Every time I log on I see at least one variant of the same question: "how small a radius of a curve can (blah-blah-blah-blah-blah)?".
Why? What is the root of the drive to go so small when bigger is better? I don't believe it is limited space. My layout is U-shaped and 15" maximum wide including the 90 degree junctures and yet my smallest curve is 22" radius, the other is 28" R. I think it's the idea of squeezing more railroad out of limited space but my thought is that "less railroad more realistic" is much better than "more railroad less realistic."
PF
This is almost always from a newbie wanting to run large six axle or large steam.
Like many other things in model railroading there is a learning curve on track radius.
I started this newest layout with 4 axle GP38-2's and 40 foot cars so the 9.5" was ok.
Then like many I decided that I wanted to move from the mid 70's to the mid 90's.
Well then, this called for adding some 6 axle engines and 50' plus rolling stock.
I realized very soon the error of my ways.
So now after much reworking of the track the smallest curves are 11".
Worth every bit of effort to correct this lapse of judgment on my part. :o
Point to point layouts are not for everybody. Many of us enjoy showing our handiwork to friends, neighbours and relatives as well as running our trains back and forth. But we usually do not enjoy both at the same time. Visitors like to see trains running and they enjoy talking about them. They are not so interested in looking silently at your back as you do some fancy switching maneuvers. Thus many of us include loops, hidden or otherwise, in our track plans so that both we and our visitors can enjoy the best of both worlds.
Unless you are modelling in Z-scale, I doubt you can achieve continuous running on a 15" maximum width, U-shaped layout. In H0 scale, it takes at least 3-1/2 feet of table width for a return loop or semicircle of track. This is already a foot too wide to comfortably work on if the table is against a wall. Increasing track radius to 22, 24 or 30 inch radius increases table width to 4, 4-1/2 or 5-1/2 feet, all of which require access from both sides or well placed access hatches, both of which may be beyond the space, skills or interests of the modeller.
Not everybody who starts a model railroad envisions a basement or garage full of trains. More likely they are thinking of a smaller layout that fits comfortably in a corner of the family room or on the bottom level of Juniors bunk bed. Something around 3-1/2 feet by 5 or 6 feet. Often it is a major step to expand their idea to 4 by 8 feet even though that greatly increases their layout's potential. If they do convince their spouses, parents or themselves that the increased size is justified, they are not about to reduce that potential by using larger radius curves - besides they already have the 18" radius curves that came with their set. It is only later when they want to add more locomotives and rolling stock that they discover that not all of them will run on their choice of curves. So there are many questions of the form "how small a curve can locomotive X and rolling stock Y run on?" Even though we may see these questions as repetitious, they are still valid questions from people who need to know, and each and every one of them deserves an answer.
So now you know why.
Jim
Well stated, Jim.
A U-shaped layout with the dimensions given in the original post could only be built as a point-to-point. Nothing wrong with that, as long as the builder accepts the limitations inherent in that design.
Nothing was said about what scale was used. I had an N-scale railroad that was 7 1/2' x 22 1/2". Curve radius was 9 3/4". Its small size enabled its longevity: 28 years.
Les
Well the older I get, and I am getting old, I think smaller is better. Not that they layout needs to be small but less trains. The more locomotives you have the more time that must be spend on maintaining. You can spend a lot of time switching cars out.
Why?
The answer is simple....
Why not!
When I get bored, I sometimes ask myself the same question. The answer comes back to me. I am bored so I forget about it. It is just, blah, blah, blah stuff.
Some people have trouble researching what they want and what they can realistically do.
I remember my Lionel train days.
Rich
Why? Why do so many people assume everyone is a rivet counter and wants a prototypical layout?
There is no one way to build a layout, it relaxes me to just have a train running around and around, I have limited space and like on30 so I have to build the tightest curves i can get away with
I have zero interest in switching layouts, I build small layouts that are just continuous circles, theres a trolley running a endless 22" diameter (not radius) circle under my coffee table as I write this.
Also if I see another loco that I like I will ask how tight a radius it will run on to determine if it will run on my layout, this is much better then ordering one online placing it on the track and then watching it derail.
Why? Because it's what I want. ;D
Nm-Jeff
Quote from: NarrowMinded on January 22, 2012, 11:36:51 PM
Why? Why do so many people assume everyone is a rivet counter and wants a prototypical layout?
There is no one way to build a layout, it relaxes me to just have a train running around and around, I have limited space and like on30 so I have to build the tightest curves i can get away with
I have zero interest in switching layouts, I build small layouts that are just continuous circles, theres a trolley running a endless 22" diameter (not radius) circle under my coffee table as I write this.
Also if I see another loco that I like I will ask how tight a radius it will run on to determine if it will run on my layout, this is much better then ordering one online placing it on the track and then watching it derail.
