Hello all, I am brand new to trains, and I thought this would be a great place to attempt to learn some basic information, esp since I took a particular liking to Bachmann train sets....
I went to an estate sell back on the 21st of October. A Dr. Rueff of 40 years of vintage toy collecting past on a couple of years back, and his wife most recently. Anyhow, the sisters an brothers decided to sell the home and all its contents, and I had the good fortune to get to go in the basement an scope out everything a month before the sell, as one of the sons works with one of my life long friends. This basement is basically two thousand square feet of amazing vintage toys, that took forty years to accumulate, including many trains, and sets....
I normally collect many different vintage toys from my childhood, via mostly stuff like Star wars and G.I.Joe, being born in 1974. I buy it, hold an collect for a while, then pass on to someone else, an try to at least break even while doing so, if not make a little something, mostly on eBay....
Anyhow, to cut too the chase, I grabbed a Lionel 1977 Cargo King trains n truckin set, still mint in box, just missing two buildings. It had been shrink wrapped by the meticulous doctor, and I am going by his note he left on it in upper corner. I also grabbed a Bachmann Old Tyme village express set from 1995, still mint in box, and a 85 piece King of the rail series Santa Fe Tornado set, which I can't find any information on, it appears rare....
I have them all listed on eBay, as they are all sealed, but I opened a can of buying worms, which often happens with me, and I have since added a nice blue Royal Scot complete mint Bachmann set, which seems to have been manufactured between 1985-89. A great price I got it for at 76 bucks seems like, being mint in box and only test run. I have also added what appears to be a rare set from 1976, via the old west Train robbery set. It is very unique, with a trap door and robbers, gold, etc....
These sets are both close to mint according to dealer, and I plan to have a little fun an set them up an run a bit....
I also have a couple more Lionel trains, via a 1980 O gauge Union Pacific Berkshire, real close to mint an nice box. And finally a 1966 Lionel basic set, which turned out real nice dsiplay train, box solid with heavy cover wear, but insert part real solid, with all the track an transformer and wires. Alas, I could not get it to run, even though I could hear the transformer hummmm when I plugged it in....
Any help or suggestions much appreciated. I had a basic Lionel set as a child, a gift from a late grand father, and this new discovery has been a bit of a trip back in time of sorts, via long lost memories.....
Lastly, I have taken a big interest in these vintage Bachmann sets, many of which I have on the ol wishlist. The Orient Express, The Flying Scot, and the M.A.S.H. train to name a few. Sorry for the rant, hope everyone has a great Halloween!!!!
from what i have heard is that all earlier bachmann trainsets where quiet nice at the time but every 5yrs it seams like they update everything and many of their older things like the 4-4-0s and the f series diesels are not worth as much as you think because they were heavily mass produced and at flea markets and swap meets you can find whole boxes full of these listed at $10 each because they still make them in much better running condition. most of the time any plastic model train that was built between 1960 and 1990 lose price every year. if you have the money and enjoy trains enough you might try collecting Lionel tin plate or brass trains because they are collectors items and some model railroaders use them with upgrades some of the most collectible i think is pacific fast mail or if you don't have the money but want to collect something that people would buy i would suggest mdc/roundhouse, ahm, and pocher. the roundhouse shays are especially popular because people often but them to kitbash them. and also welcome to the hobby if you want the best information i would suggest going to a trainshow or swap meet
Thanks Mr. Shay, that is some great info....
I can see major difference in detail, design, etc., when you compare a small plastic HO, beside the O gauge Lionel Union pacific Berkshire. For example, the Berk is made of die-cast, has much detail, rail, working lights, smoke, magnetic traction, etc....
Too address some of your points, I find it odd that the newer items, is worth more, an the older stuff, looses value as it ages, which is opposite as most collectibles. Obviously, being made of plastic, I figure these sets loose value fast, esp once the seal is broken....
I am gonna do some searches on the items you suggest.....
Could someone help me understand scale better, like what does HO stand for, or N, O, etc.? I am sure that is areal dumb question, but one has to start somewhere....
Finally, I don't mind if the vintage sets are not worth that much because if I can get them for 50 to 75, an perhaps sell at 100 to 150, or even break even worst case after I have displayed a bit, or slightly ran for a bit of fun, well that is all fine. I make a little extra here an there, but certainly not getting rich, an do it more for the collector in me than anything....
