G'Day all. This time I am looking for a little help regarding cleaning of my HO track. At the moment I am building my layout, and laying tracks. In some areas, I have to lean across, and place my arms on some of the track. After a few days, my nickle silver track became very dull and grimy. I used one of those Peco tracking rubbers to clean the track of all the grime. The track came up nice and shiny, but I was astonished at the amount of grit that was in between the tracks. I took a length of flexi track, placed it on the bare layout table, and cleaned the rails with my Peco Track Cleaning Rubber. After cleaning this section of track, I tipped it on its side and tapped it on the table. I was shocked at the amount of shiny grit that was on the table from the rubber. I have decided to only use the rubber to remove spills of paint, glue, etc., that has fallen on the track. Any help with cleaning my track is much appreciated. I have purchased a bottle of Model Power, Track Cleaner, and a bottle of Rail-Zip. Both of these bottles have no instructions on how to use these liquids on my track. Can anyone help. I want something that I can wet a cloth with, and then rub the tracks to get off the grime on the rails. Any help would be much appreciated. Regards. Col.
For 30 years i have used nothing but a clean rag with mineral spirits (Paint thinner) to wipe down my track. I do this about every 2 months and i run trains everyday. Every 3 months i clean the wheels on the cars. Almost never have to clean the engine wheels. Works for me.
Bob
Col - The whole subject of track cleaning has taken almost cult-like characteristics. One might almost think that truly clean track is accomplished with 'smoke & mirrors'.
First a little chemistry: The black deposit on the top of the rails is nickel oxide (III). Recent studies have shown that this 'deposit' is comprised of a mixture of nickel oxide, dust, and other contaminants. Oddly, under microscopic observation, the 'deposit' is arranged in 'dots' or 'spots' and is not continuous. The current prevailing theory is that small amounts of 'dirt', on the locomotive wheels, causes arcing between the wheel and the rail surface (the 'dirt' effectively 'picks up' the wheel allowing it to lose contact momentarily with the rail surface) - speeding up the process of corrosion.
There is only one sure way to remove the deposit...mechanically. Whether you use a Brite-Boy type pad or a dry track cleaning car the deposit must be removed mechanically. However you are wasting your time 'scrubbing' the track if you haven't taken the time to thoroughly clean all locomotive wheels AND all rolling stock wheels periodically. [...or exactly what Bob suggested.]
So you have cleaned the rails and the rolling stock/locomotive wheels...now what? The more you run your trains the less corrosion [deposit] will be built up (unfortunately this only works to a point). Secondly, the elimination of dust/pollutants/pollen/oils will keep the tracks clean longer. This can be accomplished via a ceiling in a basement area or some type of static precipitator in the train room. I should mention there is some evidence that metal wheelsets seem to cause less deposits than plastic units (...may have something to do with electrical attractive charges in plastic...there is no hard science on this however).
Use of a product, such as No-Ox, is recommended. In fact, I suggest you go to the No-Ox website for a further discussion of the use of their product in model railroading (No-Ox is well known in the electrical contracting business). No-Ox doesn't clean track (you have to do that), it 'seals' the surface yet is conductive - prolonging the need for track cleaning.
I guess the best thing you can do is more research. 'Google' cleaning model railroad track and read what others have to say. Please keep in mind that a majority of the advice (on track cleaning) is anecdotal in nature and has little, to no, basis in science.
So Col I guess I answered/didn't answer your question. I run a Brite-Boy over my track weekly (the Monks' Island Railway is a mini layout so that isn't a big problem). The wheels on my GE 45 Ton locomotive are cleaned every other week (by running over a ACT 6006 soaked paper towel). Bob is much more prudent about cleaning the wheels of his rolling stock than I. I usually do this (dreaded) task once a year. Because I have a small layout, and clean the rails frequently, I don't use No-Ox.
There you have it. Let's see what the other posters have to offer. Remember: do your own research and check on the science behind their method.
Regards,
Ray
Signalman:
Copied below is my track cleaning method posted on another forum. Hope its helpful. And as a preamble, as mentioned above, it will be impossible to keep your rails clean if your locos and cars have dirty wheels - best to clean them first (and note below how often I check/clean my train wheels). Given that you have clean wheels - here it is.
I've almost continuously (at least every other day) operated my HO layout for about 18 years now - 4 loops with trains of 30 to 70 cars per loop. And when I have all 4 trains running at the same time there is usually about 225 cars in motion; of these cars 85% have plastic wheels and 15% have metal wheels. That being said I've never used a Brite Boy, cleaning pad, masonite pad, cleaning car, etc. on any of the track --- ever.
As info the track is all Atlas nickle silver (NS) code 100 flex track, the crossing diamonds are Atlas Code 100 NS, and the turnouts are all 20+ year old Model Power #4s with NS rail.
So how do I keep my tracks clean? Using an applicator with a needle the size of a very small hypodermic syringe I put 1 to 2 drops of Wahl hair clipper oil (get it at your barber shop; lasts years) on every 50' of rail about every 6 to 12 months. When I see some light gray (oil/dirt mix) streaks on top of the rails, I take a tightly-woven rag (I get the material at Walmart and cut them to size) and with two of my fingers run the rag over the tops of the rails - cleans them right up. Then depending on how the rails look I might add a drop or two of oil or wait another few months. That's it!
Some details:
Does the oil cause the engines to loose traction or other problems? No --- except ONE time about 14 years ago I had a "brilliant idea". "Well, if one or two drops on each rail (per 50' of track) is good, let's try 4 drops." Big mistake; it acted like insululation for the locos' electical pickup through the wheels. Lesson learned, and then I fixed the error by cleaning the track by wiping it with a rag over my two fingers. Simple.
By the way, when I clean the track I just follow the train's caboose around. And if I once in a while let the oil go a little too long (some of the gray stuff is a little dried out and a touch sticky), I put oil on the rag and wipe the rail tops. The new oil softens the gray stuff (oil/crud mix) which then wipes off easily, and then I wipe the tops of the rails with a dry rag (otherwise there would be too much oil on the tracks.)
