greetings all! my name is charley and i live in little ol new zealand. im a member of the wanganui model railway club and collect the trackmaster/tomy thomas the tank engine ranges.
i just picked up my first "real" loco yesterday, the bachmann 4-4-0 jupiter and was wondering if excursion cars would look ok as rolling stock? i also bought a model power canadian classic HO set and 1 wagon from that set is the same size as my loco. so would the excursion cars be too big? its hard to tell from photos. i dont want to use standard boxcars or tankers as everyone at the club im a member of has those. i want something unique.
looking forward to any replies. :)
roundhouse makes a line of 1890s wooden freight and passenger cars that would look great with this locomotive. mantua also offers 1800s cars appropriate for use with this loco. i also believe bachmann has a set featuring 1800s cars as well.
The excursion cars should work and you can call it an excursion train.
The other brand mentioned, I cannot comment on them. Not a Bachmann product. The Bach Man does not like other brand sources mentioned as the Bachmann forums would eventually be overcome by other brand discussions.
Rich
thanks jward and rich. sorry for mentioning the other range, but i couldnt figure out another way of explaining the size difference. i just tried running the jupe with a bachmann CN box car i bought and it looked a bit rediculous, the car towers over the loco, lol.
the excursion cars wouldnt look too big for the loco?
the shop i got my loco from gave me last years catalogue and i saw one set that was based on stagecoach cars which looked nifty. they would suit the jupiter but again i dont know about the size difference.
be neat if there was a program where you could use a picture of the loco and select different wagons and it would show how they would look in real life. the store i went to has a great range but they mainly focus on diesels and freight trucks.
thanks again. i will check out the suggestions :)
Quote from: richg on May 28, 2011, 08:17:30 PM
The excursion cars should work and you can call it an excursion train.
The other brand mentioned, I cannot comment on them. Not a Bachmann product. The Bach Man does not like other brand sources mentioned as the Bachmann forums would eventually be overcome by other brand discussions.
Rich
You may mention and discuss the products of other manufacturers, but please don't use our board for their announcements. Also, please refrain from criticizing other manufacturers, as they are not here to respond.
the above paragraph is taken word for word from the forum code of conduct.
reasonable comments about other manufacturers products are permitted, and honestly they give the forum credibility it wouldn't have if it were only about bachmann's products. the way i see it, as long as you don't stand to gain personally from mentioning another product line, you are allowed to mention them.....
Quote from: jward on May 28, 2011, 07:59:21 PM
roundhouse makes a line of 1890s wooden freight and passenger cars that would look great with this locomotive. mantua also offers 1800s cars appropriate for use with this loco. i also believe bachmann has a set featuring 1800s cars as well.
I bought a set of the roundhouse 50 Ft Overlands in the Central Pacific Railroad Of California for the Jupiter engine and they go great behind it. They would be prototypical for the engine you have.
I also have all(but the log cars which i want!) of the mantua old time freight cars and they are also nice cars.
(http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac49/BaltoOhioRRFanCollection/Website/Cp60.jpg)
Theres a pic of my Jupiter by bachmann with the roundhouse coaches
balto, your train looks great! might have to review my excursion car idea, though i like the idea of having a few people actually in the cars.
jward, thanks for that. i read that a few mins ago on the main board. its a good guideline/rule to have.
richg,
Bachmann doesn't have a problem with mentioning other brands here, Ive seen various admins mention other brands, what they frown on is Bashing the quality of other brands because they are not here to defend their products, Ive read that a number of times in differant posts over the years.
NM
sunny-
That Jupiter loco is based on a prototype from nearly 150 years ago. It was an appropriate size and power range for the time but would be completely useless on a modern railroad. However, your idea of using it in excursion service is an excellent one. Excursion/tourist railroads don't concern themselves with prototype or size matchups, nor should they. They use the functioning motive power they have available with whatever rolling stock will fit their needs. So your idea is right on the button. Enjoy your railfan trips!