I would really love to find a train swap meet, where I could find these sets for 10 or 20 bucks a set, that would be great. I live about 30 minutes west of University of T.N. campus in a small town called Lenoir city. So if anyone lives in my neck of the woods, and knows of anything like that in my area, much appreciated once again....
The point is that Bachmann trains were never meant to be "collectibles." They were train sets intended for a particular market. There are not hundreds of Bachmann collectors with barns filled with Bachmann trains.
There are Tyco collectors who collect Tyco trains because they are reminded of their childhood. Tyco trains were made for decades and there are literally tens of thousands out there. Tyco collectors collect for the fun of it, not to make any money.
If you want to collect trains try Lionel or American Flyer. Lionel made after the war up until they stopped production in the sixties are the ones to look for. Another big collectible item is the brass locomotive. Prices have dropped on a lot of these due to the economy and the fact that many newer models have been made in plastic and are often superior to the brass version.
I suppose you could start collecting Bachmann sets. Just remember that at the end of the day you'll not get much of a return. They are worth whatever someone is willing to pay for them.
More great information, thanks Woody!
I do love the post war Lionel's and I also like the American Flyers. What a great name American Flyer is, reminds me so much of an old America that has long since faded away. I think the red wagons they made, is what makes that name such a great piece of historical Americana. I am a big fan of the Royal blue American flyer train, as one sold the other day on eBay, at just over 400, and it had all the cars, what a gem!
Finally, I like your points about the brass trains an economy. It sure seems like some of these sets are cheaper then what they would be in better times. Heck, I worry so much over the economy, I stash away gold an silver coins as well, but the collector in me keeps me buying items like vintage trains....
No different then buying land right now when it is dirt cheap, hoping for better days. I think one could look at many of these great trains in the same light, obviously on a much smaller scale. Plus, an engine an coal car here, an a train set there, they add up fast....
Finally, in time I think all things have the potential to become collectible, just not when there is 100,000's of that particular item easily accessed in swap meets or eBay. Time is the great equalizer, I just may be dust again myself before that kicks in, lol. Take care all, an thanks so much for the info....
I will also add, that many of those older Bachmann sets I mentioned, like the Royal or Flying Scot, the Orient Express, Royal castle (company Life Like), the M.A.S.H., and old train robbery sets, all seem to be very hard to find on eBay, which made me think the numbers were low. And the print historical inserts on the history of each train sets, makes them appear collectible to me at least.....
Now then, just because there is only one example for sale at any one given time on eBay, certainly is not enough to say that item is ULTRA RARE. But hey, less competition on any item if you are the only one selling it, gives you an advantage IM amatuer O, over the guy selling a train where I can find 35 just like it from other dealers....
one point that i don't think anybody has touched upon here, that drasticly affects the value of the older trains is what the company's direction was at the time. even by the standards of the 1970s and especially the 1980s, train sets like those made by bachmann, ahm and tyco were low quality. as one who grew up in the 1970s, i can tell you that most stores stocked train sets around the christmas season, flooding the market. after christmas, the train sets and cars were marked down to rock bottom. with all the modifications that had to be done to get those cars to perform up to the standards of, say, an athearn car the after christmas sales were the only times it made sense to purchase them. and most of the diesel locomotives ran so poorly that it wasn't even worth the time to work on them.
this started to change in the late 1980s with the bachmann spectrum line. later the freight and passenger cars were also upgraded too. these are the silver series cars, and even your most basic bachmann train set equipment to-day runs great without modification. in fact, it probably runs better then the best stuff from the 1970s. for this reason, alot of us stay away from the older train sets.
so.....if the collectors are interested in lionel or brass, and the serious model railroaders aren't interested either. what market is there for the older sets other than as a cheap way into the hobby, something to get you started that will eventually be replaced by much better equipment. or as display items on a shelf......
BSC74
Here is a set I just purchased off of e-bay. To me it's priceless, to others not as I picked it up from the seller for $35. Bachmann produced this set as a safety award for the Pittsburgh Division of NS.
