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Discussion Boards => N => Topic started by: rustycoupler on November 17, 2011, 08:38:16 AM

Title: f-3 n gauge
Post by: rustycoupler on November 17, 2011, 08:38:16 AM
We need a new version of f-3 . With all these new models coming out like the gp-7 and new steam, wheres this engine? By the way we would need a powered and non powered for the well you know the speaker, because nobody makes a decent speaker for n yet, not a rant just sayin.
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: Desertdweller on November 17, 2011, 01:33:57 PM
Rusty,

Kato makes these units, in A&B versions, all powered.

They are nice, smooth runners.  I have two sets of them.  MSRP is $85/unit.

Les
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: skipgear on November 17, 2011, 11:19:59 PM
Kato and Intermountain both make better F3's and F7's right now. Intermountain and Model Power make FP7's. Lifelike fills in with FA1's and FA2's. IM makes FT an MicroTrains did them. Lets ask for something that isn't already done.
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: brokemoto on November 18, 2011, 04:42:24 AM


If it is four axle cab units under discussion, what is left?

Electro-Motive

FT-MT and IM

F-2-few prototypes, but no one has done it

F-3-Kato and IM

F-7-Kato, IM, LL, MP. TRIX

F-9- TRIX, Arnold, B-mann (all out of production).  IM has announced

ALCo

FA-1-LL

FA-2-Roco, LL, TRIX

Baldwin-

Sharks-  E-R, V-line shells

babyface-no one


FM-

Four axles-LL

B/A-1-A-RR long out of production-not B-B and really a passenger locomotive.


It appears that the only four axle freight cabs not done that are up to to-day's standards are the F-2 and Baldwin babyface.  You could throw in the FM B/A-1-A.  There are only three non C-C or A-1-A cabs not done in N.
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: Desertdweller on November 18, 2011, 03:01:40 PM
brokemoto,

There are a few others left:

ALCO:

Black Maria demonstrators: no one makes these.  Looked like little DL-109's.

FPA-4: Canadian model, but used in the USA. Not produced as N scale models, but maybe should be.

EMD: F-3 was produced by Con-Cor at one time.  I have a Con-Cor F-3B dummy.  Very strange trucks.

GE:

Demonstrator cab units used on Erie for evaluation, later sold to UP.  I don't think these had official model names.  They looked sort of like FA's, with small headlights and no nose grilles, car body side panels like those used on U-30CG's.  No one makes these, but would make an interesting kitbash.

Ingalls Shipbuilding:

Built a prototype sold to GM&O.  Had a body that looked a lot (to me) like the first run of KM hydralics sold to D&RGW and SP.  No one makes these either.

Of all of these, I think the only one that warrants production would be the FPA-4.  These were widely used by CN, and later were great power for shortlines.  Are used by Napa Wine Train; Grand Canyon Ry.; and others IIRC.  Also were used by VIA.

Les
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: Paul Kremer on November 19, 2011, 07:45:26 PM
What we need from the B'mann is a reliable, DCC-ready mechanism for all those Bachmann Plus and Spectrum F7 shells that have been extensively upgraded and detailed by lots of modeleres the past years. I have quite a few of them and they look great. They just run like crap, which is a pity. I'm sure an updated mechanism for the F7 will fill a void and will please lots of modelers around the world.

Paul,
Netherlands
(modeling the B&M in 1950's)
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: rustycoupler on November 21, 2011, 09:28:00 AM
 Exactly thats what i meant when i said that about the f-3 or f-7, i dont want to pay 95 dollars for one unit
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: skipgear on November 22, 2011, 01:15:55 AM
If it gets retooled and comes from Bachmann you probably will pay $95 for it. All new tooling coming from Bachmann in N scale is now coming with DCC on board and with each new loco, prices are going up. Retail on the newest release, the RS3 is $120.00. Good sale prices are in the $80-90 range. The lowest I have seen is $70 which is less than our shop has to pay for them. I still can't figure that one out.
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: Desertdweller on November 22, 2011, 02:26:52 PM
Those prices for DCC-equipped units sound reasonable to me.  But non-DCC units should be offered as well at a lower price.

There are a lot of us out here who do not use DCC.  Some of us already had large locomotive rosters before DCC was commonly used, making change-over impractically expensive.  Others simply like block control, with its ability to run any locomotive without modification.