How often have I cleaned my metal locomotive wheels? In 18 years, never.
How often do I clean my plastic wheels? Answer: Roughly about every 7 years (yes, 7 years is correct), and even then only about 20% of the cars need it. AND what little crud there is on the wheels of these 20% is soft (it's a dirt and oil mix, and easily falls right off by scraping it lightly with a small flat-tip screw driver) - the crud's not dried out and hard.
Lastly, you might in time get to the point I'm now at (I'm 64 and been model railroading for 50 years). This may sound a little strange but when I run the long (65- to 70-car) trains alot with the same or similar engines, I can often tell when the rails need oiling - I can hear and see the engines working harder (less oil on the rails means more wheel/rail interface friction.) And that is confirmed after I oil the rails by seeing the engines running a little faster at the same power pack setting and with a little less motor noise.
K487
K (and others)-
I have a hunch that the need for cleaning track is determined by many factors, only a few of which we ever discuss.
The most popular defendant seems to be plastic wheels. While my experience parallels others', and I do agree that plastic wheels are a significant problem, I also think they get more discredit for dirty track than they have earned. Our train rooms, particularly those with unfinished walls and especially unfinished ceilings are sometimes mentioned, and appropriately so. The same dust and spider droppings that land on our freight platforms also hit our rails where any passing wheels will compact them into rail crud, the technical term for the substance which impedes electrical conductivity and increases the coefficient of friction between rails and wheels. Add the consequent accumulation on those wheels (i.e., rail crud) and it's easy to see how impaired conductance and more friction interfere with operations. But that's still not the whole story.
How about a basement (usually) layout which shares its space with an imprecisely adjusted furnace or water heater? Minute quantities of vaporized fuel oil in the air will surely gunk up our layouts as much as dust, static electricity and bugs. Or maybe there's a gas furnace which backdrafts once in a while when an outside door opens or someone turns on a bathroom fan upstairs. The sulfur in the gas or its exhaust aren't going to do anything to slow the normal oxidation of our rails, especially if we're using brass. And how about that old devil that makes all of us creakier and grumpier: tincture of time? Let's be realistic. Time (age) affects everything from how long our milk stays fresh in the fridge to how bad the arthritis in my football knee hurts to how high Mt. Everest is. And you'll notice that just about all of the effects of time are negative (some wine, cheese and special women excepted). Why would it be any different for our model railroads? What about the poor mope who has both an oil furnace and a gas water heater in his basement?
Or take the case of the fellow with a layout in part of his garage. How do you spell automobile exhaust, climate changes and exposure to unfiltered air pollution? So maybe he moves that garage layout to the attic. Well, he'll escape the auto exhaust but he'll still have air pollution -- stagnant air pollution at that -- and even more dramatic temperature differentials to twist his layout. And any air pollution problems will be amplified by high attic temperatures for most of the year. A general rule of thumb is that most chemical reactions double in speed with every ten degrees temperature increase, and winter's slower reactions won't make up the difference because sun on the roof is a factor for much of the year and can raise attic temps beyond ambient air temps while winter's effects are reduced by heat coming up from the house, sun and the fact that the attic temp can never be made lower than the ambient temperature.
And then there are the effects of aerosol products, cooking vapors, fireplace smoke, human respiration, pets and the things which children get into and tend to deposit as they move through the world. Plus a little ozone from a sparking motor or turnout coil, and the sweat, body oil and cerumen deposited by model railroaders ourselves doesn't do anything good, either.
Some of these factors can be controlled, others, not. My point, I guess, is that lots of things go into causing track cleanliness problems, not just plastic wheels or the use (or lack of use) of Wahl oil. We do our best to minimize the harmful effects we can, but some are uncontrollable from a practical standpoint, and others act differently on different layouts due to a multitude of factors beginning with where the layout is located to whether the ceiling is finished to who knows what.
-- D
I give K487's method two thumbs up. Using a similar routine which includes oiling the rails has worked on my various layouts, indoors and out and in various scales and gauges since the 1960's. I believe that Ray hit it right on the head when he said that wheel arcing has a lot to do with the problem. And I believe that is why oil works - it suppresses wheel arcing when the wheels roll over a bit of dust.
But not just any oil will do the job. What you need is a very light, non-oxidizing oil that is compatible with plastics. Light oil is thin enough to be almost completely squeezed out from between the wheels and rails so that you lose very little if any traction and lose virtually no electrical conduction. Oils which can oxidize will form a nice, non-conductive layer of varnish on top of your rails which is the last thing you want. Non-oxidizing oils will not do this. And compatibility with plastics is important if you have certain types of plastic wheels. Wheels made of ABS slowly decompose in many oils and leave a black coating on the rails but are okay in plastic compatible oils. Delrin, a form of Nylon, can survive all common forms of oil as can metal wheels. Problem is, the type of plastic used in a particular wheel is not immediately obvious. After running on oiled rails for a while, you may find some of your plastic wheels build up large amounts of dirt while others seem to gather very little. Generally, the ones building up all the dirt are ABS or related plastics or possibly Styrene. The ones that pick up very little dirt (and often shed that dirt by themselves) are usually Delrin or similar.
Wahl hair clipper oil is a light, non-oxidizing oil that is compatible with all the types of plastics Wahl has ever used in their hair clippers. There is some evidence that it may not be compatible with ABS plastic, but if you ever had ABS wheels, you have probably long since replaced them with Delrin and metal anyway. If you still have some left on some old train set cars, they will let you know.
Oils like 3-in-1 and motor oil are too heavy for H0 and probably other gauges as well. Even small amounts are enough to cause loss of traction and interfere with electrical conduction. And WD-40? Keep in mind that WD stands for "Water Displacer" and not "oil." If you have wet tracks on your indoor layout, I am afraid you should be worrying about more than just track oil.
