Hi to you On30 Narrow Gaugers all!
Just asked myself, since I run a 2-Rail O-Scale Standard gauge Layout too,
if someone does the needed Turnouts for two gauges O/On30?
Would be great if one of you guys has a recommendation for me...
Thanks, and keep those ol´drivers rolling...
Kind regards, Tom
Unfortunately I am unaware of anybody who offers dual gauge O/ON30 track or turnouts. They do exist for HO/HON30 (under the european title HO/HOe, it is the same) but not as far as I know in O scale.
I too would be interested if some-one made it, but I can't see Bachmann doing it. It would be goog though.
Hamish
Tom - the only example of dual-gauge track - as it is correctly called - that I have seen was hand-laid.
To me, the phrase 'three-rail track' means track with a centre pick-up rail , like the old Lionel stuff.
tacx
www.ovgrs.org
There are about a dozen different varieties of dual guage turnouts--some fairly easy to hand-lay; others are, as one wag put it, "basket-weaving in nickle silver". The kicker is which side acts as the common rail, and which way the turnout goes. They are also very "interesting" to wire up.
tac,
what I meant was a dual guage Track, formed by a third rail giving a correct 3ft gauge. This gives lots of complications, I´m aware, ob boy...
But in fact, I don´t have a clue which specialist coud do turnouts in 3 rail...
Atlas´s Standard Gauge Track is fine, but how to convert a Std Gauge Turnout to 3 Rail - I wouldn´t risk to have a try on that...
Kind regards and thank you all for your thoughts...
Tom
I saw a photo in a magazine..I cant recall which magazine now,
(or maybe it was a forum post somewhere..sorry, I cant remember where I saw it!)
but anyway..it showed a photo of dual-gauge O-scale track, standard gauge and On30..
but with a big problem.
Prototype dual gauge track, standard gauge and 3-foot gauge, looks like this:
http://www.spikesys.com/Bin/EBT/rcs_62.jpg
http://iceandcoal.org/ebt/mupix/overturned.jpg
Thats the East Broad Top.
The EBT is 3-foot gauge, and interchanged with the standard gauge PRR.
standard gauge track is 4' 8.5"
3-foot gauge is..3 feet.
so you have tracks three feet apart, a gap of a foot and a half or so, then the outer standard gauge track..the middle rail is very "off center"..not even close to the center, right?
right.
Now the problem with O-scale.
O-scale standard gauge track is NOT 4' 8.5"
it actually scales out to 5 feet.
On30 models of 3' gauge prototypes are not running on 3-foot gauge model track..they are running on 30" gauge, which is 2.5 feet.
so..5 foot standard gauge, 2.5 foot narrow gauge..the middle rail is right down the center, making it look like 3-rail track! :(
you totally lose that cool "off-center" look to the prototype dual gauge..
because the O-scale standard gauge is too wide, and the On30 narrow gauge is too narrow..the midle rail runs right down the center..
in that magazine article, the owner of the dual-gauge track, with the 5-foot prototype track and the 2.5 inch narrow, with the middle rail right down the center, tried to explain that its not technically *dead* center, because of the width of the rails and all that..but his argument wasnt terribly convincing! ;)
yeah, maybe if you look really close, you can see its ever-so-slightly off center..but the effect of the prototype dual-gauge is definitely not there! at first glance, it looks like O-gauge 3-rail track..you cant really see the off-centerness.
the only way around that is to model On3 and Proto48...then both gauges are true to the prototype.
Scot
Scot
16.5mm track inside 32mm track is marginally offset, just as 30 inch track is slightly offset inside standard gauge track. O/On30 dual gauge looks like real life 30 inch/ standard dual gauge track, i.e. very slightly off centre. Neither look like 3 foot/standard dual gauge.
Strictly, 1n 1:48 scale 16.5mm track is 2 foot 7 and 1/4 inches gauge. In european O scale (1:45) standard gauge O is close to accurate and 16.5mm close to 30 inch. (In the British O scale 1:43.5 both are too narrow).
As I regard my ON30 as representing 30 inch gauge (I am not worried about a stray scale inch) I would welcome dual gauge O/ON30 track and switches. If some-else thinks it looks like 3 rail O scale that is their problem, they obviously haven"t seen real life dual 30 inch/ standard gauge track.
