards => Williams by Bachmann => Topic started by: CGLowry on March 30, 2011, 01:36:43 PM

Title: Power Compatibility
Post by: CGLowry on March 30, 2011, 01:36:43 PM
I would like to a purchase Williams Scale Hudson (40201).  I run both TMCC and Conventional Lionel locomotives depending upon my mood.  My layout is powered by a Lionel Powerhouse 180 Watt Power Supply (6-22983) with the voltage being regulated by a Lionel Powermaster 6-24120.  The Powermaster allows you to either apply full voltage to the track, or vary it using a CAB 1 Remote.

I would like to know if this power setup will work without any issues with the Williams locomotive.

Thank you in advance for any advice you may have.
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: phillyreading on March 30, 2011, 03:34:06 PM
You must start at zero voltage when using a Williams engine or it can become like a run-away rocket sled on rails.
TMCC & DCS, command control both, put full voltage to the track and give commands to the engines. Make sure that the TMCC feature is completely turned off!! Then use your Williams engine.

A TPC 300 should work well with a Williams engine. Not sure about the CAB 1, but you would have to start near zero volts with any voltage control unit.

Remember the Williams engines are all conventional, unless you add something to make command control useable.

Lee F.
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: Len on March 30, 2011, 07:46:02 PM
The short answer to your question is yes. As long as the Power Master is set for "conventional", your Williams locos will operate exactly the same way as your Lionel conventional locos.

If you forget and leave the switch in "command", as soon as you hit the boost button your conventional locos will take off like a rocket when they get hit with 18V.

But I suspect you already know that, since you're already switching between TMCC an conventional modes.

Len
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: DominicMazoch on April 01, 2011, 11:14:53 AM
I run TMCC in Conv.  If you re read about the Cab-1, you can customized the controls on the Cab-1 to each locomotive.
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: SantaFe158 on April 10, 2011, 12:16:50 PM
I have the older (pre-bachmann) Williams 773 "Scale" hudson and ran it off of the TMCC 180W brick and powermaster.  Worked fine but I still upgraded it to TMCC with cruise control from ERR (Lionel) and now I can run it extremely slowly and can also just set it to a speed and it will stay at that speed.
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: phillyreading on April 12, 2011, 10:49:53 AM
I have been using the Z-1000 by MTH with my Williams engines, SD-45's, GP-9's, F-7's, and have no problems with slow start speed. Have to be careful to start slowly with the throttle or they will take off very fast.
Have used the Lionel post war ZW & KW and they take off rather fast with either transformer.

To install either TMCC or DCS in a Williams engine, in my opion, is a waste of money. But then, to each his own.

Lee F.
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: SantaFe158 on April 16, 2011, 12:19:13 PM
Quote from: phillyreading on April 12, 2011, 10:49:53 AM
To install either TMCC or DCS in a Williams engine, in my opion, is a waste of money. But then, to each his own.

I never saw a point in it either, that's the whole point of Williams but after buying the 773 hudson I wasn't happy with the running characteristics of it.  By installing TMCC with Cruise control from ERR I can run it way slower and it will keep a constant speed.  For some Williams locomotives you'd be better off buying one already equipped from Lionel or MTH because of the price, but for under $400 I have a TMCC/Cruise equipped steam locomotive that looks and runs great.  Can't wait to take it to the next train show to run on the club layout.

(http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a430/SantaFe158/29a6d0a7.jpg)
(http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a430/SantaFe158/088e5069.jpg)

Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: Joe Satnik on April 17, 2011, 05:33:53 PM
Dear All,

Dropping voltage to the motor (but not to smoke and lights) using diode pairs:

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,15415.0.html

Same theory, but using diode bridges connected (shorted) from (+) to (-) yielding two sets of diode pairs per package (less soldering, less heat-shrink tubing):

http://www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=413&categoryId=559

Daisy chain from ac (~) terminal to ac terminal to further reduce voltages:

 ~bridge with +/- short~---------~bridge with +/- short~-------- etc.  