Then there are the hobby oils that are listed as "conductive" as well as plastic compatible. Non-oxidizing goes without saying in these high class oils. They are highly refined natural oils or synthetics. I have tried a number of these over the years and they all seem to do well at keeping the rails clean and improving conductivity between rails and wheels. The one I am using now on my H0 and 0n30 layouts is Bachmann's E-Z Lube Conductive Lubricant. I started using it on my 0n30 because of a steep helix where I did not want to lose any traction and some quick tests showed somewhat better traction with the extremely thin E-Z Lube product. It got a good testing a couple of weeks ago when I had the layout at a train show for two days. Track cleaning consisted of running my fingers over all the rails to knock off the dust from being stored in my woodworking shop. Then I used one drop of the E-Z Lube Conductive Lubricant on each locomotive and tender wheel of a 2-6-0 and ran it around the layout half a dozen or so times. Finally, I hooked on a couple of coaches and ran that train for two full days without any attention beyond shutting it off overnight. No stalls. No failures to throw the automatic reverse modules, and through them, the two turnouts that allow this loop-to-loop single tack dog bone layout to work. And it was only toward the end of the show that I realized that I had never cleaned a section of "new" track that I had installed just before taking the layout to the show. This would not have been remarkable with brand new nickel-silver flex track. But this was a piece of old, fiber tied, brass flex track that hadn't seen a wheel in over half a century. I keep wondering if the previous user of this track, now long dead, also knew about the advantages of oil.
Bottom line, do try some oil. But as K487 pointed out, keep firmly in mind that while a little bit is good, a bit more can spell disaster.
Jim
Good advice here!
My model railroad (N scale) is in a finished basement with sheet rock walls and suspended tile ceiling, and carpeted floor. The house uses electric heat, but my railroad shares a room with a gas water heater, and there is a washer and electric drier in the next room.
I don't have a lot of trouble with dirty track. When I am actually running the railroad, I run one of those small tower-shaped air purifiers.
My track doesn't normally get dirty. I do oil it every few months, using the methods stated above. I have heard of people using automatic transmission fluid and a product called "Rail Zip", which I suspect are pretty much the same thing. I bought a small bottle of Rail Zip about twenty years ago, and still have most of it.
I've found something I like better. The problem with the automatic transmission fluid and Rail Zip is they are both dyed red. While I used it in small amounts, I really didn't like the idea of using a dyed fluid on my scenicked layout.
The product I like to use is Mag 1 brand power steering fluid. Power steering fluid is chemically much like automatic transmission fluid. They are both used in devices with plastic parts and seals that could be damaged by petroleum oil. I think they are actually based on vegetable oil. Automatic transmission fluid can actually be used in place of power steering fluid in your car in a pinch.
Many brands of power steering fluid are dyed red, like automatic transmission fluid. I think they are dyed to help identify leaks.
But Mag 1 power steering fluid is clear. There is no dye to mess up your ballast.
Unless you are familiar with the brand you are using, there really is no way to tell what color your power steering fluid is short of buying a quart and opening it up. But if you buy Mag 1 you will be getting clear fluid.
Your mileage may vary depending on driving conditions.
Les
All:
You know, it seems to me that this 7-post thread on clean track and wheels should be "required reading" for every newbe and most other model railroaders (along with an insightful thread on track-cleaning cars). With all of the excellent experience and analysis contained herein every reader would have a running start and could make up his own mind on which direction to go, but keeping an open mind for changing part or all of a method depending on results. I will admit I like my method because it is time-tested, involves the least work (at least for me - I'm lazy), is very inexpensive, and produces excellent results. And Jim, thank you for the two thumbs up.
While my layout has always been in indoor rooms with airconditioning (I forgot to say this in my post above), I do get dust but no mold or rust or particulates from combustion. And it's valuable to at least understand from Doneldon's post that certain locations in houses/buildings can have one or more track/wheels issues due to particular conditions. Knowing this can aid in addressing them AND at least with this issue (clean track and wheels) help make running model trains fun and a pleasure instead a constant "frustration city."
K487
Not to put too fine a point on this discussion BUT...I see a lot of anecdotal experience and little-to-no science. Yes, Wahl clipper oil has been touted for years; but is there any scientific testing that proves its effectiveness? The same could be said for automatic transmission [et. al.] oils.
What I have said - am saying - is that because such-and-such product has worked for you over the past 20 years does not mean that other contributing factors were not [also] the true initiators of improvement. Unless one has a control, and a variable, and each is tested under the same rigorous objective procedures, then all we are discussing are subjective results. The notion that a particular product/procedure worked for x-number of modelers doesn't mean anything...most of the people, on Earth, thought it was flat for thousands of years (news flash: they were wrong).
On the other hand: What has worked for you is fine as long as you are pleased with the results. I take exception with a method that seems to be touted as fact when in actually it is just experienced behavior.
Disagree? Fine...design an experiment, post your procedure here, allow others to find the flaws (if any) and give us your results. Said experiment should be repeatable by any of the other posters...thus proving the results you found are valid. That gentlemen is how science works.