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l499/jeborne/DSCN0176.jpg)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l499/jeborne/DSCN0177.jpg)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l499/jeborne/DSCN0178.jpg)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l499/jeborne/DSCN0179.jpg)
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Jerry
Hi,
Welcome to the wonderful world of Trains, It seem you may be affected by DTB Syndrome, that's "DUSTY TRAIN BOX" this syndrome stems from the very few cases where someone has found a really collectable train in the attic or basement, some how this has translated in to somewhat of an urban legend that just about every model train that has not seen the light of day in a couple years is some how worth it's weight in gold.
Please do some research before you spend your hard earned money, I have had countless non-train friends rush to my house straight from a garage sale with what they thought was their next house payment, only to be disappointed and even think I was lying so I could buy it from them for cheap.
Most old trains are like most old toys "Cool" to those who played with them as a kid but not worth that much because theres not much of a market for them, unless you find the right, pigeon err... I mean Person...
NM-Jeff
having lived along the pittsburgh division, and worked it for 3 1/2 years, i wouldn't mind having one of those sets. i have an ns safety award, a pocket knife that if you carried while on duty would violate ns's weapons policy. (wonder what genius thought that one up?) but i was unaware of the train set.
i find the choice of caboose interesting, bachmann makes a caboose that is similar to ones run by ns predecessors wabash and n&w, which surely lasted into the ns era, and the recent northeastern style caboose was also used by n&w into the ns era. as far as i know, ns never used the style of caboose in the set.
overall, though, they did a nice job. 4271 is true to the prototype except for the pittsburgh division logo, and the real one looks every bit as good as the model.
jward
I've seen sets for athletic sports and find it great if you love sports ( which I do).
Finding one that actually was an award for a RR division I thought was unique and special. If the seller actually worked for NS I just wondered why would one give it up?
All the boxes have their own product# and Pitt. Div. stamped on the boxes by Bachmann. The engine is not marked DCC (have not checked yet) but if it's not it will be as I don't know if you recall the Sante Fe that I was going to repaint well that never happened yet so I believe I will swap shell's. Maybe make a sound dummy with the other.
The set is a one of kind to me and will be treasured. Even though it probably has no big dollar value except to me.
Jerry
Jerry
Well guys, this is gonna be a great place for information, thanks all for chiming in.
DTB sydrome ,that is great you all have a term for it, and I fit right into that cat for sure, lol. I would have thought for sure that Old Tyme train set would be worth a 100 at least, and I paid 25 bucks for it. Crazy how much I have learned just in a couple weeks since that estate sell. There is another sell on the 4th, as only 20% of this guys collection could be priced an fit upstairs last sale. I will be much more knowledgeable what trains to go after this time....
I did have someone just ask me if I accept CC's and they want to know if I can ship the Old Tyme Bachmann set from 1995 asap. I have it listed at 90 bucks, an free shipping. After eBay, shipping, paypal, I will be lucky to make anything at all, but very happy to have brought it back into circulation, so as someone who wants it can give it a good home....
I love that new Pitt train as well Jerry, nice score, great price! Another fine example, of one mans junk is another man's treasure. Even though that set is far from junk, but you know what I mean, as as you said it is priceless to you, and that is all that matters in the end....
Do some research on Z-scale marklin Locomotives, I find them at estate sales on occasion, I also built a small layout for a guy that bought a box full of these tiny $400 locomotive for $10.00 again a rare instance, these little loco's are pricey to begin with and in good condition have good resale value.
I'll say again This is a rare instance and the reason it was such a find is because they are expensive.
NM-Jeff
What ever you do have fun doing it!
Lionel O gauge is nice. Lionel O27 is smaller and cheaper than O gauge, and stay away from Lionel HO. OK, some of Lionel HO is nice, but you better know what you are getting.
I look for good deals on these Bachmann sets, and I also see the auctions end around 60 total like a Golden spike set with 100 pieces which just ended at 60 bucks. The older vintage set unopened and it went for 40, an 20 more freight. So I figure if that person wanted to put it up with a buy it now, I saw a similar with 125 pieces listed at 150 (15 more for shipping) and it was the only other one I could fine, of the older version anyway. Try an double their money, good luck with that eh....
So I had already confirmed that they were not worth that much but smalls add up. Someone may toss out $150, maybe $200 for something that rare around Christmas perhaps. So just like the guys that bid on those storage lockers, they set limits. If they see $1000 dollars worth of tools, $500 is their top bid....