-- D
thanks, doneldon. :) spent the entire day almost on ebay and google looking at ideas for stock. i love the roundhouse passenger wagons but seems im set on the open excursion cars. figure 1 or 2 of those, with passengers, should be more than enough. it struggled to pull more than 2 wagons from the other set so dont want to overload it.
im going to plan and build a layout for it, so will post photos once i get that organised. found a station with foot bridge that i like so thats a start. :)
Quote from: sunhuntin on May 29, 2011, 01:56:18 AM
thanks, doneldon. :) spent the entire day almost on ebay and google looking at ideas for stock. i love the roundhouse passenger wagons but seems im set on the open excursion cars. figure 1 or 2 of those, with passengers, should be more than enough. it struggled to pull more than 2 wagons from the other set so dont want to overload it.
im going to plan and build a layout for it, so will post photos once i get that organised. found a station with foot bridge that i like so thats a start. :)
I've got two of the excursion cars, i had planned on two 4 car trains of them for tourist travel on a musuem part of my layout. but the cost put that plan on hold and i used the two i had for other things.
I devoted them to my dogs funeral train i made up, just for her, 4 cars and a locomotive
(http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac49/BaltoOhioRRFanCollection/Website/Sarah1.jpg)
each car number and the engine number deal with something about her
The first excursion car was converted into a "casket car"
(http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac49/BaltoOhioRRFanCollection/Website/Sarah3.jpg)
not trying to hijack the thread, just posting uses for the cars even with a main railroad use.
what a neat idea, balto. i found measurements on google and the height of the car is about the same as the smoke stack on the jupiter, which seems massive. how do your cars look behind your jupe?
which ones? excursion? that 4-4-0 is nearly the same size as the 4-4-0 picture in the funearl train
Last time I rode an excursion train, it had some old commuter cars and a couple of open cars made from old gondolas. The open cars were pretty simple, a wood framed roof supported on multiple 4 x 4 posts and a hand rail about 4' off the inside floor. I don't remember if the posts were bolted to the sides or were in stake pockets. The centers of the ends of the gons were cut out to permit a "bridge" from car to car to be inserted, allowing passengers to walk the length of the train while traveling. The gons were rather beat up and the only effort made to restore them was to cover the bottoms with sheets of plywood to prevent tripping. One of them had some rough wood benches, the other was Standing Room Only which worked out well as it was next to the Bar Car. These would make a great kit bash project starting with either some old gondolas or some old flat cars or maybe a few of both.
Jim
sunny-
Jim's right about the open gons. I've seen and ridden in many of them over the years. I would think your American would pull at least two or three. Don't skimp on proper weight for the gons (or other cars) as that will cause derailment problems. If your loco seems a little anemic, add some weight to it. You can add weight until you are at about half of the current draw of the stall draw. Much more than that tends to stress the motor and drive train, especially so if the gears are plastic. At the same time, don't add so much weight that you can pull a dozen cars. Locos like yours pulled trains that were very short by today's standards, six or eight cars max on level track. And that was cars from the era which were very much smaller than today's railcars. A single loaded gon or hopper today would weigh at least as much as your loco and tender.
-- D
thanks, balto. they should look fine then.
thats another good idea, jim. something to work on in the future when im feeling more confident.
d, does rolling stock usually need weight added before use? im quite happy with how the loco is running, though the front wheels seem to skim when its going too fast. at a sensible pace it goes nicely. what do you mean by "stall draw"?
sunny-
Most rolling stock seems to need extra weight to track properly, even the expensive stuff. Too light cars are especially problematic when backing or when in the middle of a long train. In that case, the weight of the train behind the light cars can exert such a load that the light cars between the locomotive and rear end will "clothesline" and wind up pulled off of the track to the inside of the curve.
The NMRA says HO railcars should weigh one ounce plus a half ounce for every inch of length. So a roughly 6" (40') boxcar should weigh about four ounces [1 + (6 x .5)]. Tenders should be similarly weighted but they are less often a problem because they commonly have heavier trucks than regular cars and electronics inside. Too light tenders can be a real problem backing through switches because they can ride right up and over the points. You'll hear some MRs tell you not to worry about weight because all of their cars are light and they work fine. My guess is that they either haven't figured out why they have derailments or they operate mainly short, slow trains going forward only. A few probably just can't admit they don't know what they're doing.
