I had a table in a train show yesterday. During one of my breaks I found a very interesting layout. It was being displayed by Bill's train repair. Foam core construction so it is lite. No wood or framed bench work. The only tools needed is a box opener and glue. To have a look go to rrinabox.com. If you have any questions Bill will glad to answer them. rbklindworth@tds.net. I am sure these are available from many sources.
RAM-
Yes, it's possible to build a railroad with nothing beefier than foam core but I'll bet it isn't very large unless he put serious work into designing foam core beams and corregated, laminated panels. It's sort of like supporting a book on a folded dollar bill. You can get considerable strength from simple and even weak materials if you compensate with good engineering. I'm not so sure it's the answer for most of us.
-- D
In his 3rd (and last) book, Carl Arendt's Small Layout Scrapbook, Carl goes through a step-by-step process of constructing a 39"x 8" [100x21 cm] On30 layout using foamcore as a baseboard. Carl did use 1.5" lattice strips for side rail bracing; but that was because he used the layout during presentations around the country. "For normal home use, you can use the much-lighter foamcore rails." Carl's book is still available (although the first 2 editions are not) by going to his website http://carendt.us/ (http://carendt.us/) and clicking on the picture at the lower righthand corner.
I hope you find this interesting. Carl is greatly missed by this modeler.
Ray
3 layers of 2" foam glued together is quite beefy
Here it's sitting on 6 milk crates. No beams or corregated panels.
(http://www.sarget.com/XMT001K1.jpg)
We use 2' x 4' pieces of 1-1/2" Styrofoam edged with 1-1/2" wide strips of 3/4" fir plywood as the tables for our G-scale portable layout. It has been shipped around Western Canada and assembled/disassembled many times without damage. The plywood edge stands up well to excited children chewing on it and careless adults bumping into it. Weight is a bit more than just foam core but a small fraction of the weight sitting on it and travelling over it. The light weight frame also gives something to attach the legs to (we use 1/2" EMT.) Our layout in its present form consists of 50 such tables.
Ray,
Thanks for the link. I found it very interesting, enough so that I just ordered the book.
Jim
Jim - I am sure you will enjoy Carl's book as much as I have. Without the inspiration of Carl, and the many other mini/micro layout contributors, I would not have a layout today. That doggone MinitrainS Plymouth set still calls to me: "Raaay...let's build yet another display layout..."
Regards,
Ray
RAM-
I wonder if we have a communication problem here. When you say "foam core," do you mean 3/16" thick foam material with cardboard on both sides or foam insulation board? The former is foam core, the latter is what it's called: foam insulation board, possibly with a trade name attached. I surely agree that a layout made with foam insulation would be quite strong, especially when, as in Terry's photo, a small layout is supported by six legs, each of which has more than a square foot of contact. Those large legs would minimize the PSI pushing up against the layout and the six legs would mean there is probably no place on the layout more than 18" from a leg. And let's face it, the table in the photo is supporting 12-15 pounds at most. That's not much.
You could absolutely not do that with foam core without building beams and trusses. Even allowing for the stiffening benefits of the cardboard, a three-ply panel would be only 3/4" thick, a far cry from what appears to be six full inches of laminated insulation board. Jim's 3/4" plywood edges would provide a good deal of stiffening to his G-scale layout. But I wonder of there are any cross pieces or mini shelves on which the insulation board sits. And, Jim tell me if I'm all wet, but I'll bet the legs attach to the wooden frame, not bare, unprotected insulation board.
So I'll stand by my prior post. Build a layout from foam core and you'll either have to keep it small or do some engineering. Building with insulation board is a whole different proposition.
-- D
Quote from: Doneldon on June 28, 2011, 11:01:31 PM
Jim's 3/4" plywood edges would provide a good deal of stiffening to his G-scale layout. But I wonder of there are any cross pieces or mini shelves on which the insulation board sits. And, Jim tell me if I'm all wet, but I'll bet the legs attach to the wooden frame, not bare, unprotected insulation board.