Same with me, as 75 or so is about my max to spend on the older Bachmann sets in question that I think may bring 125 to 150. Unless it is again really rare and unique, in which case I may go as high as $100 to $125. I figure in most cases I can always at least break even if I set limits an stay under them....
Like one of these rare M.A.S.H. sets I am after. Starting bid $160, and $27.50 more for freight. Too high for me, but if it ends with no bids, I may toss him an offer, less then what his starting bid is. That is how I often get my items, asking after no one else bids, and offer a lower, but fair price....
BCS-
Welcome to model railroading and this Board. I know I can speak for every one in hoping that you'll feel right at home here, the disappointing news about the value of older trains notwithstanding.
The truth is that there are very, very few old model trains which are worth anything. I cannot overstate that principle. Old Bachmann sets commonly trade at train shows for $20-25, sometimes less, sometimes a little more if the condition is outstanding. And that's the key: condition.
I had an old, barely post-war Lionel steam engine. The lights and smoke worked just fine and it pulled well, but it had been played with alot, including trying to recreate the near miss scenes from Lionel Christmas commercials from TV. Well, we sold that train in 1959 and I later heard how valuable such trains were. It turned out mine had a catalog value of $600 by itself but we had sold the loco and all the rest of our Lionel for $50. For a while I felt like I had been a fool. Then I found out that the $600 was for my loco and tender brand new in a brand new box with no shelf wear whatsoever. Later, I found my loco at a train show in similar played with condition and with operating headlight and smoke for $15. The Moral of the Story? Condition is everything even on the old trains which actually have some potential collector value. Things like train sets, which never had high-quality components to begin with, sell for almost nothing now, even when they are in mint condition. Other than the rare person who wants the train set s/he remembers from childhood, there is a very limited market for these things.
People don't collect junk; they collect things which were valuable, desirable, utile and of high quality when they were new, probably rare now, or with historical significance. Train sets are neither rare, high quality, useful nor historically significant. They were mass market, marginal quality, cheap toys so they had (and today's sets, too, have) essentially no value. Ergo, they have no significant value today.
I hate to beat you over the head about this but your posts sound to me like you haven't really believed what others have written. You will not run into a very unusual set with some special value which you'll be able to make a mint on because NO such set exists. True, Marklin and one or two other European manufacturers sold expensive trains which are still expensive today but they prove my point. They are the rare exceptions which had value in the first place. And even these won't make you much money because you are highly unlikely to find one rusting in a basement at an estate sale. Estate sales are not virginal when you see them, you know. The lister has already perused the merchandise and taken the truly valuable items out for auction where they will obtain prices commensurate with their true value. House and estate sale merchandise is essentially leftovers and things to large or awkward to remove to a better sales venue.
Also, don't think for a minute that a $20 house sale set will sell for $150 on ebay. Are there $150 train sets on ebay? Sure, sometimes lots of them. When you check in completed listings, however, you'll find that they didn't sell for much more then the yard sale price if they sold at all. And, at least with a yard sale, there's no packing and shipping to pay for. I can tell you with absolute certainty that you cannot pay $75 for a $25 train set at an estate sale and then peddle it on ebay for $150.00. Oh, you might hit a freak deal where someone just has to have a train set like the one his/her dad bought the weekend before he died, but you'll have to put 200 sets on ebay to do so and you'll lose most of the $75 (or, God knows, $100-125!!!) on the other 199.
Trust us. Don't try to play this game. You will lose, and lose big. None of us have anything to gain by giving you this advice. It's like the lottery, except there is no chance for a big payoff. By the way, the illegal mob numbers rackets in Chicago used to pay a larger portion of the money bet back to the players than the states do with the lotteries. So the modern lotteries are a worse gamble than betting with the mob, and they are still a whole lot better than trying to make money on old toy trains.