Ray
Notice none of the above posters said anything about using any abrasives such as bright boy, scotch bright, or railroad cleaning cars. I have never used any abrasives on my track and I have some brass but mostly 90% ns. I have Bachmann EZ track for my subway and it's both ns and steel (22" curves). I run DCC which is more sensitive to dirty track and wheels. I have replaced most of my rolling stock with metal wheels, but still have plastic wheels on some. My layout has been up for 7 years and still growing 11'X17'. I have cleaned my track maybe 4 times in 7 years using Flitz metal polish and occasionally I do use 91% alcohol both the alcohol and Flitz are applied with soft cloth cleaning rags from old t shirts or flannel shirts. I use the alcohol maybe every 3 months. There are areas I cannot reach in mountain areas up to 5', and girder covered bridge's up to 3' long that have never been cleaned except when I closed the mountain tops, I do have some excess but can't reach it all, no problems though. I too use a tiny bit of oil on my track, it's singer sewing machine oil applied with a soft cloth to rails at a rate of about 2 drops per 10 feet of track and only maybe 4 times in 7 years also. And like the above posters I also clean my wheels when needed and again maybe 4 times in 7 years. And I do have plastic wheels on a few of my cars. The only proven method I use is similar to the above posters but again I will not apply abrasives of any kind to my track. Jim
Rangerover - I hate to burst your bubble, but Flitz is composed of aluminum oxide (among other things)...which is considered an abrasive (albeit a mild one). You can check out the MSDS sheet on the product yourself at http://www.flitz.com/images/document/MSDS%20-%20Flitz%20Metal%20Plastic%20Fiberglass%20Polish-Paste_16pt.pdf (http://www.flitz.com/images/document/MSDS%20-%20Flitz%20Metal%20Plastic%20Fiberglass%20Polish-Paste_16pt.pdf)
If you wear eyeglasses try polishing the lenses with Flitz.
Ray
Quote from: CNE Runner on April 02, 2012, 03:37:54 PM
Rangerover - I hate to burst your bubble, but Flitz is composed of aluminum oxide (among other things)...which is considered an abrasive (albeit a mild one).
Ray-
Yes, aluminum oxide
is an abrasive but its abrasiveness, as with all abrasives, is a function of how it's made and how course or fine the Al
2O
3 granules are made, not just because it is Al
2O
3. It is neither inherantly mild nor strong. This is quite a hard substance which is why it is used as an abrasive and why it lasts so long. In my experience, the finer grades of Al
3O
2 retain their effectiveness longer than similar grits of sandpaper, garnet paper or even Tri-M-ite.
-- D
Don - I see your point regarding particulate size of aluminum oxide and its abrasive properties. Good point.
Rangerover and all - I have reread my posts and am dismayed at the 'tone' of my responses. I apologize if I have caused any aggravation; as that was not my intent. Please allow me to chalk it up to working too long in the hot Alabama sun. This is an excellent forum - fulled with knowledgeable folks who truly want to help. I will endeavor to keep the same standards.
Ray
Ray I understand your post and I don't see the "tone" as attacking anybody. Like you said:
"This is an excellent forum - fulled with knowledgeable folks who truly want to help. I will endeavor to keep the same standards."
I think most all feel the same way. I've received tons of useful information on this site in the past 7 years. Talking about what we do to make our pikes run trouble free and easier ways to do it by finding out what others are doing. Experiencing situations and problem solving from our own experiences and telling others. I've never learned anything from my attributes or things that come natural, but I've learned a great deal from my failures and wrong decisions I made throughout my life.
This dirty track issue has been around a long time, forever, I suppose. I remember it back in the 50's when I too was a youngster, and as I got older and NS hit the market, the same problem still exists. My theories are sometimes far fetched, but I would like to explain my true thoughts. Metal wheels are scratching the rails, no matter, on curves and I'm sure even on straight runs the wheels are spinning and slide from side to side, it doesn't take much for this action to scratch the rails.
I used to think and still have reservations about being right about plastic wheels doing the same action as metal when we run our trains. But the strange issue I have is how come there is so much gunk accumulated on them, my theory is that it's actually picking up the gunk made up of various particulates especially metallic and they , the metallic particulates are attracted to the plastic via charged electrically static magnetic force. I no longer think the plastic wheels are so evil, on the contrary, I believe now they aid in keeping my track clean by picking up the gunk. When I clean them the gunk sort of stays together, like a solid compacted ring and peels off. That's another reason it's important for me to clean wheels as opposed to track more often than the track itself, so I have plastic wheels on a few cars for each train. It seems to be working out OK for me!
Another thing that occurs when we operate our trains is the force of metal to metal is "work hardened" where the metal becomes hard and forms tiny microscopic cracks. I don't thank it would be an issue with model railroading, but I do consider it sometimes. I worked in a wire drawing facility for a few years, I'm not a metallurgist, by no means, but do have some knowledge of what happens to metal if not properly maintained.
I'm sure most if not all, will disagree with my theory and it's OK! Just my thoughts and what I do seems to be working! Jim
Ray,
I didn't think your replies were snarky, either. After all, it's just a hobby. If I have a problem and someone suggests a fix that sounds as if it might work, I'm apt to try it. If it doesn't work for me, I'll just try something else.
Rover,
I suspect dirty track has been a problem since the first model train moved under track-supplied power. My first model train layouts were built in HO using brass track. That took frequent cleaning, but worked OK if kept clean. Back then, flex track was made with cardboard ties!
I prefer metal wheels to plastic ones. I think they track better. But plastic wheels can perform OK. They are easier to clean than metal wheels: I rotate them by hand while applying pressure to the wheel tread with a little flat screwdriver. The crud peels right off.
Les
Thanks for the comments Desertdweller and Rangerover...'much appreciated. [Always keep your words sweet as you may have to eat them.]
Rangerover: Using plastic wheels to remove the 'crud' from the rails...that is so crazy it must have merit. If I understand your post correctly, you mix in a couple of cars having plastic wheels to do the deed? Interesting.
Desertdweller: Ah, brass rail with fiber ties...that were stapled to each other. Atlas Snap turnouts (although we called them 'switches' in those days) that would trim your fingernails if you weren't careful. Long rows of Atlas Snap controllers to work all these 'switches' and the every popular Snap reverse controller. Oh, one more: Athearn Hi-F drive ((twin motor shafts (connected to the 'drive shafts' with a piece of rubber-like material that aged, grew stiff, and either broke or slipped) that were themselves connected to the axles via small rubber bands....that also slipped)). Those were the days my friend...
