The following represents my personal experience. I am not an expert, but do like to experiment with things. Please keep this in mind as you go through this. It is long.
Over the last 6 or so years I have been working with Lithium-Ion Batteries. Early on the big scare was on about them blowing up, catching on fire, and all sorts of other dire warnings. I studied up on them at Battery University.com, with guy's who were using them on R/C cars and aircraft, and in correspondence with some of GRR friends in Germany who back then were having great success making their own battery packs. I also studied manufacturer's info and engineering sheets and found that some of them even had instructions on making battery packs. I decided to jump in and try it. Back then I made them using 18650 3.7 volt 1800 Mah or 1.8 Amp batteries from Hong Kong. There were printed circuit board (PCB) protection circuits which prevented the batteries from overcharging getting hot and rupturing or exploding. This board also protected the batteries from over discharging which would ruin the battery and prevent recharging. The boards also offered short circuit protection, which essentially shuts down the battery if the condition exists. Here is a link to one of these add on PCB's from all-battery.com
http://www.all-battery.com/ProtectionCircuitModulePCBfor4Cells14.8VLi-ionBattery-32118.aspx
Following the instructions with the PCB I built my first 14.8 Volt 1800 Mah battery pack using four cells. I used Tamiya connectors, but any connector will do. I always charge each cell individually up to full charge before building the pack. I learned that it took a very hot Iron to solder the connections to the batteries especially to the positive end. I hooked up my Tenergy Smart Charger, set it to the 14.8 volt position and waited for the batteries to blow up, or otherwise burn down my barn. To my joy it worked perfectly and during the charging period the battery pack remained cool to the touch. I made another one and used them in my Annies and Connies with great success. They are both still serviceable as I write this, proving to be far superior to my NMIH or NiCad batteries. The major (to me) pain of all this was all the soldering to the PCB and batteries. I mentioned my success on one of the major GRR forums and was promptly flamed to death about how it was impossible to do safely, and how NMIH technology was far superior! blah blah Etc. Etc. I was not discouraged and loved the low cost and good runtime using the home made packs.
Next All-battery.com came out with the 18650 Tenergy 3.7 volt 2200 Mah battery with a built in PCB in the negative end of each cell. I thought WOW! this would really reduce the amount of soldering necessary and greatly reduce the possibility of an error so I built two more packs using them. Here is a link to show a battery with the built in PCB. Care is necessary when soldering to avoid getting the negative end too hot and destroying the PCB.
http://www.all-battery.com/4pcsTenergyLi-Ion18650Cylindrical3.7V2200mAhRechargeableBatteriesWithTabs.aspx
These packs were such a success and so much better, that I got rid of my NMIH and NiCad packs altogether. I had so many inquiries I ended up doing a few clinics on making the packs, and got great raves from others who also had success. I was also flamed, beat up on, blah blah etc.etc. for doing these clinics and "endangering others". Things have changed since then and Lithium technology has become mainstream. To me the only real disadvantage of the lithium Ion batteries was that when the packs get down to the 2.5 volt threshold the undercharge circuit kicks in and shuts the battery down abruptly to prevent over discharge. This occurs without warning since the batteries perform so well there is no subtle slowing down noticeable like you get using NIMH or NiCad batteries. This would be bad news if it occurred in a long tunnel and you had to fish your loco out of it. This led to a desire for longer run time. When Tenergy came out with the 18650 2600 Mah cells I used them as well and loved the improved run time, especially noticeable over the older 1800 Mah cells. I have had one Tenergy 2600 mah pack fail due to one bad cell. It is a pain to troubleshoot because all the cells have to be disconnected to find the bad one. I do not know the cause, but it is possible I damaged it by dropping it, or had a PCB board fail.
A good friend who likes to run 4 F7's and an Alco PB (ABBBA) Pulling 13 heavy passenger cars was getting about an hour and 45 minutes run time using home made packs of 12 2600mah 3.7 volt cells connected in series to make a 14.8 volt 7800 Mah battery pack. He has grades of 3.5% He saw the GTL 3.7 volt 5300 Mah cells on Ebay and we bought some, thinking they did not have the internal PCB protection circuit. We were pleasantly surprised to find that they did have the built in PCB protection, and that they were the latest type with the PCB protection circuit enclosed within the case rather than added on the end like the Tenergy example above. At a price of $39 for twelve cells and no shipping I was amazed. You can make three 14.8 volt 5300 Mah packs for about $13 each including a connector. The Tenergy smart charger works fine with them. The run time is so good that I never run them down to a shut down using my Connies and Annies.
