Lettering a few cabooses for my EM-1, and need to know the size of the "linking 13 states" herald used by the B&O. The larger one appears to be 36" in dia. How large is the slightly smaller one. When did the smaller one replace the larger one. Having some decals made. Bill
blf,
I don't know the measurement. However, having built a few B&O cabeese, there doesn't seem to be a consistent size, produced by manufacturers. They are all too big compared to the prototype. Here's an I-5D I built:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN6890.jpg)
Here is the prototype:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/C2222a.jpg)
Notice the '13 great states' logo is decidedly smaller on the real thing.
Here are a few others. Notice the heralds are too big on both the I-12 and I-1a:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN4831.jpg)
I would 'guess' the real herald is about 25% smaller than the standard decals offered by other makers. However, even the full size decal from a Box car kit will fit in the space. It will look a little too big. I estimate the homemade decal should be about 27-28 scale inches in diameter. Remember, that's a guess.
Hope that helps.
Regards,
Jonathan
If you scale the herald's vertical measurement on the prototype that Jonathan posted, you'll find it is about the same height as the windows. So then measure the window height on your model and make the herald that height (diameter).
If you do a Google search for images of B&O caboose you'll get some more pictures.
Thanks guys; the 36" herald appears to be correct for early circa, but noticeably reduced later. Thought around 30" would be a start, but wondered if some one new what was really used. Measured a Fox Valley car and it is 36". Going to reread some of my Sunshine Models data to see what they used. Come to think of it, I have a Tangent Models gon to measure. Maybe they standardized on one size for everything. Bill
Thanks again to all; I decided due to the wheel base and step configuration(already had to spread the wheel base as it was 6" short of 15')to use the 36" logo. Going to have some made at 34" to 35" also as it might look a little better on the model. It's a Trains Inc import I've had since the late 60's or early 70's and just getting around to detailing and painting it. I believe the 27" dia. suggestion was very close for the smaller herald. Bill
If Jonathan has no answer about the B&O then there is none!
I was thinking about this posting and I wonder if maybe the B&O had no detailed standards for the paint shop. Is it possible that the paint shop guys used whatever stencil they had on hand?
Quote from: Woody Elmore on May 10, 2012, 12:36:14 PM
I wonder if maybe the B&O had no detailed standards for the paint shop. Is it possible that the paint shop guys used whatever stencil they had on hand?
Woody-
It seems to me that the existence of the stencil represents a standard.
-- D
I get a chuckle whenever we discuss a B&O 'standard'. Sometimes, it seems the B&O changed its color schemes and markings as often as the conductor changed his socks. :)
Whenever a change was ordered, there were several shops in Maryland, Indiana, Ohio and Kentucky that did the work. Sometimes it would take years for the change to be implemented across the railroad. So, I don't get too wrapped around the axle when it comes to being exactly correct for the prototype. Depends what day the picture was taken often times. It seems the size, location and color of the logo changed alot in short periods of time. There was a brief period when the logos were yellow/gold instead of white. Hard to keep up, at least for me.
One other detail that screams B&O were the ladder extensions to the roof. I tend to build mine a little taller than the prototype, just to accentuate them.
I couldn't let this go without posting a couple more pics with the I-5d in a more completed state. Here she is almost done. I eventually changed out the trucks and couplers, and finished the detail painting, but couldn't find the finished pics on this pc.
Regards,
Jonathan
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN6905.jpg)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN6903.jpg)
I know what you mean. Being a Pennsy freak, they took quite a while to get the new stencils to all the paint shop locations some times. The smaller logo seems to be a circa thing from my research. The last I read was that they started stretching the wheel base to19' in 1942. This really restricts me to the arrangement to use. By the way, the correct color on the lens on markers for the B&O and C&O is driving me nuts. Can any one in lighten me. Bill
On the B&O, the caboose marker lenses went: red lenses pointed to the rear. All the others were green. Now... there were exceptions and/or special rules for certain routes. However, the above configuration is the accepted standard ;D for cabooses.
R.
JV
What I meant about standards was that there may have been different stencils for different types of cars - e.g. one size for box cars, another for cabooses. It would be easy to swap them.
Thinking about painting standards, recently the MTA has been working on track in Oyster Bay - They had this very sorry work train on the main line. Among the cars was an old PRR gon. The conrail reporting marks and number are still visible. At the other end of the car is this barely visible swatch of very faded green. If you look carefully you can see (very faintly) the PC worm herald. The PC is an easy road to model - paint things black and stick a herald somewhere on the side.