Ray
i remember fibre tie track as well. don't try to ballast it, the glue would warp the ties and pull the rails out of guage.
interesting that, as bad as brass rail was, i don't remember having to clean it as much as i clean my track now. the biggest difference is that dcc has made clean track imperative. before, you could get away with alot of things because dc locomotives operate off a voltage, not a digital signal.
other things we no longer have to deal with: pancake motors, or any other motor geared directly to the wheels without reduction. 3 pole motors more appropriate for slot cars than trains. traction tires. truck mounted horn hook couplers.
but, even with the problems we had fun with our trains. and back then it was an inter generational thing. you ran trains with your dad and grandfather.....
Oh yes. Cardboard flex track and switches! Yes, they will indeed warp if they get wet. But, I can't recall ever reading a caution about mixing cardboard ties with bonded ballast.
And Athern rubber-band drive! At least, the parts mentioned could be replaced without requiring use of specialized model railroad parts. The flexible coupling could be replaced with auto windshield washer tubing.
The rubber bands themselves, as I recall, were actually a standard size commonly found around the house (look in the kitchen "junk drawer").
It had a few real advantages. It was quiet (no gears equal no gear noise). And it was smooth. And, going downhill, your train could actually pick up speed even if you shut down the throttle. And, it produced smooth starts and stops (power could be transmitted back through the drive train, as there was no worm). And, it allowed the loco to run compatibly with any geared loco: no mismatched gear ratios fighting each other.
A few thing I don't miss: powerpacks that got hot because they used rheostats. Powerpacks that hummed and buzzed annoyingly. Diesel locomotives that bounced from out-of-round traction tires. Diesels that needed traction tires because they drove through only one truck. Headlight bulbs that got hot enough to deform body shells. Couplers that look like big hooks. Passenger cars with no interiors. Only a few building kits available, so everyone's model railroad has the same depot, water tank, lumber yard, etc. Model paint that eats your model. Shiny green grass that looks like someone dumped a can of green enamel into a barrel of sawdust (because that is what it is and how it was made). Plaster scenery that weighs a ton. Car forwarding systems that involve thumbtacks stuck in the roofs of freight cars (no kidding!).
Oh, those were the days! (Cue Edith and Archie Bunker at the piano.)
Les
What a walk down memory lane. I used to use wet/dry sandpaper to clean that brass track...and you're right - I don't remember cleaning it all that often. For grassy areas (those that didn't get the green paint treatment) remember those 'grass mats' that looked like the early indoor/outdoor carpeting? How about the use of bird cage gravel as ballast?
Desertdweller - Oh my gosh...similar buildings on all layouts...yes, yes! I remember building Revell's Mainline Station ('still available on eBay). The kit came with gray people...yep, they stayed gray. Since I built "The HO Model Railroad That Grows" I wanted to copy the layout as exactly as I could (definite lack of originality). The layout featured the Black Bart Mine structure. My grandmother bought me the kit (there was no way an apple farmer's kid could afford such a luxury). The kit came and was brass. Luckily my dad had been a machinist and helped me assemble/solder the kit together...'wish I still had it. BTW: Those Hi-F drive equipped locomotives may have gone downhill well; but they sure didn't go up the hill very well.
Ray
PS: Boy, we have definitely 'hijacked' this thread...but it is great to reminisce.
Ray,
Bird gravel for track ballast: I'd forgotten that trick! Reminded me of a tip I had read when I was a little kid.
Dry out your used coffee grounds and use them for cinder ballast.
My folks let me try that one. Dump your coffee grounds into a pan lined with newspaper and let them dry in the sun. Then glue them to your roadbed using white glue. I'm sure this would be a disaster on cardboard tie HO track, but it worked OK on my steel Lionel O-27 track.
Many years later, I read that this practice can attract bugs, but I had no problem like that. And, it smelled good.
I remember cleaning that Lionel track, but it never occurred to me to clean the wheels, too.
Back then, people ballasted even cardboard tie track. A lot of people used Tru-Scale milled wood roadbed. This stuff was bare, sanded wood. It had to be painted and ballasted. You could ballast the stuff before you put the track on, but I don't recall that being done. Might make it difficult to get smooth track that way.
Or you could mix powdered dry glue into the ballast, and apply water to the track after spreading the ballast.
Maybe if you used a bunch of track gauges as tie bars you could hold the track in gauge while the ties warped.
Or, you could glue the ballast and the track down at the same time, using a non-water based glue like rubber cement. Better get it right the first time, and plan on making a mess.
The most creative solution I remember was to paper your roadbed with coarse sandpaper before nailing the track down. That wound up looking like what it was.
Track cleaning cars have been around forever. These, in my experience, are not very effective. They are usually pretty expensive for what you get, and not particularly effective. They also tend to hang up on switches, especially in hard-to-reach places.
Going back to the depot kits: I recall only two that were widely available. A Revell model of a C&NW station that had a pretty roof with a curved dormer, and an Atlas model with small peaked dormers. The Atlas model had a separate passenger platform with roof that could either extend the platform on the station, or be used opposite the station. It's a good thing they were so attractive, because everybody had them.
I enjoyed your comment on the brass mine kit. Once I "inherited" (from a dissolving model railroad club) an unbuilt corrugated steel roundhouse kit. Problem was, it was actually made out of corrugated steel sheets and stampings!
When I attempted to build this nightmare, I soon found why no one had done so before me. I can do a fairly good job of soldering, I used to work soldering all day in an electronics factory. But this stuff shed solder like wax paper sheds water! It wound up in the trash can. (Imagine an Erector Set that does not assemble with bolts and nuts. You have to solder all the pieces together.)
Les
tru scale was expensive, but i have never found a better base for handlaid track. i wish they still made it.
Dd-
The biggest risk with coffee grounds is that they could mold. I suppose that would be okay if the mold would confine itself to isolated colonies of penicillin (green clumps) but that's not the way it worked. I remember one fellow whose mainline looked like it was laid in a field of moss. Maybe a little Lysol mixed in would keep it from getting moldy.