Here are the pictures of the printing on the side of the 5300 mah cells showing the information on the internal protection: Sorry about the poor quality, had to borrow a camera.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/Battery%20Pictures/Closeup1.jpg) (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/Battery%20Pictures/closeup2.jpg)
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/Battery%20Pictures/Closeup3.jpg)
Here is a home made "Square"5300 mah pack soldered and wrapped with electrical tape. It is made to go into a U25B from a top hatch on the loco. I'm too cheap to use expensive large shrink wrap when color electrical tape is cheap at Harbor Freight. I have also built them into the fuel tanks of a couple of GP-7's using an external charging jack. The second pic shows a "flat" one to fit under the coal load on Connies & Annies.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/Battery%20Pictures/5300MahBatteryPackforU25B.jpg)
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/Battery%20Pictures/Flatpackforsteamers.jpg)
Our testing so far indicates that the 5300 mah batteries are good quality and the protection circuits work like they are supposed to. We have only been using them for two months so time will tell if they hold up. Compared to the Tenergy Batteries the GTL's are more difficult to solder to the positive end. While I personally dislike trail cars with receivers & batteries these home made battery packs are just fine in trail cars as well.
These batteries are 18650 size and fit in commercially available battery holders (or boxes) which hold one to four cells. If you have room in your locos using these would totally eliminate the need to solder to the batteries. You would only need to solder on the connector of your choice pop the batteries in and go. This would be of great advantage if a cell failed. All you would need to do is take them out test them individually, replace the bad one and you are ready to go again. Here is the link for the battery boxes:
http://www.ledsupermall.com/diy-battery-box-for-4-18650-battery.html
I have not yet received mine and will post later about my experience with them.
Remember You MUST follow all safety rules and measures. I use a clear mask when soldering, wear a long sleeve shirt, and place the batteries in a ceramic bowl when charging. I also make sure ventilation is good. There are other rules I probably haven't mentioned. When engaging in these activities it is your responsibility to learn and follow all safety rules, procedures and instructions. I do not guarantee your results will be similar to mine or your safety. Soldering to the batteries will void any warranty.
Most of all have fun!!!
Bill
Hey Bill
Great write up on your experience with the batteries.
Can you give the link to the 5300 ma batteries as I can not find them
Thanks
Rodney
Thanks Rod,
Here is the latest link. Definitely a hard to beat price with free shipping.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12x-18650-GTL-Li-ion-5300mAh-3-7V-Rechargeable-Battery-LED-Torch-/160717846089?pt=US_Batteries&hash=item256b87b649
Be aware that some say they are not 5300 Mah, I have no way of proving if they are or not. I do know that I am getting great runtime out of them so far. If problems occur I will report them.
Bill
Bill,
Thanks for all the info! I have a few questions.
What size wire do you use to build the packs?
What amperage do you charge them at?
Do you run four cells alone, or multiple packs of four cells wired in parallel?
Thanks again very very informative!
Rick
Thanks Bill
I would guess that you are charging them as a pack as that is what I want to do.
I ordered 48 cells to try them cause that is a heck of a good price
Rodney
Hi Bill,
Nice of you to post all this, it's funny what you say about getting flammed and all the "Danger Will Robinson" screamers. when the steam engine was invented the ancestors of those anti progress mongers were screaming just as loud.
I use these in a boat which have the issue of stopping out in the water, to avoid going swimming I installed a small relay and small Ni-cad pack, when the Li-po's are providing power the relay is energized and the Ni-cad is isolated when the relay drops out the Li-po's are isolated and the small ni-cad pack gives me power to get back to shore, the relay draw is so small I don't notice a loss in run time.
NM-Jeff
Quote from: Young one on April 23, 2012, 01:52:19 PM
Bill,
Thanks for all the info! I have a few questions.
What size wire do you use to build the packs?
What amperage do you charge them at?
Do you run four cells alone, or multiple packs of four cells wired in parallel?
Thanks again very very informative!
Rick
Rick
I use either 18 or 20 gauge wire on mine and make sure you add a FUSE in the battery side.
I charge my Li-Ion batteries at about 1.6 to 1.8 amps. this seems to work good
The batteries are wired in series to get the proper voltage. With 4 cells in series you get
14.8 volts. I use 5 cells for 18.5 volts for all my Bachmann locos and 6 cells for 22.2 volts
in my Accucraft and Berlyn locos.
The battery amps are what the battery are rated at and these batteries are rated at 5.3 amp hours.
Hope this helps
Rodney
Had a peruse on the Web site Bill, but they wont ship to New Zealand. They must be classed as Dangerous Goods .
Dave
Rick,
Rodney's answers are right on the money! I run only four cell packs, but my friend uses 3 four cell packs in parallel to get a 14.8 volt 15900 Mah pack to run his five unit diesel set. seems to work fine. I would never have believed he could get any decent speed at only 14.8 volts, but it will go faster than I am comfortable with, even pulling all the heavy passenger cars up the 3.5 % grade he has.
Rodney, when I first build a pack, I charge the individual cells to equalize them, after they are built I charge them as a pack.
Dave, sorry to hear the bad news about New Zeland, hopefully you will find another source.
Jeff that is a slick way to solve the shutdown problem.
Question for Rodney: What do you use to charge the higher voltage packs?? My smart charger is good for a max of 14.8 volts at 1.8 amps.
Bill
Thanks guys! I swear, this forum is more helpful and more informative than any forum I have taken interest in.