Block control is simple and permanent.  Blocks can be controlled by either Atlas Selectors or DPDT switches from a place like Radio Shack.  While more wiring than for DCC is required, it is determined solely by the number of blocks you want.  On my railroad (and I suspect most others), wiring needed for remote-control switches exceeds that needed for block control.  You can even divide a block into electrically-isolated sections (like for parking locomotives) with simple on-off switches.

If I were to start all over again, had no existing locomotives or track, and did not intend to have many locomotives, I would certainly consider DCC.

Les
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: skipgear on November 23, 2011, 01:50:39 AM
All the Bachmann DCC loco's are dual mode and will run on DC also. It would cost them more to make two different light boards and different packaging for each model than to just include DCC on everything. There is no advantage for them to offer a DC version of the loco. The cost savings would only be about $10.

We just got the HO FA's in the shop, a DCC sound unit sells for $125, the DC / DCC ready version is $80. It's almost pointless there to offer the non sound version. For $40, who isn't going to consider sound?
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: mhampton on November 23, 2011, 08:13:36 AM
Quote from: skipgear on November 23, 2011, 01:50:39 AM
We just got the HO FA's in the shop, a DCC sound unit sells for $125, the DC / DCC ready version is $80. It's almost pointless there to offer the non sound version. For $40, who isn't going to consider sound?


For a cash-strapped operation for whom even $80 for a new locomotive will stretch the budget, $40 for unneeded or unwanted sound costs the dealer a potential customer.
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: skipgear on November 23, 2011, 11:12:21 AM
To be quite blunt, there aren't many loco's that aren't in the $80 and up price range any more. The only thing left under that price range are the $50 Bachmann trainset loco's which are dated and not worth the money they do get for them. They are fine for a first loco or to run around a Christmas tree but they don't hold a candle to the other equipment available.

I don't mean to be an elitest but model railroading costs money. If $40 is going to make or break you, then there are other things you should be worrying about rather than buying a locomotive. $40 is what I spent on Pizza last friday night for the family.
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: mhampton on November 23, 2011, 03:01:35 PM
So if I can't see paying $120 to get the $80 value I need, I should just get out of the hobby?  Sounds like you've been in the hobby for a number of years, perhaps near retirement age, and have a significant amount of disposable income.  If so, $40 may not seem significant.  For those of us that are not quite at that point (ranging from young teens to fairly recent empty-nesters) or are just struggling along in this lousy economy, if we want to enjoy this hobby, we have to watch where our money goes. 
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: Desertdweller on November 23, 2011, 08:33:15 PM
I would not want to say you couldn't find a decent N-scale locomotive for $40, but you probably couldn't find one at MSRP for that amount.

Regardless, you can get mighty nice N-scale passenger cars at that price.  Often you can find them at a great deal less.  $40 will still get you two top-shelf freight cars.

Forty bucks is forty bucks.  It will still get you a pile of scenery materials, or two remote-control turnouts, or half a tank of gas.

If it costs $10 more per unit to put DCC into them, raise the cost $10 over what a non-DCC should sell for.  On the theoretical $80 unit, a $40 bump is a 50% price increase.

$40 shouldn't "make us or break us".  But it can and should "make or break" a buying decision.

Les
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: skipgear on November 24, 2011, 01:47:52 AM
Quote from: mhampton on November 23, 2011, 03:01:35 PM
So if I can't see paying $120 to get the $80 value I need, I should just get out of the hobby?  Sounds like you've been in the hobby for a number of years, perhaps near retirement age, and have a significant amount of disposable income.  If so, $40 may not seem significant.  For those of us that are not quite at that point (ranging from young teens to fairly recent empty-nesters) or are just struggling along in this lousy economy, if we want to enjoy this hobby, we have to watch where our money goes.  

You shouldn't assume too much, I've been in the hobby for about 6 years. I got back in shortly after my now 7 year old son was born. I have a 3 week old daughter so I'm certainly not rolling in dough but I'm also realize that $40 is only a very small percentage of what it costs to put a model railroad together. If I don't spend it on a loco, I will spend it on scenery or somthing else down the road. This hobby is expensive, there is no way around that fact.

The 120 vs. 80 reference was to a new HO release showing the fact that DCC and sound has come down to the price difference that used to be just to get a DCC equipped loco. $125 for a sound equipped loco is incredible. I have N scale sound decoders that cost more than that and that doesn't include a loco to put them in. The least expensive option before that for an HO loco with DCC and sound was pushing the $200+ mark. I first find it interesting that the loco without DCC is $80 on sale for a non spectrum HO diesel yet the sound version is $125 on sale. Those are both items breaking ground. Prior to this, most standard line HO loco's were in the 50-60 mark, with DCC (no sound).