Ah, Tru-Scale. You could buy it RTR, if you were rolling in dough, or as milled but otherwise bare wood. For those of you who have no idea what we're talking about, Tru-Scale roadbed was softwood milled to the contour of roadbed. You could lay your track directly on it, much like we use cork today. BUT, Tru-Scale also made a deluxe version which had ties milled into the top of the roadbed, too. These had simulated fishplates so it actually held rail in a pretty good approximation of gauge even without a rail gauge. (Only idiots, however, trusted only the roadbed for gauge.) The ties were stained with a thinned creosote material, just like 12":1' railroads and Tru-Scale sold a gray paint with course sand in it which was supposed to simulate ballast. You could stain the ties and paint the roadbed before installing the rail because the sand was small enough that it was below the tops of the ties so it didn't interfere with the rail. One problem was that you had to constantly stir the ballast paint because the sand would quickly settle to the bottom. I still have a small can of the ballast paint that I hope will be needed on some future project. It might work pretty well for a roof.
I took a piece of bare roadbed and ties Tru-Scale track to a train show last weekend and I could tell how long people had been model rails by whether they recognized it. Forty-five to 50 years seemed to be about the point where recognition happened, dating both me and some of the visitors to my booth. Thanks for an opportunity to saunter down memory lane.
-- D
I had forgotten about Tru-Scale. We had a neighbor, who was a model railroader (and the person that 'weaned' me away from tinplate and into HO), who used Tru-Scale roadbed exclusively on his layout. The problem was the extreme cost of the stuff (I was an apple farmer's kid and he was an I.B.M. engineer). The only drawback I remember was that it was basically 'set track' in that you had to use their curves.
On a related subject (since we have gotten seriously away from this thread's original topic...not that I'm complaining): I think I will 'plunk down' the $200 for that Model Railroader DVD of all past issues...what a walk down memory lane that would be!
Ray
using tru scale's curves wasn't much of a problem. they made every even numbered radius from about 14" up to 48"
the biggest advantage was that unlike cork roadbed, it tended to strengthen your subroadbed, and minimize any imperfections. and for handlaid track, nothing holds spikes better than wood roadbed.
as mentioned previously, there were 3 basic types of tru scale. the most expensive had the track already on it. a second option had just the ties, milled into the wood. you supplied the rail. the third and cheapest option was plain roadbed, that could be used with any kind of track. this is what my dad and i used for many years.
it would be possible to make a similar base for track out of common moulding strips, but you'd have alot of cutting and shaping to do.
It has just 'dawned' on me that Tru-Scale's top end track (i.e. rails + ties + roadbed) might be considered a forerunner of today's EZtrack (et. al.). I guess the major difference today is the cost of manufacture (plastic vs milled wood). "What goes around...comes around."
Ray
Back to the original post....
I was just in the hobby shop yesterday and noticed Woodland Scenics has a nice kit available for track cleaning and also a loco and rolling stock wheel cleaning track. Has any one tried the wheel cleaning track?
I never even asked the cost, should have, but I can bet it's pricey. Great if it works.
Jerry
i saw that the other day as well. it was about $35 where i saw it. less than the price of a good track cleaning car.
First, about brake fluid: beware that some varieties are hygroscopic. They absorb water, including from the air around them.
Secondly, in the six years I ran my layout, it sat...a LOT! I never had to clean it. Ever. Forced air furnace, carpets, pet, laundry in the same room with shaken towels and sheets, etc. Ever. I did have some touchy contacts at points, but a gentle wipe with 600 grit paper always seemed to clear the problem. I have a Bright Boy, but why would I use it in view of my claims just now?
I was about the decommission my layout, so last fall I placed a few drops of Castrol Dextron III Mercon ATF here and there. I actually was pretty liberal with the stuff, making sure there was enough for the train to distribute. Result? Didn't hurt. Didn't seem to improve anything because............everything was doing fine anyway.
I think running metal wheels, cleanish ones, is about the best thing you can do for your track. I dunno why I think that because.............I never had problems in the first place. Rails sat for weeks at a time. With laundry nearby.
Oh-boy-oh-boy-oh-boy!
Just had to say, guys, how much I've just enjoyed reading those reminiscing posts!
Ray! You actually built "The HO Model Railroad that Grows"?!?! Awesome! I have that book in my library. From time to time, it's fun to pull it off the shelf and look at the pictures to see what things were like 50 years ago--which was just the beginning of my time.
And to notice the Plasticville buildings that are still available! :D
Hey Jeff - Yep, my dad, and I, built the Great Northern Pacific (a.k.a. "The HO Model Railroad that Grows") in the late 1950s. We faithfully followed the book - although we didn't start at the beginning and then gradually work to the finished product...rather we started much later in the process. Before cars (and girls) entered the scene, we had built most of the folding yard as well.
The GNP was a wonderful layout to start - and dad and I had many hours of enjoyable operation (well, as enjoyable as it was with poorly running locomotives and less-than-perfect rolling stock). I would love to see Model Railroader's staff either: 1) remake the old original layout or 2) update the original layout with newer scenic techniques [such as a scenic divider etc.].
I can't tell you how many times I reread that book each year. It is a marvel that anyone could have followed the directions as they were written. [If you have a copy of this 'book' read Stage 7: A Good Control Panel and see if you can follow the directions.] Occasionally I will bring my copy of the "HO Model Railroad that Grows" to train shows and display it on our tables (with a "Not for Sale" sign). I am amazed at how many of us 'senior' model railroaders were either familiar with the layout; or had constructed at least a portion of the project.
Yes, virtually all the buildings are still available. The Black Bart Mine was a metal product of Suydam (now Alpine Models); and has been reissued as a matte board kit by the same company.
Ah...those were the days.
Ray
"The HO Model Railroad that Grows" was a wonderful concept. I remember that book: I would study it and wish I had the room to build it.