Postal scales and cooking scales are the easiest and most available ways to weigh cars. You can use anything to add weight. The ubiquitous coffee can full of odd screws and hardware usually has some material that really isn't going to get used. Ever. (I have stuff from my Dad's coffee can in with my own. And he's been dead for 40 years!) Use plastic safe glue or caulk to hold your weights securely. Pennies work for about $.17 an ounce, a real bargain compared to the manufactured weights, solder or BBs. I try to put my weights as low as possible though I'm not convinced it matters a lot at our slow speeds. Flatcars and gondolas are the toughest to do unless they have loads. You can often put a false bottom in gons but flats will almost always require a steel plate concealed by the frame, a heavy load or the expensive stick on lead weights. Tank cars are impossible unless you open them up or drill holes in their bottoms for BBs.
-- D
thanks for that, d. its neat learning new things. :)
i myself prefer heavy cars. i find everything stays on the rails when weighted to at least nmra specs. that said, weight is a compromise. too much weight will drastically reduce your locomotive's pulling power, especially on upgrades. and smaller locomotives like the jupiter are more affected than say a larger diesel. on a small steamer there really isn't anywhere to add weight that would increase pulling power.
for weight in cars, i tend to use a couple of different things. for closed in cars like boxcars, i use stacks of pennies over each truck. this gives good weight distribution and it is dirt cheap. for cars like hoppers i use buckshot glued between the bays. for gondolas, it is a simple matter of finding something like cera,ic bathroom tiles that can be used as loads.
for a pictorial on how i used pennies in a tank car, look on this forum for a thread titled "tank car weight"
good advice, jward. thanks :)
Sunhuntin - Your idea of using the Bachmann Jupiter as an excursion locomotive is an interesting one. If you were trying to be true to prototype, the 50' Overland cars are way too large. During its working life (more on that in a bit) this locomotive hauled freight cars of the 34' range and smaller (the Roundhouse cars, being 36' long, are really from the very end of the 19th century to the beginning of the 20th). Passenger cars of 36' (or smaller) length would be more prototypical...unfortunately models or short, mid 19th century cars are hard to come by. Some of the Mantua offerings are the correct size if you can live with their 'toy like' look.
The real Jupiter was built, by the Schenectady Locomotive Works (September 1868), and shipped (via sailing ship and later barge) to San Francisco, CA for delivery to the Central Pacific Railroad (where she became CP # 60). She was a woodburner - which was a species that was rapidly going out of style as coal has much more energy per pound than wood (although there is a heck of a lot more wood available to the CP than coal). The Southern Pacific acquired the Central Pacific in 1895 and renumbered the Jupiter as SP # 1195.
After years of rebuilding and upgrading (including a conversion to a coal burner), Old #60 looked nothing like the locomotive you possess. She was finally scrapped in 1909.
Bachmann, AHM, Rivarossi, and Pocher locomotives of this type are [sadly] poor runners. The motor is in the tender; with a shaft that drives the driver gear train (not the best design - but probably the only solution in a boiler of this size). Electrical power pickups can be improved and there was a posting on this forum in the past on how to accomplish that (maybe one of the other readers can find it). I know you have your heart set on a mid 19th century locomotive; but the Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0 is a much better choice (it models a locomotive from the very end of the 19th century [1895+] to the early 20th century). These are excellent runners and are of the vintage to pull 36' freight and 50' passenger cars.
Good luck,
Ray
Monks' Island Railway
I might also note that the AHM/Rivarossi models were oversized. Not sure about the Pocher ones. Bachmann's are at least to scale, but still suffer from the tender drive issues. My theory is that these models were designed to a price point, and that depended on using available material, including motors. Today, there are motors that would fit inside the boiler and if Bachmann wanted to re-tool these engines they could do so, but they would probably have to be priced at what the Richmond and Baldwin 4-4-0's cost, not what they sell for today.
I guess it's time to repost the pic of my Bachmann Jupiter 4-4-0 pulling 29 cars up a 2% grade.