I run 14.8 Volts and am thinking of using multiple packs in parallel to extend run time. Like Bill, I do not like trail cars. I have the receiver in the locomotive and the batteries in the tender. I have a whopping 36 feet of track (yes, that's thirty six) and it's all tight turns and steep grades. One tender is shortened and 'bashed' to model a partial coal load and therefore has little room for batteries. These 18650's look like the answer for me.
With packs made up of Li-po cells one must consider "balancing the cells" during charging. I assume that with each cell having a cut off circuit, this issue goes away.
Having fun,
Rick
Rick,
Glad you are enjoying the forum, we have a lot of great guys here who are very helpful, and a friendly Code of Conduct!!
I have never yet had a balancing problem with my lithium -ion packs. Li-po technology does look very interesting, especially the bendable ones. They are too expensive for me right now. I do drool about a bendable Li-po battery which could easily be hidden under the cab roof of a porter or a 2-4-2T or any cab roof for that matter.
Bill
Bill
I use 2 different ones for the Li-Ion batteries
I have a Electifly Triton 2 that is about 10 years old and will charge Li-Ion up to 18.5 volts
The other is one I bought last spring from All Battery. Its a Tenergy TB6AC and will charge
about anything that we use with out trains.
http://www.all-battery.com/Tenergytb6ac-charger-01322.aspx
I have never used it as a balancing charger yet and might try it on one of the new packs that I'll build with the new batteries
Rodney
Hi Rodney,
Thanks for the link. I just had one of my older more simplistic Tenergy smart chargers die on me. The TB6AC is out of stock and I am wondering if you think it is so much better than the other two on the page that I should wait till it is back in stock? Looks like they need an add on power supply, or did one come with it??
I hate not having two chargers. If the other goes out I will be out of business!!
Bill
Bill
If you have a good 5 amp 12 volt power source go ahead and get the TB6B
It looks like the TB6s would be OK also as it has a power supply and is a little different
but will do the same as either one of the others.
Yes I know that it is nice to have both chargers for Li-Ion batteries. I wire all my locomotives
with a switch so I can also run them with a trail car with a battery. All the Ni-Mh batteries that
I replace with Li-Ion I use in the trail cars and never have to charge the onboard batteries till
I'm done for the day. At my open house last summer, I ran one of the K-27's for about 10 hours
nonstop other than to replace the trail car battery.
For Ni-cad (tool batteries) and Ni-Mh batteries I have a Black and Decker charger that I modified with leads
and a plug to charge them.
Rodney
Thanks Rodney,
I appreciate your advice they did look a lot alike , I will go a head and get an order out!
Your way of using trail cars and onboard batteries is a pretty nice for continuous running. I got rid of trail cars and make my loco coal loads removable so I can pop them up, put in a new battery and go.
Bill
Bill,
This is the charger I and several other guys around here have...http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&P=SM&I=LXAGUG It will charge about any thing, is pretty easy to set up and has a 10 pack memory. I have charged a li-po pack followed by a nicad, a nimh and a buddies li-fe and lead acid packs one after another at the race track one day and commonly switch between my li-po and the daughters nicad. The charger can sense the difference between the li-po and the nicad and wont start if the setting is wrong. There is also a unit that will do multiple packs at once. Worth at least looking at.....Later All.....S.B.
Thanks, Bill. Great info there. Cool that they're putting the PCB within the cell now! I'll definitely have to look into those for locos where I can't fit my "standard" removeable 14.8v flat pack. Does All-Battery stock the holders as well? I couldn't find them in any of the logical places on their web site.
Later,
K
SB
They look to be about the same charges, just a little difference in the cases and the
Terergy is cheaper.
Bill
I enclose my tenders for better sound and mount the Airwire board right under the coal load so I can change channels if need be. It also gives more insulation from the batteries and motor wires noise for better radio range.
Also most times when just making laps, I don't use the onboard batteries and use the axillary batteries only. But when I'm operating I use only the onboard batteries.
Next time get get over to StL, I like to come by and see you if that is OK.
Rodney
Kevin,
Sadily All-battery does not carry the battery boxes. I have asked Jason Li (the owner) to consider it, hopefully they will.
Rodney and others interested:
My Missouri Western Railway is always glad to have visitors. We just ask folks to make arrangements in advance. An email to me is always good enough to get the ball rolling!!
Hello all,
Since following this tread I have decided to build my own. One question, after looking at all the different battery holders, are the 18650 lithium batteries the same size as AA? They sure do look the same. I ordered mine from the same source that Bill got his.
Now looking for the holders
Thanks
Rick
Rick,
the 18650 size battery is definitely not the same size as AA, they are larger. That is why battery holders or boxes are harder to find.
If you order your battery boxes from the link I posted in the first post you will be OK. If you find a better or lower cost source for them please let us know.
Bill
Bill,
Thanks for the info. I will start looking to the right box. I will let you know if I find any
Rick
Bill,
I see in your post that you held a clinic about making these packs. Was this online? If it was, would you be so kind as to send me the link or any other info. You are right, these battery holders are hard to find
Thanks once again
Rick
Rick,
No the clinics are not online nor do I have a recording of one of them.