Hamish
Quote from: Hamish K on July 18, 2007, 08:19:18 PM
Scot
16.5mm track inside 32mm track is marginally offset, just as 30 inch track is slightly offset inside standard gauge track. O/On30 dual gauge looks like real life 30 inch/ standard dual gauge track, i.e. very slightly off centre. Neither look like 3 foot/standard dual gauge.
Strictly, 1n 1:48 scale 16.5mm track is 2 foot 7 and 1/4 inches gauge. In european O scale (1:45) standard gauge O is close to accurate and 16.5mm close to 30 inch. (In the British O scale 1:43.5 both are too narrow).
As I regard my ON30 as representing 30 inch gauge (I am not worried about a stray scale inch) I would welcome dual gauge O/ON30 track and switches. If some-else thinks it looks like 3 rail O scale that is their problem, they obviously haven"t seen real life dual 30 inch/ standard gauge track.
Hamish
thats all well and good..except that probably 98% of On30 modelers are modeling American 3-foot gauge prototypes, not 30"..
and anyone who wants dual-gauge, is talking about 3-foot and standard gauge dual-gauge.
QuoteIf some-else thinks it looks like 3 rail O scale that is their problem, they obviously haven"t seen real life dual 30 inch/ standard gauge track.
it IS their problem if they want to model 3-foot and standard gauge, which is what virtually what everyone wants..
its a big problem..no one wants dual-gauge trackage that looks like 3-rail.
Quotethey obviously haven"t seen real life dual 30 inch/ standard gauge track.
who HAS seen that?? not many.. ;)
thats like saying "they obviously haven't seen real life austrian-built switchers in Tasmania circa 1851..and if you model Colorado 3-foot gauge and you dont like track that looks like Lionel tinplate, thats your problem"..
ummm..yeah, ok, thanks for the help.
where in the world is there (or was there) 30" and standard gauge dual-gauge trackage? im sure it existed, but I challenge you to find more than two people actually modeling those railroads! ;)
sure, it probably exists..but that isnt what we are talking about here..
just because On30 = 30" track, dosent meant thats what the VAST majority of On30 modelers are modeling..
Scot
Well, there was a lot of 30"inch" dual gauge trackage in Europe, remembering that 30" was one of the more common narrow gauge "gauges" in the world as opposed to 3'.
First, one must remember in the 1800s no two European nation states agreed on a standard "inch/zoll" so 30" could be anywhere from 700-785mm
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoll_(Einheit)#Alte_Definitionen)
Now, for photos or examples I can find online, here is a photo of the Czech 30"/750mm JHMD line:
(http://web.quick.cz/rails/jhradec/020921img/P9210012.JPG)
This did have drawbacks however.....
http://www.jhmd.cz/story029e.htm
I have other examples of this in Germany and in Austria, in print, cannot find anything on the net tho.
As pointed out, the trackage is available for the H0e/H0 market via Tillig.
And yes, there are plenty of us that model it.
Garrett
Moderator of the Yahoo-H0e group.
Scot
I am not sure what percentage of people who buy Bachmann or other American ON30 eqipment model 30 inch gauge, but it may well be more than you imagine. Remember Bachmann ON30 is sold in quite a lot of countries other than the USA. American locomotive builders exported quite a lot of 30 inch gauge locos to various countries e.g. Central and South America, Africa, Australia and thus people buy Bachmann equipment to model those roads. The 2-8-0, both Porters, the Shay and the Davenport are all quite close to actual 30 inch gauge locos used in a number of countries. I live in Australia where ON30 has become popular and is mainly used to model 30 inch gauge.
In Europe and the UK O scale narrow gauge on HO track is quite common although not strictly ON30. (Europe is Oe, UK O 16.5). The same dual gauge track could be used for all three, the gauges are the same although the scales vary a bit. Thus such track might have a reasonable market.
Finally, remember the first rule of model railroading. If you don't like the look of dual O/ON30 track, fine - no-one, least of all me, is saying you should like it or that you have to use it. But don't knock those who do.
Hamish
To get back to the original question posted by Tom, the answer may be to try Russ Simpson.
Russ used to build custom trackwork, and one of his adverts featured a dual gauge (possibly US O/On3) stub turnout threaded by a near 90 degree crossing (also dual gauge). A very impressive statement of capability.