(the grade starts about where the green box car with yellow door is. On the lower right. )
These 4-4-0's have traction tires and can pull a lot. I could do a standing start on the grade, too. You can barely see the Jupiter on the right, about to go around the tree.
(http://www.sarget.com/jupiterand29.JPG)
thanks for the history, ray. i will check out the mantua offerings. i dont plan on stressing the loco. it will be used on the massive club layout every now and then, but will mainly be used on the small layout i plan to build. im thinking the layout will be set around a big top or some sort of fair ground, but that will wait until ive decided on rolling stock. while the excursion cars would be ideal, im open to other types. :)
terry, that photo is amazing! i never imagined the jupiter could pull that many.
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee31/BaltoOhioRRFan/CAROL1.jpg)
Here is a pic of the bachmann Carolowood Pacific 4-4-0 with a bachmann style coach,
I had a shot of the bachmann 4-4-0's (Old timers and richmonds) with the roundhouse 34ft coaches but i seem to have mis placed that pic.
if you search on ebay or have the privliage to get to a train show(like me) you might beable to find the bachmann or rivarossi/ahm CP coaches.
Sunhunting - Looks can be deceiving. It's the traction tires.
The cars are all stock Bachmann, Mantua, and Roundhouse old timers.
They aren't weighted and some have plastic wheels.
Properly weighted and with metal wheels, it wouldn't pull as many.
i am not a big fan of traction tyres, or tender drives.
i recently bought a roundhouse 2-8-0 for my other half (she's delighted with it!) and found to my surprize a tiny engine with the guts to outpull anything with traction tyres. this locomotive dates from about 1900, as near as i can tell from photos. it has a can motor in the boiler, enough weight to really get down and lug, and provisions in the tender for a decoder and speaker.
how good of an engine is it? i have 4% grades on my layout, and 18" radius curves. i can pull 11 cars with this locomotive, which means it pulls as well as most diesels i own, and better than a few twice its size.
i know roundhouse specializes in small steamers from the turn of the century. if the rest of them run as well as this one, you have some very good choices out there if you'd like a second locomotive.
Has anyone considered gutting their 4-4-0 and putting a drive unit in a passenger car? I recently did something similar in 0n30 to help a 2-6-0 get a string of varnish up 3-1/2% helix and have been very pleased with the result. I am considering replacing the 2-6-0 with a hand build, unpowered locomotive.
Jim
Quote from: ebtnut on May 31, 2011, 04:55:24 PM
I might also note that the AHM/Rivarossi models were oversized. Not sure about the Pocher ones.
I've had numerous versions of these engines continuously since I was a kid back in the 1970s. If memory serves--and it may not--Pocher built the engines for the old AHM back in the '70s. One thing I am certain of is that the engines I had in the '70s were a bit smaller than the later models sold either as Rivarossi or by IHC; I know this because I held onto my 1970s "Reno" until two years ago, when I started to sell off some of my "holdings," so I was able to do a side-by-side comparison. The 1970s engines may have been closer to scale, but I couldn't say for sure, but they were still larger than the Bachmann "Jupiter" or "119." And, to be completely honest, I've always thought that these engines were better looking than the Bachmann engines. Sorry, Mr. Bach-mann.
As to whether these engines were, or are, poor runners, I feel that both depends on which version of these engines you're talking about, and, of course, personal opinion as to what constitutes poor running. The very late (I guess 1990s) version of these engines (came in a solid red box) are, in my opinion, fine runners, smooth and quiet. Do they look and operate as fine as a Bachmann DCC Richmond 4-4-0? No, they don't, but for a DC old-timer, I find them perfectly fine. I also think the size issue isn't so apparent if you are only running them with other versions of the same model (e.g., the V&T "Reno" and "Genoa" on a two-train layout). The real size issue for me is that in this line of model, the 2-4-0 "J.W. Bowker," in reality a
tiny locomotive, is as big as the eight-wheelers. Now, that's over-sizing! :D
I guess I should add a comment from the vendor side of the table... These little American 4-4-0s (whether they are of Bachmann, Pocher, AHM, IHC or whatever) fly off the table at ridiculous prices! A couple of years ago we were selling off parts of a consignment collection (mostly toy quality). The show started at 0900 and by 1100 hrs. we had sold ALL five of the 4-4-0s (+ a Bowker) for the asking price...no dickering. I advertised all these locomotives as being "untested and running condition unknown". The Bowker actually sold for 20% MORE than the asking price as two chaps began a bidding war against each other. 'Go figure.