There really was not much to the clinics. I demonstrated how to tin wire and solder, and the correct way to get the batteries in series, how to solder on the connector, test and wrap the final product.
for the holders try the link i listed at the bottom of my first post.
Here it is:
http://www.ledsupermall.com/diy-battery-box-for-4-18650-battery.html
Bill,
Thanks for your quick reply. I can use a couple of those flat holders but I would like to find some stack holders as well
If I find some I will let you know
Thanks
Rick
Bill,
I give up trying to find the 4 stack holders. I was thinking about trying to glue the 2 battery holders (plentiful) and rewire. You would have the ability to stack 4 batteries and still change a single cell.
What's your opinion?
Rick
Rick,
I completely agree. It should work fine with minimal soldering involved, and it can be done while you are soldering on your connector. The single holders could also be connected in many different configurations to fit into hard to reach or odd shaped spaces.
Yesterday I built another pack and had a really hard time soldering the wires to the positive end. For whatever reason the Tenergy batteries are a lot easier to solder to than the GTL batteries. This makes the use of battery boxes even more desirable. The negative ends of both brands are a snap.
in the future I will definitely go to using battery holders whenever they will fit into my project.
Bill,
Glad you agree, I will let you know how they come out
Thanks
Rick
For information of all.
I got my latest shipment of 12 GTL Batteries from Ebay seller "more-things' Eleven of the batteries tested out at full charge 4.15 volts right out of the box. One of them tested out at 3.1 volts. Two attempts to charge it to the full 4.15 volts failed. I have contacted the seller for a replacement.
Well, I owe more-things an apology. The battery that I tried to charge did not charge because I stupidly had the charger set up wrong. I charged it up correctly and it charged to full voltage just fine. So 12 out of twelve good ones for $38.51 and free shipping!! Unbelievable!!
Bill
It's good to here that the battery is OK
Rodney
Just ordered 4 Batteries and 4 Holders from the Website in Hong Kong that you posted Bill.
Free delivery and a great price. I think my "Annie" will run much better and longer on 14.1 volts, can't wait!
Cheers
Dave
Dave,
I'm glad you figured out how to get them in NZ. Be sure to give us a report.
I hope to do some runtime comparisons next week using an Annie if I can find the time.
Bill
Hey Bill do you sand the end of the batteries with fine sand paper before you solder them? I find it helps to just give them a quick scuff then wipe them with a paper towel that has a small amount of flux on it.
NM-Jeff
Jeff,
It definitely is a good idea to roughen up the surface of the positive end. I always flux as well. I have a 15 year old tin of flux(almost gone) which seems to work better than a new plastic tin of flux I just bought. I don't know why though.
I am putting the finishing touches on my report on battery boxes and will post it this morning. In the future I wlll use battery boxes in any situation where they will fit rather than solder.
Bill
Hi all, Here are a few more things to add to the info noted in my first post.
The picture below is one of the GTL 3.7 volt 5300 Mah cells with the cover stripped off. You can see how the PCB is now enclosed within the metal case (bottom left end) on the negative end, when compared with the Tenergy cell picture noted in my first post. This should offer better protection of the circuit if the battery pack is dropped.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/Battery%20Pictures/GTLstrippedofcover.jpg)
My battery boxes arrived from www.ledsupermall.com and the quality seems similar to the ones you can get at Radio Shack or All Electronics for AA & AAA batteries. I only ordered the ones that hold four seen in the picture below:
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/Battery%20Pictures/Batterybox1.jpg)
You can also get the boxes in 1, 2, or 3 cell sizes. I wish I would have ordered some 2 cell sizes as it would be simple to tape them back to back to get a square configuration. In any case the possibilities are endless. The next picture shows the battery box pack and one of my soldered flat packs side by side.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/Battery%20Pictures/Packcomparison.jpg)
Putting the cells in the holder only added about a quarter inch to the width and an eighth of an inch to the top, and an eighth inch to the thickness. It took just 20 minutes from the time I opened the package to set up three 14.8 Volt Battery packs and test them. Using three boxes would make a super size pack just as easily. Just solder on your favorite connector, no soldering to the batteries, pop them in, put them in your loco or battery car and off you go. Actually you could use some type of solderless electrical connector and there would be no need to solder at all. The only disadvantage to these holders so far is that the batteries can fall out very easily. I just wrapped one length of white electrical tape around them and that took care of it, and also gave me a place to jot down the info I like to have on the pack.
So the cost for one 14.8 volt 5300 mah battery pack is $2.50 for the battery box, $12.80 for the batteries and $1.20 for the connector I used, or a total of $16.50 apiece. The lowest cost I found for a commercial built up pack from a RR hobby manufacturer was $54 for a 2200 mah pack not including shipping, the lowest cost from All-battery.com was for a 2200 mah pack $40.82 including 13.62 shipping and $1.20 for my connector. It is easy to get to like $16.50 and no soldering to batteries!!!
Bill
Well I bit the bullet and ordered 10 each of the 2 and 3 cell, and 5 of the 4 cell holders.
This will make it faster to make the packs and easier to change out a cell if one should
go bad.