-- D
The bottoms of our tables are covered with 1/8" hardboard as protection in shipping - each pair of tables are shipped in a carrier with the finished sides in and the bottoms out. But the Styrofoam board is edge glued to the plywood and does not rely on the bottom cover for support. the legs are installed in 3" x 3" x 1-1/2" blocks built into each corner. These blocks reinforce the corners and provide mounting for the legs. We have managed to drop a table on its corner a few times but have never had a corner joint crack with these corner blocks glued and nailled in place. The end pieces of plywood are drilled for 1/2" diameter alignment pins which keep the tables aligned both vertically and horizontally when set up. There are no track joiners. I built a set of tables for an H0 club a few years ago with a slightly different alignment system which guaranteed alignment within .01". Again, no rail joiners meant fast set up and take down.
Jim
I looked at the website again. It is form core. When I first looked, I thought it was foam.
the thing about this company is that they are not selling the layout per se. they are selling full size plans. you supply the foam core. as such, i'd bet you could substitute solid foam, or plywood, or whatever other material you feel comfortable with.
the only thing i find disturbing is that they claim to have several track plans included in the instructions, but they don't post thumbnails so you can see if they interest you before you buy......
interesting concept though.
This is the email address of the man that was showing the layout. Bill's train repair rbklindworth@tds.net
Dear Ray and Jim,
Indeed very interesting. Last year I made a few tunnels for my G scale under the Xmas tree. Foam boxes cut and glued, relief with pieces of irregular foam glued all over, then covered with paper towels soaked in plaster. Was a little too heavy and the plaster flaked. Someone here, perhaps Jim, suggested dry wall plaster. Will try that next ! The point is the foam was quite strong and fast to work. I will get Carl's book and give a small layout a try. Great idea !
A good 4th of July to our friends here and across the border !
Best Wishes,
Jack
Hey Jack - I am glad you are planning on purchasing Carl Arendt's book...you won't be disappointed. Also spend some time (an hour or more) perusing Carl's website - especially the 'Scrapbook' section. Another place, on the website, that is chock full of information is the layout design section...the original plan for my Monks' Island Railway came from the Trackmobile section.
Currently, I am nearing completion of the Pine Ridge II layout - and am about to start construction of my 'edition' of the Box Street Yard III (ala Jack Trollope). I am becoming convinced that building micro/mini layouts is a virus; because once one contracts this bug...
Regards,
Ray
Jack-
Try using a regular cardboard box for your base and add broken foam and plaster cloth to that. The box will give you the strength you need. I've built several of these for various people, everything from Thomas the Tank Engine non-electric layouts to and including large scale garden layouts. (yes, the outside layouts have to be brought in during inclement weather.)
-- D
Carl's website, I truly miss the updates !!!! That's all I make are micro's/ minis !! switching thats what its all about for me!!
'K' - I cannot agree with you more. One of my greatest fears is that those interested in micro/mini layouts will lose interest if the website isn't updated on a regular basis. My suspicions are that the current webmasters do not possess the time/commitment/abilities to truly service this wonderful resource. I suspect the website will eventually be discontinued. My advice, to those interested, is to save those portions of the current website to their hard drives before they are 'lost in cyberspace'.
Ray
i think there'll always be interest in the small layouts as long as there are people like me who "have" to have a layout regardless of how much room they have.
Can someone take over Carl's site so it doesn't disappear?
Terry - I echo your lament a thousand times over. Eventually the website will be lost - to those of us who would not have a layout without the inspiration/guidance Carl (et. al.) provided; and all those 'armchair model railroaders' who would enter the hobby on a much more active level. I only wish I possessed the computer skills needed to continue the cause.
Another, positive, facet of small switching layouts is the incredible amount of operation that can be 'squeezed' into a small package. Some of my switching scenarios can take as long as 2 hours (real time) to complete...not bad for a layout that measures approximately 10'x 15" at its widest. Unless you have the resources, and finances, to construct one of the room-filling behemoths; mini layouts can satisfy the model railroading 'urge'. [I should mentione that the Monks' Island Railway is really two mini layouts joined as one...each can be operated as separate switching problems.]
If anyone is interested, I will gladly share my method of car selection and switch list generation. Things can get hectic when #4 is still in Sweet Haven...and the ferry is due in an hour (because of track conditions and distance it takes our intrepid road crew an hour to make the 18-mile journey).
