Bachmann Online Forum

Discussion Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: ChugaChoo on June 23, 2011, 12:06:54 AM

Title: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: ChugaChoo on June 23, 2011, 12:06:54 AM
Just recently gotten back into ho trains - grandkids are my motivation.  For a 5'X 8' oval, I'm trying to understand which would be a better choice - steel alloy or nickel silver.  I understand the cleaning aspects of one over the other.  But for a small 5' X 8' oval track, would steel alloy conduct electricity as good as nickel silver.  In other words, is the increased performance of nickel silver worth the investment?  Thanks!
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: jward on June 23, 2011, 12:29:28 AM
yes. the slight increase in cost of nickle silver over steel track is well worth the investment. although steel alloy track has been around forever, nickle silver is the standard. just a quick look at the available pieces of track bachmann makes with nickle silver vs those with steel should tell you all you need to know. the available steel  sections are all basic train set track. the sections available in nickle silver are much more varied, and geared towards the more serious model rail, in addition to all the pieces available in steel.

having to clean the track more often may not seem like a big deal to a beginner, but consider the following: do you want a tunnel? if so, you won't want to have to reach inside to clean track, or push stalled locomotives any more than you have to.

also consider this: is there steel track in N scale? the smaller scales like N and Z are notorious for having contact problems. in these scales, clean track is a must, so you won't find steel rail there. HO and larger scales, the contact problems are less severe, so steel is sometimes used.

one last point: do you wish to run dcc, now or in the future? dcc uses signals in the rails, rather than variable voltage, to control train speed and direction. poor contact can lead to loss of control of a train, as the locomotive continues to operate on the last readable command it received, regardless of what commands are being sent. for this reason i would strongly advise against steel if you ever plan to run dcc.
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: NarrowMinded on June 23, 2011, 12:49:36 AM
I agree with everything jward wrote.

I'll just add that I built a Christmas layout using a mix of EZ track, I clean the track every year and apply a very light coating of oil, this layout runs 18hrs a day for about a month, I run my trains very slow (switching speed or a tad faster) all though I don't get many stalls, they almost always happen on the steel sections or right after it.

I would go with nickle silver, as jward said it's worth the extra cost.

NM-Jeff
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on June 23, 2011, 11:16:11 AM
Plus, of course, if you're going to use EZ-track and not ballast it, the gray roadbed of the nickel silver track looks better than the black roadbed of the steel track.
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: Doneldon on June 23, 2011, 05:50:41 PM
Chug-

Nickel-Silver. No contest. The only advantage to steel is that it looks like the real thing when it rusts. And it runs just like the 12 inches to the foot trains. That is, it's great for locomotives which have an internal power source. Not so if they're trying to get electricity out of the track. Just think about the real railroads. They used steel for its strength but they used copper wire to carry signals, telgraph, etc. Plus, the steel track is a lot more work if you don't want your roadbed to look like it's made out of coal. Just my opinion but I'll bet I have lots of company.
                                                                                                            -- D
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: poliss on June 23, 2011, 09:10:37 PM
I'm mildly surprised you can still buy steel track in the USA. Don't think it's been sold over here in the UK for thirty years.
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: jward on June 23, 2011, 10:43:31 PM
sometime around 1980 most of the train set manufacturers went to steel in their train sets. it replaced brass for the most part. it is definitely a low end product. atlas, for one, never marketed steel track in the past 40 years.
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: Joe323 on June 24, 2011, 03:01:01 PM
Actually the steel properly maintained never caused any problems when I buillt my first layout out of Life-Like Power Loc but I required more feeders than nickle silver so when I decided to upgrade to DCC I replaced the steel with NS EZ- track.

On the plus side I sold my original Life Like equiptment Track and all for $50 at a yard sale.
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: jward on June 24, 2011, 08:30:54 PM
having to add extra feeders on dc was the first sign of a problem. it indicated that you were having extra resistance with that track. remember, little problems you don't think about on dc can become major hassles with dcc. a case in point is power routing switches, particularly with metal wheels. with these switches, both switchpoints are the same polarity. if the gap between the poiints and stockrail is narrow enough, metal wheels can bridge the gap causing a momentary short. you don't notice it on dc, but with dcc it trips the circuit breakers.
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: arose on July 17, 2011, 01:07:51 PM
My husband wants to mix the EZ tracks, the gray and black?  Will it create problems?
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: NarrowMinded on July 17, 2011, 08:17:43 PM
It wont harm the train it is more a maintenance/reliability issue

NM-Jeff
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: Jim Banner on July 18, 2011, 01:13:28 AM
Use some conductive oil from time to time and it won't matter what kind of rails you use.  Bachmann makes an excellent conductive oil, E-Z Lube Conductive Contact Lube.  Click the link below for details:
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=1086 (http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=1086)

This stuff isn't cheap but a bottle will last about a lifetime.  When a locomotive starts to hesitate or its headlight starts to flicker, it is time to put a tiny drop of conductive oil on each pickup wheel, including on tender wheels if the locomotive is a steamer with tender pickup.  If a particular spot on the track is causing stalls or flickering lights, put a tiny drop of conductive oil on each rail near the bad spot, preferably on the side where the train will carry the oil on to the bad spot.