I will most likely still have to make some custom packs for the 2 truck shays, climaxes and a heilser that
I have.
Rodney
Well my batteries arrived today and soldered up 2 18.5 volt packs. Out of the first 5 packages (shipped 2 cells to a package) I opened up, on one I could not get any voltage. It went on the charger and it is OK. The voltages raged from 3.9 to 4.2 on the rest. Sometime this week I'll check some run times with some of the K's. On my Accucraft K-28 I can get about 2 to 2 1/2 hours run on the Ni-MH 4200 mAH that are still in it. I will make a pack for it and see if these battery will last any longer.
Rodney
Rodney,
I was reading the manual on the Tenergy charger that you use. I am a bit confused. I see the balance port and the small board attached. Since there are various sizes of connectors on that board, how is it connected to the battery pack? Am I missing something? ??? ??? ???
I did not want to order until I had some questions answered.
Rick
I use Aristo type connectors that I get from All Electronics (polarity is reversed of Aristo though) on all my battery packs and I use type "N" charging ports from Radio Shack for charging onboard batteries. I make my own charging cables with banana plugs from RS with these connectors on the ends.
Here is one hooked up for charging onboard batteries.
(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/2205/dscf3166e.jpg)
If your going to use the cell holders, if I were you, I'd just buy a cheap 4,5 or 6 cell smart charger from All-Battey and go that way for now. They are a lot easier to use cause it is a pain to program the TB6ac that I have.
Rodney
Thanks Rodney,
I think I will stick to my smart charger from Cordless Renovations. Hope to be sending my K soon. ;D ;D
Rick
Rick
Yea if you got one of those chargers, stick with it.
I'll be looking for the motor out of your K then
Rodney
Here is part 3. Good News Bad news
Lithium Ion battery pack runtime test.
Some sources say the GTL 3.7 volt 5300 mah battery cells are not really 5300 mah. To date I have found no article which offers any kind of evidence that they are or are not 5300 mah. I decided to try a test of running time using the GTL 5300 mah cells against the running time of the Tenergy 2600 mah cells and the Tenergy 2200 mah cells. I used a 14.8 volt battery pack made up of each brand. The thought being that the 5300 mah pack should have about double the running time of the 2600 mah pack and the 2200 mah pack should have about 15% less running time than the 2600 mah pack.
To test it out I used a well broken in Bachmann Anniversary 4-6-0 with the Version 5 Chassis equipped with an Aristo-Craft Revolution on board receiver and a Phoenix sound system. I hooked on 5 Bachmann Jackson and Sharp passenger cars. For the test I disconnected the lights in the cars.
I ran the test on my indoor layout which is a roughly 50 foot by 10 foot layout laid out in a modified dogbone style. The main line track is dead level, mostly curved track of five foot radius, or ten foot in diameter. There is probably not more than 20 feet of straight track. I feel these conditions will give the reader at least some idea how the battery packs perform. Runtime on layouts with grades, or tighter curves will be lower, and longer on flat layouts with wider curves and lots of straight track.
I charged each battery pack just before putting it in the locomotive for the test. All packs checked out between 16.64 volts and 16.69 volts at the start of the tests. Using the Aristo-craft Revolution allowed me to have precision measurements of the speed of the locomotive. I conducted each test at the speed setting of 45 on the Revolution transmitter. All tests were continuous running with no alteration of the speed, the sound was on in all tests. Each type of pack was run twice.
As you can see the results are clear. The GTL 5300 mah battery cells are clearly not 5300 mah but most likely only 2600 mah. The base line running times for the Tenergy 2600 mah pack was 6 hours and 27 minutes and the times for the GTL 5300 pack was actually about 10 minutes less. The Tenergy 2200 mah pack delivered a runtime of 5 hours and 16 minutes. During the testing I had another Tenergy 2600 mah battery pack fail it too, was about a year old. All four of my Tenergy 2200 mah packs still work fine after over four years of use. I have been unable to figure out why two of my four Tenergy 2600 mah pack failed after only a year of use.
Lessons learned:
Testing runtime is very boring!! I did learn that Lithium Ion batteries do slow down considerably the longer they are run, it is not as discernible as with NiCad or NIMH cells but it is there. In my tests I checked the time it took to make a lap at the beginning of the test and at each hour thereafter. By the fourth hour the time per lap decrease was noticeable to the eye without timing. In real life running I realized that as time went on during a session I was subconsciously increasing the speed to make up for the slowdown without even realizing it.
Overall Conclusions:
The GTL and Tenergy products have good runtime and the protection circuits worked as they are supposed to in the tests.
The GTL packs, in spite of the fact that they are not 5300 mah are still the lowest cost option when making packs.
It is hard if not impossible to rely on battery specifications from Hong Kong or Chinese suppliers.
Battery packs made without soldering using battery boxes performed equally well as soldered packs.
Making "do it yourself" battery packs is easier than ever using battery boxes and they are only slightly larger than soldered packs.
The GTL packs do have the protection circuit encased within the cell casing which offers better protection if dropped.