Cheers,
Ray
PS: I will gladly contribute a couple of articles for a 'new' Carl Arendt website as will many other fans around the world.
one thing i've found, having built and run a copy of john allen's timesaver, is that small switching layouts can be as simple to run or as complex as you care to make them. take the timesaver. it was designed for the use of only 5 cars and a locomotive. alot of people have a hard time figuring the moves with 5 cars. if that's too tough for you, you can cut it down to 4 cars and things get easier. me, once i mastered the 5 car operating plan i found it too easy, and added a sixth car to the mix. the difficulty in making the required manoevers increased dramatically with that one simple act.....
Quote from: CNE Runner on July 13, 2011, 10:36:07 AM
I only wish I possessed the computer skills needed to continue the cause.
Ray-
You can easily learn such skills.
-- D
I llke hearing about switching operations!!
'K' - Since you (and probably others) enjoy switching operations, I will start another thread regarding that topic. My hope is that we can have a 'pooling' of ideas on this extensive and interesting subject. To start you off though I recommend a visit to the Shunting (switching) Puzzle website at
http://www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzles/ (http://www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzles/)
This website was invaluable to me when I was formulating my own operations procedure.
Enjoy,
Ray
Dear Ray,
Howdy. From Carl's book I am hoping to get some micro ideas to see if I can modify them to use for a temporary living room floor layout for my kids with G or O gauge. Right now I do not want to make a permanent small scale layout, preferring the larger stuff, but not having a space to dedicate, you know ? I do have several boxes of custom painted HO rolling stock and engines, Erie and Lacawanna with which I do not know what to do.... Perhaps a small HO layout would be in order.
Dear Ray,
You are both nice guys. Hope your wives appreciate you ! My first foray into foam tunnels worked well, except for the flaking of the plaster. Over the years I have accumulated an array of foam boxes, small to large. I had cut off the ends of some smaller boxes and glued them together for the tunnel frame. These boxes were large enough to let a small G scale engine pass. The ends I cut out in a rough arch design to simulate stone. Then to that I glued irregular foam pieces over which I applied plaster soaked paper towels. Worked well. Strong and light, looked good. I am content to use this instead of cardboard due to water resisence. The problem was flaking plaster. I even designed a tunnel for the corner of the room with a 45 degree split to keep it in 2 pieces to take down after Xmas. Seems to have worked well.
Best Wishes,
Jack
Jack - In addition to Carl's last book I strongly urge that you thoroughly peruse the website. In addition to the Scrapbook articles, there is a section of track plans that may fit your situation.
We spent last winter in Arizona. Around the holidays we took a garden layout tour in the Chandler area and one 'layout' was of particular interest (all of the layouts we saw were outstanding). This layout was John Allen's Timesaver in G-scale! The owner of the layout invited several of us to 'solve the puzzle'. G-scale trains - mixed in with HUGE buildings (well...huge to us HO folks) and scenery made for an intense experience for this old runner.
Good luck with your layout and keep us informed of its progress,
Ray
If you don't have enough room for a layout, go to amazon.com. Type in "Model Railroading In Small Spaces Second Edition" I got my copy for 4.65 and it's great!
When I saw this thread the first thing I thought of was...I wonder if 2" foam board covered with fiberglass would work and how much it would weigh?
Kinda like a surfboard only bigger! The price of fiberglass and resin might deter most folks, but it would be an alternative ;)
Dear Ray,
I had seen Carl's website a few years ago, but had forgotten it. Thanks for the advice. What I would like to do is to put Bachmann and Aristo track on semi-permanent foam slabs painted to look like ballast and construct a twisted line of track in my living room that the kids can take apart or re-route easily, run under or over stuff, run with TE and battery power. Will let you know how it turns out.
'J' - It sounds like you have a plan in mind...great! How about constructing each piece of layout as a module - such that each track lines up with a mate on another 'module'? This would allow you to swap modules in numerous ways (ala N-Trak modules)...Model Railroader's Beer Line was constructed in this manner.
Regarding track: I exclusively use Peco Code 75 track (which is a little delicate and pricey for a 'youngins' layout). Have you thought about using Bachmann's EZ-track (or Kato, Atlas, etc)? We did a train show this past spring at which I got into a conversation with an attendee regarding track. He told me he used EZ-track and could make it look as good as ballasted 'regular' track. On a whim, he went home and came back with 3 pieces of track: one was in the original condition (yuck), one had been painted and weathered (whoa...pretty nice), the last was painted, weathered, and had some stone ballast glued on (amazing). Just food for thought.