Why? Because it's what I want. ;D
Nm-Jeff
Me, too.
Well said. :)
Point to point layouts are fine but most of the time I like to just watch trains run.
i have a 9' x 14' on30 layout... some curves are broad for the mainline, some are 15", going to the sawmill and such.. just like the prototype, different locos can only operate on certain areas, keeps the interest up... and it is a folded dogbone, cause sometimes i just like to sit on the stool and watch them go around..
cause i can, its my road, thats why.. :)
Quote from: ChrisS on January 24, 2012, 02:09:39 PM
cause i can, its my road, thats why.. :)
Rule #1: It's my railroad.
Rule #2: Refer to Rule #1.
;)
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on January 24, 2012, 03:09:53 PM
Quote from: ChrisS on January 24, 2012, 02:09:39 PM
cause i can, its my road, thats why.. :)
Rule #1: It's my railroad.
Rule #2: Refer to Rule #1.
;)
An oft used rule to excuse poor planning, unrealistic scenes and a whole mess of unprototypical modelling.
im sorry my railroad doesnt live up to your standards... count rivets much do you?
Chris, Much agree do I. :D
I agree that a folded dog bone is the way to go if one has the room.
It gives the appearance and interoperability of of a point to point, yet trains can be run roundy round if so desired.
Quote from: ChrisS on January 24, 2012, 05:40:56 PM
im sorry my railroad doesnt live up to your standards... count rivets much do you?
No, I have no idea what your model railroad looks like but I stand by what I wrote, which was not referring to you BTW as I don't know you or your model railroad.
But rule No. 1 it is used frequently as an excuse.
saying it's your railroad and you built it the way you wanted it is not an excuse. Now saying that it was the best you could do without trying to learn how to do something better that would be an excuse. If it is the way you want it though it doesn't matter how other perceive it.
When the prototypical folk get on you, just remark about their realistic 22" radius curves, as seen in real life everywhere, and factories/industries with parking lots that aren't big enough to handle the lunch delivery cars (few, if any rivet counters have parking lots that are scale capacity) :)
:)
Quote from: GoCanes on January 24, 2012, 07:10:15 PM
When the prototypical folk get on you, just remark about their realistic 22" radius curves :)
"Prototype folk" wouldn't use 22" radius curves. :)
But your point is well taken in that we cannot be 100% prototype as the prototype doesn't scale down to the space we have to model in. Therefore, compromises have to be made.
Is there a (good, reasonable, edifying, meaningful, respectful,
engaging???) reason why we're having this discussion?
-- D
Why should anyone need to excuse their model railroad to anyone? You built it, you paid for it. If you wound up with what you intended to have, great. If not, keep working on it until you are satisfied.
I'm always working to improve my model railroad. That doesn't mean I don't like what I built. A model railroad is a machine that can always be improved. Working on it to get it to operate better is a source of enjoyment to me (you can tell right away if your efforts show results).
All model railroads are compromises to some extent. It just depends on what features you want to emphasize.
A point-to-point track plan is realistic in operational theory, but real railroads are generally more than one half mile long, which is what a model railroad may work out to be in scale.
Full-size trains don't usually run around a closed track circuit. But they do make trips of hours at a time, which a loop track plan will enable.
If your long cars show curved rail visible along their sides on sharp radius turns, that isn't realistic. But if your train runs off onto the floor because your layout won't accommodate wide radius curves, that's not realistic either.
If you have a train that is anachronistic to the rest of your equipment, and you paint it with glow-in-the-dark paint, and run it around in the dark as "the ghost train", well, that's fine with me, too.
It's your hobby. All the info about it can only show you examples of how other people have fun with it.
It's your time and your money. I would not let anyone decide if I should enjoy it or not.
There are lots of ways of doing this, and lots of equipment available to do it with. If someone doesn't like your railroad, they are welcome to spend their money and build their own.
Les
Quote from: Doneldon on January 24, 2012, 07:41:31 PM
Is there a (good, reasonable, edifying, meaningful, respectful,
engaging???) reason why we're having this discussion?
-- D
:)
Quote from: Desertdweller on January 24, 2012, 07:47:43 PM
Why should anyone need to excuse their model railroad to anyone? You built it, you paid for it. If you wound up with what you intended to have, great. If not, keep working on it until you are satisfied.