I work at a shop where we keep a few of the "trainset" loco's on hand for the person that only considers price.  That is only time they sell, when money is the only consideration, "I have $40 to spend, what can I get?", type of person. Most people are concerned about quality, detail and fedelity of the loco (in that order). They are willing to pay more to get a better loco and if it comes with DCC included at the same price, it's just a bonus to them.

Back to what started this....

Current new N scale releases seem to be aiming for the $100-120 retail price point w/DCC. I doubt there are going to be any new releases in that $50 retail segment any more. Those loco just aren't selling. DCC is here to stay. I remember seeing a quote from somebody at Bachmann a few years back that all newly tooled N scale releases would be coming with DCC included. This years batch of announcements seems to back that up. If you want a new F unit from Bachmann, expect it to follow this trend and be around $120 retail and come with DCC installed. That will put the street price right at the same price range as the Intermountain and Kato offerings which at this point, run better.
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: Albert in N on November 24, 2011, 01:40:44 PM
Like any hobby, there is a wide price range.  Compare fishing from the dock to fishing from a big boat.  Model railroading has served me well as a protection from a high stress job, for over 40 years.  This hobby can be enjoyed at any time or day of the week, while at home.  Even simple figure 8, double loop, or dogbone track variations can be very relaxing, plus a lot of fun.  Compared to other hobbies, there is low risk.  Model railroading is not abnormally dangerous, plus normally has no use fees (like golf course or fishing license), plus fines are not a concern (like hot rods, hunting/fishing, rock climbing).  Visit a model train hobby shop, attend a train show, or attend a train club.  You will meet interesting people, have fun, plus learn more about this hobby.  To link to the original topic, I own N scale F units (old MiniTrix f-7s, Bachmann F-7 Spectrum, Bachmann F-9 standard, Kato F-3s & F-7s, and Intermountain F-7).  I like all of them a lot!  I only paid $49.95 for my Bachmann Spectrum F-7 AB unit set at a train show.  My Bachmann F-9 Highballer train set cost me less than $60 at Hobby Lobby using their 40% discount coupon.  Both are reliable runners and a lot of fun.  Bachmann has DCC HO scale units at reasonable pricing, if you don't want to wait for similar in N.
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: Country Joe on November 29, 2011, 10:39:26 AM
I think there is a mistake in the argument. The price difference between a DCC on board engine and a DCC ready engine is not $40. The GP7 has a MSRP of $110. If it were offered in a DCC ready version it might be $100 MSRP. Then again, if Bachmann had to make 2 versions they might be $115 and $105 respectively. This means that DCC on board really costs $5-10 more per engine, not $40. Look at the price of Atlas, Kato and other DCC ready engines. The MSRP is in the $110 range. Bachmann is giving us DCC on board for very little more. Most of the price increase is detailing and reliability. Older, non Spectrum engines were not the best runners and more toys than models. New standard line engines are excellent runners and far more detailed. They don't have the detail of a Spectrum model, but they are good scale models none the less.

Comparing Bachmann DCC on board to new DCC ready engines from other manufacturers shows that Bachmann is offering DCC on board for just about the same price as other MFG's DCC ready. You have to compare new to new since older engines, even if they are new in that they have been on shelves and never run, cost less to manufacture at the time they were made. Also, if they are new and sitting on a dealer's shelf, he will offer them at a very attractive price to get rid if them and stock those shelves with more popular products.

Look at the new boxcars. They are very nice models, far more detailed than those offered a short time ago, but also more expensive. Some might say, give me Rapido couplers, doors that do not open, and less detail because that's what I can afford. If Bachmann made two versions, they would each cost more and when model railroaders saw them the overwhelming majority would choose the more detailed model for a few bucks more.

I think Bachmann is headed in the right direction and is offering some great models for a reasonable price.
Title: Re: f-3 n gauge
Post by: Albert in N on November 29, 2011, 09:05:58 PM
Agree.  I just hope that new FT units are in the picture.  The dual mode decoders should work fine for DC layouts like mine (I'm not into DCC yet).  If no FT units, F-3, F-7, or F-9 units are welcome, too.  For ATSF fans, I almost cried when Santa Fe converted their handsome F-7 units into ugly CF-7 hood units at their Cleburne TX shops back in the 1970's.  Yes, I know why since I witnessed engineers backing standard F-7s while switching.  Still, the standard F unit has the right look.