Regards,
Ray
CNE-
Is your Peco track really more expensive than EZ Track? I haven't explicitly checked, but I would expect Peco, even with roadbed and ballast, would be more than EZ Track.
I can believe that EZ Track looks great if it has added ballast and weathering, especially if one is trying to represent main line track. And it wouldn't need much ballast since the whole contour is already there. One question, though: Would dilute white glue or wood glue stick tightly to the plastic roadbed?
-- D
Quote from: Doneldon on July 22, 2011, 06:21:26 PM
CNE-
I can believe that EZ Track looks great if it has added ballast and weathering, especially if one is trying to represent main line track. And it wouldn't need much ballast since the whole contour is already there. One question, though: Would dilute white glue or wood glue stick tightly to the plastic roadbed? -- D
As I wrote on the "HO" forum, no matter what you do to EZ Track and it's competitors, it will still look like EZ Track. The most realistic track on the market is Micro Engineering's code 50, 70 and 80 weathered track. None of the set track brands, by any manufacturer, come close. If you want scale and realistic looking track you need curves of around 30 inch radius, a quality brand code 80 or less flex-track or hand-laid track, number six or number five in a pinch switches and scale ballast.
I realise that not all of us have space for 30" curves so in that case, we do the best we can and live with the results.
The track mounted on foam sounds like a neat idea.
Dear Ray,
I should have stated the moveable layout will be G scale, since I have a WF set and an Aristo Sesame St. set with a 2-4-2 Rogers and slope backed tender. Both run very well. In my small abode, following the DEE-vorce there is limited space. When we shared the Border Collie, the 3 chillen and dog would romp, and the stuff would fly ! I usually get bored with a permanent layout, thus want to do something that I can modify at whim. The HO modules from various manufactures intrigue me, but do not have that much storage.
Best Wishes, Jack
Hi All - I have to take the Road Superintendant shopping for food; but I thought I'd write now whilst I had the chance. Don - I did a comparison between a Peco #4 Insulfrog turnout vs a Bachmann remote turnout of the same number. The Peco turnout is $22.49 MSRP and the Bachmann #4 remote is $37.00 MSRP. While the Bachmann unit does appear to be a lot more expensive one must keep in mind that the Peco unit still requires some sort of actuating device (for remote operation - making it similar to the EZ-track unit) as well as a cork (or whatever) roadbed pad. As they 'come out of the box' there is a difference of $14.51. I doubt one can purchase both roadbed and switch motor (@ MSRP) for this amount...at best they would probably come in about the same.
Jack - Holy Macaroni...a G-scale indoor layout would be something to behold! I have seen small, switching G-scale layouts that are quite small. Carl Arendt has a very small G-scale layout on p. 22 of his book. The problem with these layouts is that they will not hold the interest of your young runners...too much thinking and too little 'action'.
Smaller modules could be stored behind/under furniture...or is that where you keep your other 'stuff'? [Can you tell that I was single in the distant past?] Again, good luck with the project.
Ray
CNE-
Yes, turnouts are likely to be close in price when you figure the whole installed package. Turnouts with remotes attached might be a bit cheaper than turnouts plus third-party switch machines, but not by much. There seem to be quite a few posts about the EZ Track turnout problems on these boards. I haven't experienced any myself other than one issue which was clearly due to my installation, not a manufacturing defect, so I can't fault EZ Track turnouts from personal experience. Too, I only have about 15 which really isn't enough to get an accurate impression on reliability.
The biggest cost savings will be on straight and curved sectional track versus flex track and cork or other roadbed. Flex track enables effortless easements and custom curves which are big advantages from my point of view. You can do easements with EZ Track but only by using a short section of flex track and separate roadbed which is enough more of a hassle that I expect few people actually do it. And custom curves are out with EZ Track unless, again, one puts in a flex track section.
-- D
I hear you Don. The only place I use EZ-track is on my workbench as a locomotive cleaning/testing station. After being in the hobby for over 50 years (of course I like to lie about my age), I have found Peco track components to be of the highest quality of those products I have used. I also understand Micro Engineering products are of high quality as well...'never have used their products.