Here's a diode bridge that's a bit overkill (RS 276-1181) but ok if you have the room:  

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062583

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: Simbo1 on May 12, 2011, 12:38:15 AM
Joe, I tried the diode pairs and I can see that one pair does not really have much effect.  I will need more pairs in series.  If I want to set up four Diode pairs, do I have to do four individual pairs? Or can I just have two sets of four diodes connected together in series and then set up in opposite directions and connected on each end?
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: Joe Satnik on May 12, 2011, 01:09:14 AM
Dear Simbo1,

What you suggest will work, though I think the diode bridges (with the + and - shorted) are an easier and handier way to accomplish the same thing.

Hope this helps,

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik 
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: stubbsO on May 12, 2011, 09:50:43 AM
Why do all that work when you can just turn down the power at the transformer? I use a "Z" at 60% and it runs like it's series wired.
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: Joe Satnik on May 12, 2011, 01:29:10 PM
Dear stubbsO,

The diodes or diode bridges (with + shorted to -) added in series with the DC can motors are used to reduce

the high starting voltages of the old conventional transformers. 

The Lionel "Z" transformer has a starting voltage of 6 volts.

The "ZW" has a starting voltage of 8 volts.

Big difference.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik   
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: rtraincollector on May 12, 2011, 08:45:07 PM
Okay first yes it will work fine with a power-master or a TPC-300
2nd I added tmcc from ERR to my PRR Trainmaster and it was well worth it to me I also rewired the motors so they were in series which also helped a lot. I have a lot better control of the engine with TMCC than I did before. I rewired the engine to series about a year before I added tmcc to it. now for resale value I don't think adding tmcc really helped it any but since i don't plan on selling it it was a good investment to me. I can still always run it in conventional mode also anytime I want.
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: Simbo1 on May 14, 2011, 12:17:26 AM
Joe, can you explain the Diode Bridges?  I get the diode pairs, but it sounds like the Diode Bridges greatly simplify the process.  I'd like that.  I'm installing in a J class WBB loco (which has barely enough room for the pairs). 

Thanks. 

listenin' to the BNSF roll by...
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: Joe Satnik on May 14, 2011, 04:15:14 PM
Simbo1,

Please read carefully through all the links I have provided above, then I'll answer any questions.

The bridges are cleverly wired to produce the same result as separate diodes, but with much less insulation (shrink tube) hassles.  

The first picture in the jcstudiosinc link above shows the (external) wiring diagram for the bridges.

Internal diagram of a diode bridge (with added externally wired + to - short):

(~)----->l------(+)
 l                     l
 l               t     l
--           r       --
/\        o          /\
 l      h              l
 l   s                 l
(-)----->l-------(~)

Remember that current flows only in the direction of the arrows.
In one direction, current flows into upper left (~) to (+), across the shorting wire to (-), then to lower right (~) and out.
In the other direction, current flows into lower right (~) to (+), across the shorting wire to (-), then to upper left (~) and out.

~ to short = 1 diode drop,

~ to ~ = 2 diode drops.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik  

Edit:  Add "Diode pairs or shorted diode bridges may be added to either or both motor wires."
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: stubbsO on May 15, 2011, 11:43:09 AM
Quote from: Joe Satnik on May 12, 2011, 01:29:10 PM
Dear stubbsO,

The diodes or diode bridges (with + shorted to -) added in series with the DC can motors are used to reduce

the high starting voltages of the old conventional transformers. 

The Lionel "Z" transformer has a starting voltage of 6 volts.

The "ZW" has a starting voltage of 8 volts.

Big difference.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik   
That means absolutly nothing. Have you tried what I'm talking about? I doubt not by your reply!
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: Joe Satnik on May 16, 2011, 01:37:32 PM
Stubbs,

You didn't give much detail in your May 12 single sentence. 

Did I guess correctly that you have an old Lionel "Z" (not an old Lionel ZW or a competitor's) transformer?

You said,  "I use a "Z" at 60%", which sounds like a throttle setting. 

Care to elaborate?