As an example of what this stuff can do, last weekend I took my portable 0n30 layout (0-scale trains running on H0-gauge track) to a show.  It had been in storage and the track had not been cleaned since March 2010.  One tiny drop of conductive oil on each of the six drivers and my little 2-6-0 pulled its coaches up hill and down for two days straight with never a stall and never a flicker.  What makes this outstanding is that my track is a mixture of nickel-silver (gray roadbed) E-Z Track, plated steel (black roadbed) E-Z Track, and hand laid brass track.  I cannot say which required more and which required less maintenance - they all required NO maintenance.

As a side note, I only wish my experimental electronics had worked as well.  The layout is basically a single track loop-to-loop setup with an auto reverser on each loop.  When the reverser flips track phase (this is DCC) it also triggers a switch machine operator to reverse the loop's switch.  Every once in a while, this would trip twice, first setting the switch correctly and then setting it back the wrong way.  Instant derailment.  Next attempt will be magnets under the tenders and cabooses with reed switches under the track, a system that has worked flawlessly on our museum layout for almost 20 years.

Jim

p.s.  Did I mention that only a tiny drop of conductive oil is necessary?  With a tiny drop of extremely thin oil, there is virtually no loss of traction.  Slather it on and your train will be slip sliding away in no time.
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: rogertra on July 18, 2011, 02:03:51 AM
If you buy nicklesilver track you will never wish you'd bought steel.

If you buy steel track you'll always wish you'd bought nicklesilver.

Simple as that.
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: cats2287 on July 18, 2011, 03:55:32 PM
I use Nickel Silver. It's great. Use it!!!!!
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: poliss on July 18, 2011, 08:17:29 PM
When a locomotive starts to hesitate or its headlight starts to flicker, it is time to clean the track and wheels.
The air is full of tiny particles of dust that will settle on any liquid that's on the track. What oil does the largest model railway in the world, Miniatur Wunderland, put on their track? None.
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: Jim Banner on July 19, 2011, 01:23:11 AM
Quote from: poliss on July 18, 2011, 08:17:29 PM
What oil does the largest model railway in the world, Miniatur Wunderland, put on their track? None.

If you were to operate your trains as often as they do and in as controlled an atmosphere as they have, you too would have to clean your rails only very, very rarely.

Back in the real world that we live in, we have dust, we have pet dander and pet hair, we have lint from a house full of fabrics and carpets, and if we run our trains an hour a day, we consider that we run them a lot.  If you wish to clean your rails, and presumably all your wheels as well, every time your train starts to hesitate or its headlight starts to flicker, that is fine with me.  Myself, I hate cleaning track and much prefer to let it clean itself.  As I mentioned before, when I see a train start hesitating or its headlight start flickering, I add a tiny bit of oil and let it do the job for me.

I learned this trick from a British modeler who successfully ran his 00 trains (4.0 mm./ft scale on H0-gauge track) outdoors on steel track.  And I have been using it for the half century since.  At first I used Singer Sewing Machine oil, then switched to Wahl Hair Clipper oil and finally started using plastic compatible, very light "conductive" oil in several different brands.  Of late, I have been using Bachmann E-Z Lube Conductive Contact Lube on my small scale layouts.  What these oils have in common is that they are very light and do not oxidize.  Being very light they can form extremely thin films and being non-oxidizing, they do not form varnish on the rails.

As far as dust sticking to the oil, with very thin oil films it is more a matter of a bit of oil sticking to the dust.  This allows it to stick to the train's wheels where it builds up until the dust/oil dirt is thick enough to fall off the wheels.  We refer to the pieces that fall off as "dirt tires" because they look a lot like the treads that recapped truck tires often shed along the side of a highway.  Eventually we still have to clean rails and wheels, usually every four or five years on our H0 museum layout.  By that time, we have typically run 100,000 trains over the track.  That is 10,000+ trains each way each year, and yes, we have a counter that counts them.

I could go on about using oil versus dry rails on outdoor layouts, including several large scale garden layouts been run on DCC track power using aluminum rail.  Even though the large scale experts insist track power of any sort cannot be used with aluminum rail, and particularly not DCC, we have been successfully doing just that for a lot of years.

I hope poliss will be kind enough at this point to share his experiences running track powered trains on dry rails and on very lightly lubricated rails, and how frequently each required cleaning the track compared to the number of trains or the number of hours run and compared to the type of metal used to make the rails.