Conversely, set track (such as EZ-track et. al.) definitely have their place. In days of yore we all used Atlas Snap Track (brass of course) because most of us didn't have the desire, or ability, to hand lay our track (I can only imagine how the average 12-year old would be at hand laying track). Products, like EZ-track are great for younger railroaders or temporary layouts (such as holiday pikes). You are right...it is hard to beat flex track (more so now that it no longer has fiber tires that are stapled to brass rail)...but products, such as EZ-track, have their place and uses as well.
Ray
CNE-
I think we are of similar vintage. I had Lionel trains as a boy and in 1959 my brother and I switched to HO where I've stayed other than a foray into large scale which supplemented HO but did not supplant it. (I've been wanting to use that phrasology for a long time.)
I agree with your assessment of set tracks. But I find EZ Track to be great for kids; in fact, I built a layout for my youngest grandson with EZ Track. For my own use I have Code 83 Shinohara. I'm looking to add some HOn3 but haven't decided yet what track to use. I'd like to have some dual-gauge track but I don't want to use Code 83 for the narrow gauge and I don't want to use Code 70 for the HO. So I'm trying to figure that out.
-- D
Last week, I gave a talk on building model railroads at a kids' summer camp. I took along a 3-1/2' x 6' piece of of Styrofoam "beadboard" that had been painted green, an arm load of E-Z Track, a couple of trains, and a mess of accessories such as buildings, trees, people, animals, etc. I mostly chatted with the kids, 9 and 10 year old boys and girls, while they built the railroad. We talked about what we needed on our model railroad and about the significance of railroading in the real world. Because we did this in a museum, it seemed appropriate to have a late 1800's theme - steam locomotives, false front buildings, etc. - and even the kids who have trains at home learned a new concept - modeling a particular time. We all had a lot fun and ended up with a pretty decent looking layout considering 15 kids will come up with 15 ways to do things.
The 2" beadboard was plenty strong and while green paint didn't make a finished landscape, it did allow us to move the track around quite easily. The E-Z Track was a natural - the kids were able to put it together themselves and it stayed together while we all took turns running trains. The track had been "broken in" by being assembled and taken apart a number of times before. In its other life, it is my test and break-in track that I set up as needed. Whenever I get help setting up a track, whether from kids or adults, I like to run a Kleenex around the track before we run a train, ostensibly to remove the dust, but it is also a chance to check that all the rails are inside rail joiners and none are sitting on top of them. Bottom line, I could see building a layout with beadboard and E-Z Track and only when I am happy with how it can be operated, gluing down the E-Z Track and start carving the foam.
Jim
On page 3 of the photo gallery .On that page there is "the bachmann builds a layout " and is built out of styrofoam . Good step by step pictures after seeing this I wish I would have went that route . Just looked alot easier and user friendly . Over my few years coming to this forum I've seen it talked about alot but not this indepth . When I lived back up north you could find 2" x4ftx8ft sheets of styrofoam they used on basement walls but here in the south 1/2" thick 4x8 at you local building supply . Or go to your craft store and select sizes but nothing that big ....
mf5117
I live in the south also and had a hard time finding 2". I finally found it thru a local a/c supply house that a friend told me about. The only thing home depot and local hardware stores carry is 1/2".
Jerry
Here in northeastern Alabama, I have had no problem finding 1" Styrofoam in our local Lowe's store. Unfortunately the 2" variety is not shipped to our area - unless it is a special order...and in quantity. Using the proper adhesive, one can easily glue two, 1-inch pieces together.
Another stable underlayment, for a train layout, is Johns-Mansville black board (similar to homosote and used as sheathing under siding). To use this product, turn it such that the labeled, black side is down. The only problem I have found is that it will 'shed' its edges unless protected by some sort of fascia. BTW: This product is also easily available from Lowe's.
Ray
I knew there had to be an advantage to living in the frozen north and you gentlemen have just pointed one out. Up here, every lumber yard and home improvement store has 2" Styrofoam, both the extruded and the bead board. The ones specializing in insulation can usually supply 3" and 4" as well.
Jim
I think I'll stick to the lovely weather in Southern California, and deal with the problem finding foam insulation 8)
I drive by LAX (Los Angeles International Airport) where a new terminal is under construction they must have about 1/2 a million Sq. ft. of 2" thick blue insulation stacked in a staging area. I'm waiting to see someone there so I can ask for scraps
NM-Jeff