Someone mentioned (either in this forum or another) that there were extremely small, very efficient electrical motors on the market today. I'm sure someone could design a prototypically correct mid 19th century American (size, etc.) with proper weight and the motor/gearbox in the engine (the decoder - if any - would reside in the tender). This hasn't been done because there is little retail pressure for items from our railroads' Golden Age...but who knows?
Ray
Quote from: CNE Runner on June 03, 2011, 10:52:04 AM
I guess I should add a comment from the vendor side of the table... These little American 4-4-0s (whether they are of Bachmann, Pocher, AHM, IHC or whatever) fly off the table at ridiculous prices! A couple of years ago we were selling off parts of a consignment collection (mostly toy quality). The show started at 0900 and by 1100 hrs. we had sold ALL five of the 4-4-0s (+ a Bowker) for the asking price...no dickering. I advertised all these locomotives as being "untested and running condition unknown". The Bowker actually sold for 20% MORE than the asking price as two chaps began a bidding war against each other. 'Go figure.
Ray,
If you see this--do you happen to recall the road name on that Bowker? On the one hand, I'm surprised that it sold for more than the eight-wheelers. On the other, AHM sold a couple of them in some pretty odd road names and paint schemes--York & Peach Bottom (blue as the Little Engine That Could) and Beaufort Morehead (green and orange [eeew :D ]).
Strangely enough, the York & Peach Bottom engines often go for quite a bit on eBay.
QuoteSomeone mentioned (either in this forum or another) that there were extremely small, very efficient electrical motors on the market today. I'm sure someone could design a prototypically correct mid 19th century American (size, etc.) with proper weight and the motor/gearbox in the engine (the decoder - if any - would reside in the tender). This hasn't been done because there is little retail pressure for items from our railroads' Golden Age...but who knows?
Makes me wonder. ... I'm guessing the Bachmann "Lafayette" is oversized, but I wonder whether its power source could be used for an 1860s eight-wheeler--or whether such a locomotive would still be oversized--or underpowered to pull a train.
Anybody out there ever have any of the brass imports of the "Jupiter", "U.P. 119," or the V&T "Reno"? I've only seen them in photos, never in person, and I'm wondering if they were correct scale or oversized?
Jeff
Jeff, I asked my wife (the keeper of all things memorable in our family unit) about the road name on that Bowker and all she said was; "I really don't remember; except one prospective buyer said he had never heard of the railroad on the model." We think it was an AHM product...again, that was quite a number of shows ago.
For the record: I have a Bachmann Jupiter 4-4-0 on display (I don't really remember if it still runs). The locomotive has been relettered for the Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut Railroad and renamed/renumbered as "Millbrook #1". This was an early attempt (by me) to run one of the locomotives the real N.D.& C. inherited from the bankrupt Dutchess & Connecticut RR in the 1870s. The prototype Millbrook was actually an 1870s product of the Grant Locomotive Works. Anyway the "Jupiter" resembled the old "Millbrook" so what the hey?
Ray
PS: "Dutchess" (as in Dutchess County, NY) is spelled with a "T".
I've got one of the Pocher Bowkers and three passenger cars lettered for "Kansas City Chicago and St. Louis".
Quote from: CNE Runner on June 03, 2011, 04:07:40 PM
Jeff, I asked my wife (the keeper of all things memorable in our family unit) about the road name on that Bowker and all she said was; "I really don't remember; except one prospective buyer said he had never heard of the railroad on the model." We think it was an AHM product...again, that was quite a number of shows ago.
Thanks, Ray. Appreciate your responding to my nosiness. :)
QuotePS: "Dutchess" (as in Dutchess County, NY) is spelled with a "T".
Yeah, back in the 1600s, when the English took the territory from the Dutch, someone must have thought that a female Dutchman was a Dutchess. :(