Jim

   
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: poliss on July 19, 2011, 10:54:07 AM
I have absolutely no problems running my trains on dry rails therefore I see no need to use any liquid/oil etc.

Miniatur Wunderland clean their track every month or so. I asked Erhard Baltrusch, who worked for them, why they didn't use cleaning fluid. He replied. "The reason why we dry-clean is also quite simple:
Any fluid leaves some residue on the tracks and the chance to completely dry the track is minimal. Damp track, however, is a magnet for dirt and dust which in turn is picked up by the engines and that results in higher maintenance of rolling stock. We tried it and had to state that some wagons picked up that much dirt that the wheels didn't turn anymore. Some engines just barely were able to pick up current due to dirty wheel boxes (especially the American ones)."

I also asked if he used track cleaning fluid on his home layout. His reply, "Well, I can only speak for myself but I made very good experiences with the dry method.
I had some of my NTrak-modules stowed away for about 4 years without a cover. Just vacuumed them, cleaned the track with a Roco track-cleaning rubber, vacuumed again, and ran trains. What more can you ask for? "

Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: NarrowMinded on July 19, 2011, 03:43:09 PM
My locomotives run better with oil on the rails and for my auto start and stop sections running them dry is not an option. The Clement where you live may have a effect, i live a mile or so from the ocean and leave the windows open for The breeze, perhaps if i lived in hot dry Arizona with closed windows and filtered air conditioning dry rails may be better.

I guess you need to do what works for you, but remember just because something works for you it doesn't make it the only way to do it.
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: poliss on July 19, 2011, 04:40:24 PM
I live in England. We're surrounded by water. We have a saying. How do you know when it's summer in England? The rain's warmer.
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: Jim Banner on July 19, 2011, 06:18:48 PM
Quote from: poliss on July 19, 2011, 10:54:07 AM

I also asked if he used track cleaning fluid on his home layout. His reply, "Well, I can only speak for myself but I made very good experiences with the dry method.
I had some of my NTrak-modules stowed away for about 4 years without a cover. Just vacuumed them, cleaned the track with a Roco track-cleaning rubber, vacuumed again, and ran trains. What more can you ask for? "


I am glad he (and presumably you) consider that a very good experience.  I consider vacuuming, scrubbing the track, and vacuuming again to be a lot of work compared to putting one tiny drop of conductive oil on each of a locomotive's pickup wheels.  My feelings may be biased somewhat by the fact that all but one of my layouts and the ones I am associated with have tunnels and/or helices which make manual cleaning more difficult.

My advice to ChugaChoo is this:  experiment.  Try a mixture of track - nickel silver, plated steel, bare steel, brass and whatever else you can lay your hands on.  And then try both dry cleaning and very light oiling.  See what works best for you.  With bone dry rails, you will probably find fewest stalls and failures-to-start on nickel silver track.  But with very lightly oiled track, you probably will not find any difference between brands of track or the metals they use.  From my experience, using the little bit of oil will save you from having to clean the track as often and under the right conditions will almost eliminate track cleaning completely.

Jim

P.S. to poliss:
QuoteSome engines just barely were able to pick up current due to dirty wheel boxes (especially the American ones).
I am assuming "wheel boxes" are the same as "journal boxes"  and am trying to remember what H0 locomotives might pick up power from journal boxes since Athearn abandoned the practice forty or fifty years ago.  Perhaps you could fill me in.  In the meantime, thanks for the lively discussion on track cleaning.

J.   
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: poliss on July 19, 2011, 08:28:29 PM
" I am assuming "wheel boxes" are the same as "journal boxes"". Couldn't say exactly. His first language is German, as you would expect as he's from Hamburg, and his English isn't completely perfect. It's a lot better than my German though.  8)
Conductive oil on the track must be a transatlantic thing. It's almost unheard of over on this side of the pond, but you seem to use it a lot over there.
I prefer the late John Allen's track cleaning car myself and the Tsugawa Yokou cleaner for wheels. Our climate is very damp. Bread goes mouldy before it has a chance to go stale.
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: jbrock27 on February 27, 2016, 08:20:26 AM
For anyone reading this: forget steel track, get the nickel silver! :)
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: rogertra on February 27, 2016, 03:22:47 PM
Use nickel silver, you'll never regret it.

Use steel and you'll be kicking yourself for not buying nickel silver.

Cheers

Roger T.

Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: JayDee.4014 on January 06, 2024, 08:47:31 PM
How can you tell the difference between black roadbed steel and black roadbed nickel silver
Title: Re: Heads or tails - Steel alloy or Nickel silver?
Post by: jward on January 07, 2024, 06:56:17 AM
Quote from: JayDee.4014 on January 06, 2024, 08:47:31 PMHow can you tell the difference between black roadbed steel and black roadbed nickel silver


Simple. There is no such thing as black roadbed nickle silver in EZ track. Black is steel, grey is NS.