Use of battery boxes will allow easy diagnosis and replacement if one of the cells fails and will also provide better protection of the cells if dropped.
There is great risk of ruining a battery pack if it is overly discharged. Once you determine normal running time for your situation it is far better if you stop your train and recharge after using no more that 90 % of your normal runtime.
I am concerned that two of my four Tenergy 2600 Mah packs failed after only about a year in service. These are the same batteries used in some expensive packs sold by a garden railroad electronics supplier, but under their own brand.
Well that is it for now, I am going to play with my trains rather than test any more batteries!
Bill
Thanks for your work in testing these batteries. Even if they are only 2600 ma, they are still cheap at only $3.20 a cell and is about 1/2 the price of the Tenergy 2600 ma cells.
I wonder if it will get any better after a few cycles on the packs.
Rodney
WOW Bill!!
Great test with really excellent methodology.
Thanks for applying your usual great detail and precise work to this very current and fast moving subject. I know this information will be of use to many (including myself) who have questions about the performance of Li-Ion battery packs.
Now you deserve to be able to just go play trains! :) :)
Jerry
Bill, you missed your chance to paint the shed while testing the batteries. That way, you could watch paint dry, grass grow, AND batteries run down. ;D
Seriously, cool test, and thanks for posting the results.
Later,
K
(And I can't remember if I responded to your e-mail. I know I started writing, but can't remember if I hit send. I'll check tonight when I get home.)
Hi guys,
You are all welcome and thanks for the kind remarks. I saw many other Hong Kong batteries from advertized from 2800 mAh to 4200 mah and got tempted to try some of them, but the sellers when questioned claimed they did not have the PCB protection. Since I could not see the writing on the cell covers in the pictures, I had to assume (dangerous word) they were correct, but I am convinced from many of the responses they really don't know what they have. There were some really cheap 3800 mah cells the seller said did not have protection and I almost bought them just to see if he was right, but in the end kept it to just the GTL's.
I do remain convinced that higher power Lithium Ion batteries will come along because of the world's hunger for portable or remote electronic devices, so I will keep my eyes open. All-battery.com does sell an LG Chem brand 2800 mah battery and a careful look at the detailed spec indicated it does have protection, but at $9.95 apiece I decided not to try them either.
Kevin, I did get a lot of my other equipment serviced, and also got a lot of reading done, but the thing that really got to me was the constant chug chug and the need to check the lap times :'(!! I kept the sound on because most run with sound and because it was a good way to tell if something was changing or stopping. I will also look forward to getting the email from you.
Bill
Hi Bill - Rodney
I received my GTL batteries today. All except one was within acceptable voltage - 3.79 to 4.10. The one battery was at 0.993 Volts.
I have to wait for my battery holders. My Cordless Renovations charger will only charge 7.4 & up. I will attempt to charge the two lowest when the boxes arrive before I contact the seller.
Any other suggestions? Or wait and see. ??? :-\
Rick
Rodney,
That is pretty low, I would contact them and let them know right away there may be a problem unless you expect the holders in a day or two. You could try taping them nose to tail and taping the charger leads to the ends. Works in a pinch especially if you don't expect the holders for awhile. Hard to keep things tight, but doable. Ask me how I know ;D.
Bill
Hi Bill, Rodney,
I'm going battery power and was told before to use sub c batteries for the K27 to get decent run time. Has anyone tried the smaller packs with a K?? If So how long of a run time did you get??
Thanks Chuck
Bill,
I took your suggestion and taped the batteries together. The 0.993v battery did charge to 4.1v but the other stayed right at 3.79v, no change. I will try again when the holders arrive. I suppose at 3.79v the battery is still ok.
Rick
Quote from: chuckger on May 06, 2012, 08:20:09 AM
I'm going battery power and was told before to use sub c batteries for the K27 to get decent run time. Has anyone tried the smaller packs with a K?? If So how long of a run time did you get??
I get between 3 and 4 hours continuous running with a 2600mAh, 14.8 Li-Ion pack in my K-27. That's pulling 10 cars at public displays where there is virtually no grade. The K's tender is cavernous, so if you need longer run times, you can easily fit the 5200 or 7800 mAh (or thereabouts) packs inside. They're more expensive, obviously, but for upwards of 12 hours run time on a single charge? If you run for long periods of time, it's worth it. Most of my tender shells are removable, so I just swap out the 2600mAh pack when it goes flat if I want to run longer. (I generally only run my K at shows, so after 3 - 4 hours, it's high time to let someone else have the track anyway.)
Later,
K
Rick, Glad to hear it charged up ok. As for the 3.79 battery try running it down first then recharging it. Some times when my batteries are used for a very short time and show in that range, the smart charger or PCB seems to think it is still charged enough and doesn't kick in and charge it higher.
Kevin, That is impressive runtime for a K27 pulling ten cars. What voltage/speed level do you use?
Chuck, You can use two 14.8 volt 2600 mAh packs in parallel as Kevin suggests. If like me you do not run continuously you should get more runtime than you will,ever need in most typical sessions. Like Kevin I make my coal loads removable so I can clip in another fresh battery in less than 30 seconds. You will not regret going battery!!