Another choice book from that era was "101 Track Plans". That was even better: it had every size railroad from the very most basic to the very complex. I loved the names given the railroads: the simplest was, appropriately, the "Stockton and Darlington". Others I recall were the "Long Guyland Railroad", and the Snaxsys and Phrax".
There was a track plan from MR back then that inspired me for my present model railroad. It was called "Class One for One Man".
I got a plan from the old "Railroad Modeler" magazine that was the basis for a railroad that lasted me from 1979 to 2007: "The Winter Park Regional Railroad" by David Winter. If you are reading this, David, many thanks!
I never had a problem with mold growing on my Lionel railroad with the coffee ground ballast. It would have been realistic in a sense: I remember running trains on trackage where the ties were hidden in the grass. And on some sidings where the rails were hidden, too.
If the mold would sprout some stalks, it might create a demand for operating weed mowers!
It was a hallmark of the 1950's to have the operators removed from the vicinity of the trains, with huge complex control panels inspired as much by science fiction as by CTC boards. I remember operating as a guest on the big HO railroad located in the old Fred Harvey Lunchroom of the Colorado Springs Santa Fe station. This room held a huge, U-shaped lunch counter that became the support for an enormous model railroad. Both standard and narrow gauge, and it had one of those giant mountains with multiple tunnels.
The operators stood on a raised dais at the rear of the layout, with multiple control stations. Block wiring was used with big rotary switches. It was pretty impressive, and fun to run.
The "Good Control Panel", while incomprehensible, was intreging. It did look good. The problem with this sort of thing was that, if you had a lot of tracks and switches, the control panel could rival the size of the layout. And the electrical switches involved generally where hard to find unless one lived in a city with a supply house for low-voltage electrical components. I suppose, in the 1950's, there would be a lot of war-surplus switches available if you knew what to ask for.
What I have a hard time understanding was that there was a universally available and affordable source of the needed switch controls and block switches. Atlas has been making these since the fourth century BC.
They are designed to be ganged together to provide switch operation and block selection in a compact area.
The magazines certainly are not abashed about featuring their advertisers' products these days, but these products were not usually referred to by name "back in the day". Fortunately, Atlas also was a publisher of these type of books, and showed how to use their electrical components in the layouts described.
My present model railroad uses Atlas electrical switches, except for the E-Z Track switch controllers, which are Bachmann. They are absolutely dependable. My power system is regular DC. While I did have a lot of Atlas Selectors (DPDT switches) to buy, and a lot of wires to run, neither are expensive. The resulting system is easy to understand and troubleshoot, durable, and I don't have to buy or retrofit my locomotives for DCC operation.
I'm happy to see "Black Bart" is still available, and, now being made of matte board, probably a lot more of the kits are actually being built.
I know this reply has nothing to do with track cleaning, but that's how it goes.
Les
Quote from: CNE Runner on April 11, 2012, 10:12:25 AM
Hey Jeff - Yep, my dad, and I, built the Great Northern Pacific (a.k.a. "The HO Model Railroad that Grows") in the late 1950s. We faithfully followed the book - although we didn't start at the beginning and then gradually work to the finished product...rather we started much later in the process. Before cars (and girls) entered the scene, we had built most of the folding yard as well.
The GNP was a wonderful layout to start - and dad and I had many hours of enjoyable operation (well, as enjoyable as it was with poorly running locomotives and less-than-perfect rolling stock).
I'll bet that was a wonderful thing for you and your dad to do together. :)
QuoteI would love to see Model Railroader's staff either: 1) remake the old original layout or 2) update the original layout with newer scenic techniques [such as a scenic divider etc.].
Now, there's an interesting idea. I'd like to see that, too. I bet it would make for a fun article, rebuilding a "classic" from the early days of HO with modern scenery techniques and DCC.
Are you listening
Model Railroader staff? ;D
QuoteI can't tell you how many times I reread that book each year.
Tell you what, it's kind of a relief to know that I'm not the only one who does that! :D
Desertdweller - What a well worded post you provided. I remember my dad spending hours wiring the 'yard section' of the "HO Model Railroad that Grows". I believe he was able to procure SPDT switches at a surplus supply house in Poughkeepsie, NY (the 'big city' near where we lived).
The Monks' Island Railway runs DC and is broken into several blocks. It would be an easy matter to convert it to DCC (put all the block switches in either the "A" or "B" position and substitute my MRC Prodigy Advanced control unit for the DC handheld throttles). For the foreseeable future, I choose to stay with DC.
Jeff - Kudos to you! What a fabulous idea for Model Railroader magazine to [once a year?] have a series of construction/updating articles for some of the popular layout designs of the late 1950s through the 1970s. [Why Kalmbach could come out with yet another book to sell.] My only concern with the "HO Model Railroad..." is its spaghetti bowl track design. It was the style (then) to 'squeeze' as much trackage into a design as possible...although with a scenic divider that may not be as apparent as the original.
As a confession, I must tell you all that I seriously considered building the "Ho Model Railroad..." before the Monks' Island Railway. Carl Arendt's [and others] genius got to me first and I went in another direction (mini layout). I do have to admit that there is a certain lure to the Great Northern Pacific Railroad...'trying to recapture my youth?
Regards,
Ray
Quote from: CNE Runner on April 12, 2012, 10:27:18 AM
Jeff - Kudos to you! What a fabulous idea for Model Railroader magazine to [once a year?] have a series of construction/updating articles for some of the popular layout designs of the late 1950s through the 1970s. [Why Kalmbach could come out with yet another book to sell.] My only concern with the "HO Model Railroad..." is its spaghetti bowl track design. It was the style (then) to 'squeeze' as much trackage into a design as possible...although with a scenic divider that may not be as apparent as the original.
Why, thank you, Ray! Maybe I should write/e-mail the MR people with that suggestion. I think your expansion of my thought to maybe a whole series (and eventual book) of "updated classics" is a great idea!