Les
I agree 100%, which is why "Rule No1" is not required as to me it sounds like an excuse and there's no need for anyone to excuse their model work.
you know, one thing that's often missing among those who take detailing seriously is context. many of the older modellers understood this, john allen and allen mccleland come to mind. it is possible and even likely that overemphasis on detail will cause you to lose sight of the forest because of the trees.
personally, i would much rather have a railroad which may have a few anamolies, but captures the essence of what the real things were in the era i model, than have a finely detailed layout i am afraid to run for fear of breaking something.
somebody made the comment serious modellers wouldn't use 22r curves. i beg to differ. it depends on what you are modelling. if you are modelling the western maryland ry in west virginia, or the rio grande narrow duage, for example, 36r curves would look rediculous, while 22-24r curves would look right at home and effectively capture the conditions the actual railroads encountered in the mountains. but if you're trying to model the union pacific in nebraska, even a 36r curve looks out of place.
it has been my experience that when running a railroad which captures the essence of the real thing, you don't really notice the scenery or details much because you are engrossed in running the trains.
my personal philosophy is to have a layout whatever the space i have, use curves down to 18r if i have to, and box up the larger locomotives and cars rather than try to get them to work on sharp curves. as much as i would love to run sd80macs, because i worked with the real ones, on my current layout i have restricted myself to the 4 axle diesels and 50 foot cars that work reliably on 18r.
Quote from: rogertra on January 24, 2012, 07:26:47 PM
Quote from: GoCanes on January 24, 2012, 07:10:15 PM
When the prototypical folk get on you, just remark about their realistic 22" radius curves :)
"Prototype folk" wouldn't use 22" radius curves. :)
But your point is well taken in that we cannot be 100% prototype as the prototype doesn't scale down to the space we have to model in. Therefore, compromises have to be made.
LOL! No, I guess they wouldn't use 22" radius at that. ;) Parking Lot size is an ace in the hole, at least (I know the parking area for my Tropicana plant holds about three trucks and a couple compact cars, LOL!
:)
Nobody ever says: "Cool! I just love that scale parking lot! I like how it takes up three square feet!" :)
Quote from: GoCanes on January 25, 2012, 08:54:02 AM
Nobody ever says: "Cool! I just love that scale parking lot! I like how it takes up three square feet!" :)
;D
And some other folks need to lighten up, get a sense of humor, and remember that in the end, no matter how prototypical, no matter how much a wonderful work of art (and some model railroads truly are works of art) a model railroad may be, we're still just big boys playing with toy trains.
I'm just sayin'. ...
I was reading these post and I have rebuilt my 5x9ft HO layout a 100times .Cause I'm not satisfied ,I want bigger longer mainlines I want to be able to hold my hand up to my brau and go there coming back threw in a minute .But you know I just don't have the space . But what I do have is a thing called DCC .And good quality Bachmann products that allow me to be able to run a couple of strings of 4axle diesels and 40 to 50 ft rolling stock around a double mainline . and run my 70tonners in threw the switches pushing or pulling a load up or down an incline even .And for a good laugh and smile I get my little MDT Plymoth that was converted to DCC with a becon light on the cab and run him .
My large stuff , I wish so bad that I could have this nice elaborate outdoor layout . But the best part of that is when I set it all up outside because I do have to bring my track in . But when I call my dad and he rides down on his scooter and we sit and run trains and talk about life .how cool is that I'm glad I had the money to put sound in my F-3 and looking to do remote control and battery power . I don't have the proto typical railroad right now But when its running and my trains are moving its my railroad and I get the satisfaction of it . And somebody who doesn't have what we have sure looks in amazement .
And what about train shows I've seen some just set up on table's and the look on those kids eyes when those trains are running around the circles or ovals . some are modelers and some people just love trains.
Even the best model railroad is but a caricature of the real thing. And the wise modeler understands the art of caricature - emphasizing the important elements and simplifying the unimportant ones. I believe Allen McClelland and John Allen understood this well and used it to put their railroads into context. Some of the concepts we accept as normal today - obscuring our too sharp corners, abandoning strict adherence to scale in order to force perspective, and building recognizable structures that are lower, shorter and narrower than their prototypes - are all part of the caricaturist's art.
Jim
Quote from: NarrowMinded on January 22, 2012, 11:36:51 PM
Why? Why do so many people assume everyone is a rivet counter and wants a prototypical layout?
There is no one way to build a layout, it relaxes me to just have a train running around and around, I have limited space and like on30 so I have to build the tightest curves i can get away with
I have zero interest in switching layouts, I build small layouts that are just continuous circles, theres a trolley running a endless 22" diameter (not radius) circle under my coffee table as I write this.
Also if I see another loco that I like I will ask how tight a radius it will run on to determine if it will run on my layout, this is much better then ordering one online placing it on the track and then watching it derail.
Why? Because it's what I want. ;D
Nm-Jeff
Same here - ditto to all above. It's my choice also!
My layout is my choice - no excuses or complaints given or expected. I'm the only one that has to like it. All I usually ask is someone accept it as my choice.
;)