I do not have a website reference for Russ, but he is active on selling pointwork through eBay. Take a look under O scale and you might find him,
Terry2foot
Quote from: Hamish K on July 19, 2007, 02:35:21 AM
Scot
I am not sure what percentage of people who buy Bachmann or other American ON30 eqipment model 30 inch gauge, but it may well be more than you imagine. Remember Bachmann ON30 is sold in quite a lot of countries other than the USA. American locomotive builders exported quite a lot of 30 inch gauge locos to various countries e.g. Central and South America, Africa, Australia and thus people buy Bachmann equipment to model those roads.
Hamish
Heck, some US built stuff ended up in Europe for 30" gauge also, right around the wars.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:2-6-6-2.jpg
For further reading:
http://www.pearcedale.com/c&b/thirty.html
Hi all!
Thank you for all your thoughts and recommendations, Terry2foot, I´ll have a go to find out about Russ Simpson, just case he can do something for me.
I don´t stick that close, but I´m modelling DRGW in On30, where On30 dual gauge track would in fact look a bit odd, but this could give a cool chance to get the On30 rolling stock a bit more "living space"...
Thanks to you all.
Keep on the right track...
Kind regards from Germany,
Tom ;D
Tom,
russ simpson is currently offering track gauges on eBay, search for item 200129444521 and you will find him.
Terry2foot
The Question now becomes 'O' std. gauge or 'O' p-48 gauge for the track?
Quote from: toysnstuff on July 20, 2007, 01:54:20 PM
The Question now becomes 'O' std. gauge or 'O' p-48 gauge for the track?
P48 is really cool, but its definitely a lot of work!
its worth it though if you are really into "fine scale" modeling.
Im going to start an On2 layout soon, built around the new Bachmann Forney..(the forney is what got me into On2!)
regauging is a challenge, but worth it IMO, just to get the right look.
I also plan to model a small stretch of standard gauge track.
(The prototype Maine 2-footers interchanged with Standard Gauge railroads in several places..there were several dual-gauge diamond crossings, but no actual "dual gauge track")
so for my short stretch of SG track, im going to hand-lay P48 track and regauge one locomotive and train..probably just one train for a static display, not operating. (unfortunately I dont have room for an operating P48 track on my On2 layout.. :'( oh-well, cant have it all I suppose..)
so it all depends on what you want to achieve..
the whole "point" of On30 is that its "easier" than On3..and many people can accept that incorrect gauge in exchange for the ease of use..
thats fine...
but if you are really into very accurate scale modeling, On3 and P48 could be very rewarding! it depends on how much work you are willing to do to get what you want! :)
Scot
Scot,
there was a short length of 2 foot gauge and standard gauge "dual gauge" track next to the coal shed at Bridgton Junction on the B&SR/B&H.
Terry2foot
Quote from: terry2foot on July 21, 2007, 02:36:17 AM
Scot,
there was a short length of 2 foot gauge and standard gauge "dual gauge" track next to the coal shed at Bridgton Junction on the B&SR/B&H.
Terry2foot
there was?! ;D
thanks Terry, I never knew that!
for some reason, I haven't started getting any books on the B&H yet,
I have nearly all of them on the SR&RL, WW&F and KC, but the B&H isnt that well known to me yet..time to get more books! ;D
are there photos of this dual-gauge track in any B&SR/B&H books?
and was there a dual-gauge turnout? or just a "gauntlet track" type arrangement?
thanks,
Scot
Scot,
it was simply a length of "overlapping" track approached by both gauges from different ends to give both access to the coal shed. The arrangement did not need dual gauge turnouts.
It is shown in Trevor's schematics of track layouts recently posted on the Maine On2 board files, so you don't need to buy any books
Terry2foot
The comment on P:48 is important in this discussion, since no one seems to have raised the issue--The BIG problem with O dual gauge is that if you use the NMRA O scale standards for flangeways, the track is almost incompatible with narrow gauge--either On3 or On30, both of which essentially use HO wheel and flange standards. I have this problem on my layout with several dual gauge turnouts. With care, you can make them work reasonably well, but not totally reliable. There is just too much slop for the n.g. stock. Going P:48 would solve the problem, since their standards are very close to the HO wheel and flangeway standards. The downside, of course, is if you have standard gauge steam, the conversion is a MAJOR rebuild, probably one best left to custom builders. If you only have short length of s.g. for interchange and don't run a loco, you can use the P:48 standards with whichever gauge you model. It will look really good.