You know, I have the same thought as you do about the "spaghetti bowl" of trackage when I look at the pictures of the "late stages" of that plan. Personally I find the earlier stages, with more scenery/more town and less trackage, to be a more attractive layout. I think too much trackage in a small space only emphasizes the small size of a small layout.
QuoteAs a confession, I must tell you all that I seriously considered building the "Ho Model Railroad..." before the Monks' Island Railway. Carl Arendt's [and others] genius got to me first and I went in another direction (mini layout). I do have to admit that there is a certain lure to the Great Northern Pacific Railroad...'trying to recapture my youth?
Regards,
Ray
You bet there is! And I think I'm trying to recapture my youth every time I crack the throttle on one of my locomotives! :D
And why the current scenery on my present layout is mostly Plasticville buildings, some of which date to at least the Christmas of 1958 (my first!), when my mother and father used them for a "Christmas Village" that lacked a model train.
Jeff
What is this "recapture my youth" stuff? I started my first childhood almost 70 years ago and am still enjoying it.
When asked how I ever got into model railroading, my usual answer is that in my generation, many little boys got train sets for Christmas. The only difference was that they grew up.
Jim
Jim Banner we were lucky, we got to see Steam loco's in everyday use before diesel loco's. Funny I'm still fascinated by those huge monsters I gotta say my whole life too at 68. I know by the sound when they come in the yard here in Elkins, haven't heard or seen any in quite some time. Since last fall I guess! I live a mile away from the yard. Jim
Quote from: Jim Banner on April 15, 2012, 12:01:43 AM
What is this "recapture my youth" stuff? I started my first childhood almost 70 years ago and am still enjoying it.
When asked how I ever got into model railroading, my usual answer is that in my generation, many little boys got train sets for Christmas. The only difference was that they grew up.
Jim
I do hear tell that growing older is mandatory but growing up is optional. ;)
Jeff
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 15, 2012, 10:58:15 PM
I do hear tell that growing older is mandatory but growing up is optional. ;)
Jeff
Jeff, I hope you don't mind but I just stole that for my signature line.
Jim
Can I hop back in here?
I'm just a young feller at 63.
Got a Lionel 0-27 set in 1953, but started in HO in 1968. N-scale in 1978.
This morning I heard a commercial on the radio for something-or-other that was touting the joys of being retired. Some poor soul was bragging that he had so many things to worry about when he was working, but now that he is retired, his mind is perfectly blank when he wakes up. That won't be me. I've been retired for a year now, and have more stuff going on than when I was working.
I don't have anything more to say about track cleaning right now.
Maybe we should start an "Old Timers Reminiscing" thread?
Les
Hey all...I don't want this wonderful discussion to end. We have, however, hijacked the original intent of the original poster. With that in mind, I have started a reminiscing thread on the General Discussion board. I started with a post...how about joining in?
Ray
Quote from: Jim Banner on April 16, 2012, 03:00:36 PM
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 15, 2012, 10:58:15 PM
I do hear tell that growing older is mandatory but growing up is optional. ;)
Jeff
Jeff, I hope you don't mind but I just stole that for my signature line.
Jim
:D You're quite welcome to it. I do believe it's in the public domain. ;D
Jeff
Quote from: CNE Runner on April 01, 2012, 10:47:33 AM
Col
First a little chemistry: The black deposit on the top of the rails is nickel oxide (III). Recent studies have shown that this 'deposit' is comprised of a mixture of nickel oxide, dust, and other contaminants. Oddly, under microscopic observation, the 'deposit' is arranged in 'dots' or 'spots' and is not continuous. The current prevailing theory is that small amounts of 'dirt', on the locomotive wheels, causes arcing between the wheel and the rail surface (the 'dirt' effectively 'picks up' the wheel allowing it to lose contact momentarily with the rail surface) - speeding up the process of corrosion.
Interesting, I always thought that crud that built up on the rails, on the loco wheels, and on the rolling stock was 'disolved plastic material' from those cars running plasitic wheels....plastic abrasion against metal rails, helped along by a slight disolving action by all those different 'track cleaning solvents' we are being sold.
As I read a few other forums in addtion to this one, it does appear to be a rail oxidation problem, and applying something to help with this oxidation seems very worthwhile.
I was just this morning looking back thru some older mag articles and took note of this one pager titled "Polish those Railheads".
Decided to see if I could google it and see what else was out there. I ran across this discussion on this forum;
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/212742.aspx?sort=ASC&pi314=1
Quote from: Signalman on April 01, 2012, 08:05:07 AM
G'Day all. This time I am looking for a little help regarding cleaning of my HO track. At the moment I am building my layout, and laying tracks. In some areas, I have to lean across, and place my arms on some of the track. After a few days, my nickle silver track became very dull and grimy. I used one of those Peco tracking rubbers to clean the track of all the grime. The track came up nice and shiny, but I was astonished at the amount of grit that was in between the tracks. I took a length of flexi track, placed it on the bare layout table, and cleaned the rails with my Peco Track Cleaning Rubber. After cleaning this section of track, I tipped it on its side and tapped it on the table. I was shocked at the amount of shiny grit that was on the table from the rubber. I have decided to only use the rubber to remove spills of paint, glue, etc., that has fallen on the track. Any help with cleaning my track is much appreciated. I have purchased a bottle of Model Power, Track Cleaner, and a bottle of Rail-Zip. Both of these bottles have no instructions on how to use these liquids on my track. Can anyone help. I want something that I can wet a cloth with, and then rub the tracks to get off the grime on the rails. Any help would be much appreciated. Regards. Col.
my layout is currently under renovation . However, I converted to metal wheels 22 years ago and most of my electrical continueity vanished. I use a brite boy on my turnouts or areas whene I notice my headlights flickering. Rail Zip on my engines with brass wheels and that is about it. Phil