Bill
Quote from: Loco Bill Canelos on May 06, 2012, 01:41:36 PM
Chuck, You can use two 14.8 volt 2600 mAh packs in series as Kevin suggests. If like me you do not run continuously you should get more runtime than you will,ever need in most typical sessions. Bill
2 x 14.8 volt batteries in series will = 29.6 volts, which is a bit on the high side. Surely you mean in parallel?
Chuck
I have Cordless Renovations CR1705 (18 volt 5600ma) in 2 of my K-27 and have only ran 1 of the batteries till it stopped. It was the day I had my layout running all day for the National Convention tour and I would guess that I got about 6 hours out of it pulling 15 AMS cars pulling 2% grades with Airwire throttle set at about 50%.
Like Kevin and Bill said, you could just switch out the battery packs.
Rodney
Thanks Tony, correction made!! Parallel it is! Brain was not functioning ::)
Quote from: Loco Bill Canelos on May 06, 2012, 01:41:36 PM
Kevin, That is impressive runtime for a K27 pulling ten cars. What voltage/speed level do you use?
14.8 volts, running at probably 70% throttle. I've got one of Rodney's reduction gearheads installed. I got comparable times with the stock gearbox. The throttle setting was around 45% for the same speed. I'd imagine the current draw was probably a bit higher, but I never measured it to compare. Again, this is also on nominally flat public displays with 10' radius curves. The 10 cars offer a fair amount of drag in their own right, but the track didn't add anything to it.
Later,
K
Hi Guys'
Thanks for the info, very helpful. I am definatly going battery, I have 200ft of lagas code 215 alluminum track, and I just got a Kobota TLB BX for my birthday. So one of these days I will get trains running.
I will send an order out for some battery boxes and some batteries shortly.
Thanks again, Chuck
Wouldn't it be great if Large Scale locomotive manufacturers designed their new issue locomotives with battery in mind. By that I mean make steamers so that tenders or coal loads or even boiler tops are easily removable to allow for battery pack changes from the top. If the diesels were designed with removable top hatches batteries could be loaded from the top as well. While it might not be practical for very small locos it would still be nice to see in most others.
A factory installed switch to change from track power to battery and a connector in the tender or diesel body to allow battery pack changes would top things off nicely. Even a snap on diesel fuel tank or coal load designed as a battery holder for 18650 batteries would be cool.
All my steamers are modified to allow top changes. Since I don't use smoke I modified a U25B Diesel exhaust stack to allow a battery pack to be put in through the top, it is so simple to change out the batteries in it now. My other diesels all have their battery packs built in requiring pulling the loco from service to recharge them. I usually put them in the fuel tank so that I can access them
Yes I run diesels too. My indoor layout is steam era and my outdoor layout is early diesel era to 1966.
Well I have 2 batteries out of 36 that will not charge. Sent a e-mail to the supplier and they are going to replace them. I tried to charge them on both chargers, so I don't think it the charger but I went ahead and ordered 2, 5 cell smart chargers from All-Battery and will see if they will charge them. I received the battery boxes yesterday and will start building some packs this weekend.
Bill
The Bachmann K-27 was designed with everything you ask for and I have a new shay that I've been told that is this way also.(never had it out of the box yet)
Rodney
Rodney,
Sorry to hear the bad news! I agree it is probably not the chargers, Did you try charging them up individually before making the pack?? I would definitely try charging them individually. Also if you got one too hot while soldering you may have damaged the protection circuit. I usually test each battery first, then make the pack using known fully charged batteries. If something fails after making the pack, it is more than likely something I did wrong. When ordering the chargers from All-battery.com consider getting the one with switches that allows you to charge 1 , 2, 3, or 4, 3.7 volt cells, that way you can safely charge one cell at a time. Since you are making 18.5 volt 5 cell packs, the 5 cell chargers are fine, but only allow you to charge all five cells as a pack, not individual cells. You can definitely do damage to a single cell trying to use a multiple cell charger, so don't even try it. You may also have triggered the short circuit protection without realizing it; it some, but not all cases, waiting awhile then trying to charge the cell individually may bring it back.
here is the link for the charger I mentioned. Shame they don't make one with 5 positions.
http://www.all-battery.com/universalsmartchargerforli-ionpolymerbatterypack37v-148v1-4cells.aspx
I have been running my GTL packs every day since I made them, and so far so good, no failures, all charge fine.
Share what works and what doesn't !!
Bill
Hi all, I recieved my Batteries and Holders a few days ago and today Tested them out in my "Annie". Pulled three J/S coaches with some passengers up an down my 3% grades and one is also on a 8ft diameter curve.
Batteries were Ultrafire 4000mah PCB and pack was reading 16.8 volts at the start of my test run of 2 hours continuous running at 65% Throttle. The battery pack was reading 15.6 volts when I stopped running. A good result I thought.