You can buy a few old Marklin sets and some old brass steam locomotives (but no where near all of them) at a good price and maybe turn them around for a modest profit, but only if you operate as a business. That means investing significant cash in inventory, high advertising costs, long hours and customers who expect A LOT when they pay you $400 for a brass loco. Are you willing to invest many thousands of dollars and the time it takes to run such a business? My hope is that you have a life and you're not willing to give that up to sell used trains, especially in a market which already has lots of competition and a declining customer base. Oldster hobbyists, like me at 63, with the money and time to spend on trains, are rapidly falling out of the ranks. Our eyes are growing dimmer, our fingers don't seem to handle tiny pieces as well as they used to and our backs complain way too much when we hunch over a model project all evening after supper. Younger hobbyists don't have the money yet, are there in much smaller numbers, and aren't interested in the same models. There are exceptions, of course, but not enough young customers who have that $400 for your $250 loco, or even know it's for sale unless you spread some advertising bread around a mature "industry." And lots of those newer potential customers have children to feed, braces to buy and family vacations in competition for what little spare money they have left after the mortgage, insurance premiums, car payments, utility bills, gasoline fill-ups, pension investments, food, medical care, clothes and the other niceties of 21st Century life are paid for.
As I said, trust us. Stay out of the used train set business. Learn A LOT about model trains, especially brass models, and you might be able to occasionally find something on ebay or at a garage sale that you can resell at a reasonable profit. But don't expect it to happen with "rare old train sets in mint condition." And remember, that lokie you got on ebay at such a great price could have been purchased by millions of other people on ebay, but it wasn't. What makes you think you can relist something which other buyers didn't buy for more than before? The only exception might be a brand new Buy-It-Now listing from someone who just wants "to get rid of this stuff." Sadly (maybe), there aren't many of those listings to be found.
Well, I'll retire from my soapbox with the hope that you take our advice to heart. If you do buy train sets, don't do it to profit. Do it to play with your kids for a while and then junk them and open another set.
-- D
more valuable trains can sometimes be the odd ball locomotives like shays climaxs and hieslers. or narrow gauge trains can be worth a lot or you could try and collect scratchbuilt or kitbashed locomotives and trains cars as these can be worth a lot of money. i just recently got into the collecting of mdc/roundhouse locomotives because they made trains in the era i model and they look great too. everyone has their opinions and your is always different than someone elses i a way and a great way to be in this hobby is making layouts because they are fun just to build. if you want to collect trainsets and sell them i recamend collecting Lionel or American flyer sets because these are normally the most valueable old scale trains you could get.
Yes Doneldon, the more I study auctions ending, the more I see just how true all you stated is.....
Plus, I have mostly bought train sets that are brand new and never ran, short of a great looking old Lionel set that I display....
I take many purchasing gambles. I bought 2 grand worth of Japanese/Chinese old die-cast robots, like Voltron an such from the early 80's. All real nice hand picked by me, 100% complete, as I have OCD and only buy what I consider close to mint items. It tried to sell the robots in one massive lot an failed (many more have 500 to spend, then two grand these days), but it was great advertisement, as I turned around an sold everyone solo. I sold them all for 3200. I did loose about 500 to eBay, paypal, shipping, but I cleared about 700. I have did well on all vintage toys from everything form Star wars, to G.I.Joe, to Disney Black Hole, to transformers. And I have never had an item not sell, even though that did mean taking a lose a couple of times and breaking even as well from time to time. But that was o.k., as your not gonna win them all, and I have been able to stay in bus for two years now.
I don't expect to make anything like that with the trains....
I am sure you guys get sick of the guy that comes along for a few posts, just hoping to make a buck on trains, with no real interest of trains themselves. That is not me, as I am a true hobbyist/collector at heart and am real lucky to make a four or five extra thousand a year on eBay, and most of that from gold or silver sells. I also bartend for my day job, and I am real lucky to scrape out 25 grand a year, with both the ebay an work, so I certainly am at the bottom of the barrel so to speak, and just happy to enjoy all that I do tremendously....
Like a wise fellow once said...."Find a job that you love, and you will never work another day in your life".....
I did a search for Lionel brass trains on eBay, an found 112 items, an two trains. One was like 350, and the other was a rare 2000 dollar one....
Then I searched Brass trains, and found 4184 items, many company's many great trains, way more expensive. Now then, you guys have me looking in the right spots now, as I see these guys bringing way more money. The first page had buy it now train an coal cars for 350 to 700 or so on buy it nows....
Again, I did get a nice O gauge Union Pacific Berkshire for 175 total. The other 3 or 4 I found on ebay were all listed right at 325 with shipping. This train only has some minor wheel wear, and is a solid C-9, with great chip free paint. Box is real solid as well, and the seller who had many 1000's of solid feed-backs said it ran great. Only year it was made was 1980 I think. I really like the size an detail of this Lionel O scale train, an man it looks great on my display shelf, real happy with that train....