Joe Satnik

Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: Simbo1 on May 17, 2011, 08:58:16 AM
Joe,

First, thanks for turning me on to a great site - jcstudiosinc.com.
I installed four diode pairs in my WBB J steamer.  They tamed it a bit but it still runs too fast.  Power is supplied by a 180W Brick ->MTH DCS TIU (which has a starting voltage of around 5V running in conventional).  I'm getting around 50smph at 8V.  I'd like to get that down.  I'm going to try the diode bridges.  It looks like you can get more voltage drop with fewer diode bridges-4 diode pairs reduce voltage by 2.4V and 4 diode bridges reduce voltage by 4.8V.  Do I have that right?  How are they on real estate?  Do they take up a more space than the diode pairs?  (I can always install them in the tender).  How about heat?  THANKS! 
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: stubbsO on May 17, 2011, 12:45:37 PM
Quote from: Joe Satnik on May 16, 2011, 01:37:32 PM
Stubbs,

You didn't give much detail in your May 12 single sentence. 

Did I guess correctly that you have an old Lionel "Z" (not an old Lionel ZW or a competitor's) transformer?

You said,  "I use a "Z" at 60%", which sounds like a throttle setting. 

Care to elaborate?

Joe Satnik


Yes, You read correctly. Turn it down to about half and with a cab1, it works just like wiring in series.
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: Joe Satnik on May 17, 2011, 09:07:39 PM
Dear All,

We are arguing apples and oranges here. 

To clear up some of the confusion,   

Stubbs hasn't mentioned that his setup uses a Lionel TMCC system. 

Previous WBB threads here have already mentioned satisfactory (slower start up) single motor operation using the Lionel TMCC system in conventional mode.

My work has been to reduce the start up speed of the conventional controlled single DC motor Williams steam engines

while still being able to use the old conventional Lionel AC transformers with high starting voltages.

Hope this helps. 

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: Joe Satnik on May 18, 2011, 12:20:02 AM
Simbo1,

Thanks for the kind words. 

Diodes give 0.6V reduction per (back-to-back) pair,

or 1.2V per bridge, though it can be tapped off the +- short for only a 0.6 V drop. 

Dioded pairs or bridges can be in either or both wires leading to the motor. 

Bridges are easier because they can be mounted to the frame, and there isn't as much heat-shrink tubing needed.

Avoid jumping to the tender and back if you can help it.

Hope this helps. 

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik 
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: stubbsO on May 18, 2011, 04:15:35 AM
Quote from: Joe Satnik on May 17, 2011, 09:07:39 PM
Dear All,

We are arguing apples and oranges here. 

Stubbs hasn't mentioned that his setup uses a Lionel TMCC system. 


My work has been to reduce the start up speed of the conventional controlled single DC motor Williams steam engines

while still being able to use the old conventional Lionel AC transformers with high starting voltages.

Hope this helps. 

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

Joe- Sorry to have to rain on your parade but, Why would I post something that doesn't apply when people are talking about using TMCC if I werern't doing the same? You need to think outside the box sometimes! Your always posting on these subjects, you should know better. Why else would I post that I have the power set at 50-60% if I wasn't using some kind of remote control? Seems like it be kinda hard to change locos otherwise if I continually kept the power there all the time would'nt you think? Just amuse me and take a untinkered with, out of the box loco, single or 2 motor and if your using a ZW, put the throttle at the 12 O'clock position or less, and use your cab1 or whatever and tell me your results and what you think. I have even done this with a KW, albeit that there less volts to begin with you'll get the same results. A LW probabaly wouldn't even need any throttle down for the same results. I think you'll see that you don't need to waste time and money on diodes and soldering to get the results you want with this simple easy method. JMHO
I did post this on page 2 but the discussion died with no bodies follow up, so maybe they did what I said and never followed up.back in Jan http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,15710.15.html
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: GTBob on May 18, 2011, 10:31:33 AM
Now, now, now boys.  Lets all take a deep breath and relax. :)

GTBob
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: Joe Satnik on May 18, 2011, 02:40:49 PM
Stubbs,

I think I might have it figured out:

You believe that I hijacked this thread, so you are being (less than cordial) about it.

OK, have it back:

What pieces (and their costs) make up a TMCC system like yours?

Thanks.

Joe Satnik
Title: Re: Power Compatibility
Post by: stubbsO on May 18, 2011, 05:24:13 PM
I'm not tring to hijack anything! And I'm not going to bother wasting my time on this subject with you! Read what I've said and the orginal post!