Dave
Waikino
Bill
Yea I tried to charge them individually and both charger responded with a open circuit. I only made 2 packs by soldering them. At the time I made the 2 packs I only checked the first 10 that I took out of the bag. Then when I received the cell holders I checked the rest of them and found these two. I told the supplier that they could wait till I do another order to ship the replacements.
This weekend I'm going to convert one of Kristi's (wife) shays to battery with Aristo Revolution and a P8 sound board. This is one of new releases so we'll see if it truly plug and play. It has a factory installed speaker so that will be a big help too.
One of the packs that I built is in a early DRGW Bumble Bee converted to a Annie with Airwire, P8 and a Sluthe smoke generator. I have about 2 hours on it and still going strong (only run with the smoke on for about 30 minutes). I'll wait till she stops to charge it and see how many amps it will hold on the first charge.
This is going to be my traveling locomotive as it is the smallest that I have and shouldn't have any problems on most layout we go to.
Rodney
Bill, are you the William Canelos from Truxton whose "Battery Packs Demystified" article appeared in the December 2012 Garden Railways?
If you are, it's a great article and seems to be a much better solution thatn buying li-Ion packs from Aristo that go bad.
I do have one question about the GTL 5,300mAh batteries. I found them on eBay, and like your article said, the vendor says they do not have built in PCB protection. But said, after opening one up that they really do. How can you tell that it was built into the metal enclosure? ???
Yes George, I wrote that article, one way I found out is by tearing one apart but that destroys the battery. The GTL which I bought and though were NOT protected. I wiil reply in more detail tomorrow as I am not feeling well right now. and give some more tips that I have learned since then. Bill
George, Sorry about my poor post yesterday. The GTL brand batteries noted in the article were not advertized as having a protection circuit but when I got them the lettering on the batteries indicated they were. I can no longer find that Brand. The Tenergy Brand from all-battery.com are priced fairly well but shipping costs have gone up.
Shipping batteries is now more costly because the US Post Office no longer allows shipment of batteries by mail apparently some have shorted out in transit due to poor packing. Orders placed with Hong Kong based sellers do seem to come through the US Mail. although shipping has gone up in many cases.
The way I test Lithium Ion batteries that say they have PCB protection is to put them in a pack and run them till they shut down. I then use the meter I mentioned in the article to measure the voltage on each individual cell, they should read about 3.0 volts or very close to it, but not lower than about 2.5 volts. It is harder to test the upper limit because most chargers sold for these batteries will automatically stop charging at a safe limit. The top charge for each individual cell should not be higher than 4.33 volts. If an individual cell reads much above that it will most likely not have a PCB circuit. If you have made up packs, the shut down voltage should be close to 12 volts and the upper limits no more than about 17 volts. Most smart chargers will stop charging when the pack reaches 16.25 to 16.5 volts. You cannot properly test individual batteries while connected in pack.
All recent Lithium Ion cells produced in the last three years do have a special internal circuit which will shut down the battery if it overheats. This circuit is designed to prevent cells from overheating to the point of rupture or causing a fire. Once triggered the cell is ruined. I mention this because of all the hype put out by some that these batteries will blow up and cause a fire. The technology has solved that problem in small cells like the ones we use. That is not to say you should not follow the instructions and warnings that come with your batteries.
The biggest danger to your batteries will be discharging them below 2.5 volts which may eventually ruin the cell. A sure sign of this is if you try to charge the cell and it will not charge. Over time I have learned to know when the batteries are about to cut off. You can tell they are about to shut down when on a particular segment of track you have to increase the voltage more and more to the loco to maintain the same speed as when you started. I usually stop my loco and change batteries before they shut down to avoid any possibility of too low a voltage.
Maybe some of the others have a way of testing that will be helpful, it may seem like I am a battery expert, but I only report from my own experience not that of an expert in battery engineering.
There are some newer battery HOLDERs which have a built in PCB protection circuit, you can use either protected batteries or non-protected batteries in them without a problem allowing you to buy the lowest cost batteries available and have the assurance of being protected. Here is a link to them on Ebay, I do not know of a US provider.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/380597615726?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2661
I have not tried them, but the specs look very good. You have to scroll way down to get to the specs. They are about 16 buck per holder, but once purchased they can be used ovr and over. If anyone has tried these please post your experience.
I did not mention in the Article that I tested 18650 lithium Ion cells by dropping them repeatedly and even throwing them down hard. I did it at least 60 times with no fires and no explosions and no rupturing or swelling of the cells. Doing this did eventually ruin the internal PCB. I also chucked one in a vice and hit it with a hammer again no problems other than ruining it. I chucked another one in the vice and drove a nail through it again no horror of explosions. All the time I was wearing leather safety gloves , vest, chaps and a full face safety mask. The comments in GR putting fear into those who use these batteries is largely unfounded with the more recently manufactured cells. No matter safety first and following instructions is the best bet. My wife charges her Lithium powerd devices on a flammable surface all the as do many folks with cell phones. The improvements in this technology have been such as tom make things safer and more powerful. Other lithium technologies seem promising but for now are very expensive.
Bill
Hi Bill,
Just want to express a big thanks for this really useful info. Bravo!
Bill (Gandy Dancer).