I also checked the Z scale Marklins, and was like wow I like these instantly! This one below here is a 425 dollar set and way over priced I imagine. These Z scale seem smaller, and I like that. Don't get me wrong I like the Berkshire I mentioned above, but nothing I like more than small with great material an detail. Like die-cast, brass etc., on a smaller detailed scale, an this Z scale size may be what I am looking for....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sweet-Marklin-Mini-Club-Z-Scale-8108-Orient-ExpressTrain-Set-Made-Germany-/370553391496?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item5646b40988
I am gonna search all that Mr. Shay suggest as well, an all other suggestions, as there is much research involved here, as is any hobby that literally has millions of items out there on the market for sale, from trees to train sets.....
Well, that Old Tyme set sold for 90 bucks, an I payed 25 for it, my first train sell. Not getting rich again by any means with free shipping an ebay, but I moved it along to someone who will enjoy it....
Good Job the christmas season is being good to you...
NM-Jeff
BCS-
The Marklin Mini Club set didn't sell. I'm a little surprised. I can't speak authoritatively about Mini Club prices but I know they are dreadfully expensive. I guess this item shows that even the things with huge opening prices don't always have a market. But that's the way it goes. The set will eventually sell at some price, either this price or more or less. Yes, everything will sell sooner or later. The problems are how long it has to be held in inventory (non-productive investment) and what do you get when the sale comes along.
Good luck with your endeavors.
-- D
just to give you an idea of how out of line some of the prices on ebay can be, i was on amazon this morning and came across a listing for an atlas layout plan book for n scale. the seller wanted $293.98 for it, it sells in any hobby shop worthy of the name for under $10. the edition listed has an older cover and probably hasn't been updated for dcc, but still we are talking about a book no more than10-15 years old, that is still in print. nothing rare about it, and he isn't going to get anywhere near that for the book. he'll be lucky to get $10-15.
that said, older railroad books can and do fetch enormous amounts. but those are the well researched historical books, not the common coffee table kind you find in barnes & nobles. try and find a copy of tumult on the mountain, which was a history of shay locomotives, and you'll see what i mean.
Some collectors focus on a railroad or engine type. I spoke to a guy at a train show who collected GG-1 models - Lionel. AHM, whatever company made them. He also collected pictures of GG-1s. Why? His dad was an engineer and had started the collection.
My advice to anyone looking to seriously collect is not to look at Ebay prices but get one or more of the collector's guides. Also, a visit to a train show can be an eye opener!
Incidentally, the Lionel Blue Comet standard gauge set is the most highly sought after set of trains. In the next to last episode of the "Sopranos" Bobby B is killed in a train shop buying a set. A set in good condition, complete with little wear, can sell for $5000.
Quotejust to give you an idea of how out of line some of the prices on ebay can be, i was on amazon this morning and came across a listing for an atlas layout plan book for n scale. the seller wanted $293.98 for it, it sells in any hobby shop worthy of the name for under $10. the edition listed has an older cover and probably hasn't been updated for dcc, but still we are talking about a book no more than10-15 years old, that is still in print. nothing rare about it, and he isn't going to get anywhere near that for the book. he'll be lucky to get $10-15.
Yes the prices on eBay are out of line....but that goes both ways. A person could be selling off an estate and have no idea that they have a beautiful piece. They start the bidding low and you snag a bargain. Disclaimer: You have to be
very careful doing this! If the person doesn't know a lot about trains then it is hard for them to accurately describe their item.
-Brad
Watch what the pros do on eBay. They have low starting bids just to get people interested. Once you have several people bidding, they will often follow the auction right through to the end. The favorite spot often starts auctions at 1ยข. By the end of the auction, the price often exceeds the Buy it Now price for the same item in a different auction. Go figure.
Jim
Your so right Jim I recently won an auction from TFS and did good as the same item sold on another listing from them for $12 more than the buy it now price. When I bid on something I tend to check LHS and buy it now prices to see what I am going to put as my max bid, just like the auction hunters do.
Jerry
jward-
The price on that book is so insane I have to wonder if
the seller was careless with his keyboard.
-- D