Recently I took the LIRR into the city. The big Jamaica yard has all kinds of work equipment with cars from a number of fallen flags on sidings - My favorite is the PRR caboose lettered for Amtrak. I think it is used as an office.
It is great that modellers like Jon, and many others, try to remain true to the prototype. Today history is unimportant and people forget that railroads made this country. I heard a windbag on the radio putting down the concept of high speed intercity trains as "nineteenth century" technology - which is true to a point. If there was no MTA or LIRR here in the New York area the economy would be seriously affected. I'll put the soapbox away now!
Thanks Jonathan: Will have to make a few changes. A tip I read a long time ago said to use a lead pencil to cover over the painted lens surface when dry, and the graphite gives a glass look. I use it all the time and love it! If you get to much coverage, just rub with your finger until satisfied, or wet finger, and rub it off, and try again. I only do this with flat paint and don't know how it will work with glossy surface. Also deepens the color to look more realistic for daytime appearance. Bill
Interesting; I've never heard of the pencil trick. Will have to try it on a couple of my locos.
I do lenses two ways:
Use epoxy to fix jewels in the marker cups; or
Paint the cups the appropriate color, then apply a drop of epoxy in the cup. The paint shows through the epoxy. This is my second choice, when I can't get my hands on those microscopic jewels. My favorite are the non-backed clear jewels. I can still paint the cups and epoxy the jewels in place. The paint shows through the jewels. That effect looks best to me. It's an opinion thing.
Woody, I think you hit it with the different sizes for different types of equipment. The herald on my box cars are much larger than the covered hoppers, which are a different size on the open hoppers. It's obvious from pics that cabooses has a smaller size logos than all the other equipment. However, the model folks always throw in decals with heralds the same size as the box car heralds. I'm sure economics is at work there. :)
Regards,
Jonathan
Jonathan; Northeast Railfan site has many pictures of B&O cabooses. One shows large emblem(36") to the left of the bay and the smaller seem to be to the right. That's why I thought it might be a circa thing. Seems as though they began with the larger to the left. I Goggle B&O caboose to bring up many photos of different schemes, not many posted with year and can't read most reweigh and paint dates. Bill
Bill,
There are books I could recommend, which are a bit pricey, that discuss the switches between the "13 great states" logo (larger) and the capitol dome logo (smaller).
I try to use the "13 great states" logo (larger), because it is more representative of the late steam era.
I know most photos are black and white, but by the time the diesel era started to take over, the B&O (coming under the control of the C&O) started painting their cabooses blue with yellow ends. This is when the small capitol dome logo was most prevalent on cabooses. That's a short answer to a more complicated explanation. Example: when the C&O took full control of the B&O, cabooses were painted all yellow. The final nail in the coffin was when the Chessie Cat started to show up on equipment still marked for the B&O. :'( It's painful to think and write about it.
The I-12 (wagon top) and I-17 (bay window) went through just about every paint scheme the B&O ever used.
There is photographic evidence that the small capitol dome logo was used as early as WWII on some freight equipment, then switched back to the large logo between 1946 and late 1950s. As I mentioned before, it took a long time for some equipment to get the new paint schemes and markings.
I chalk it up to personal preference. I tend to pick a photo I like, and copy my paint and markings to match the photo, regardless of what year the picture was taken.
Back to the EM-1. I have seen photos and film clips of I-5 and I-12 cabooses on a train pulled or pushed by an EM-1. They appear to be red with large 13 great state logos. As the EM-1 survived until 1960, it is possible that she may have pulled a train with a yellow caboose (small logo) in the rear. I have seen one blurry film clip that appeared to have yellow caboose--since the film was b/w, can't say for sure.
These films are available on youtube.
Regards,
Jonathan
Jonathon: I'm not near my home library to confirm, but I don't think any of the EM-1's ran after about mid-1958. The B&O ran a "Farewell to Steam" fan trip in May of that year (with a Q-4) which was advertised as the last steam operation on the B&O. That wasn't quite true, but very close. A couple of the EM-1's were in storage until sent to scrap in 1960. IIRC, there were close to a hundred steamers still listed on the January 1, 1960 B&O roster, but again almost none had operated for at least a year.
EBTNUT,
I believe you are correct, sir. :)
Still I have seen an old film clip of an EM-1, with mixed freight (mostly coal), with a very light colored caboose. Could have been just very faded from age, of course.
I'd like to believe the yellowstones only pushed and pulled red cabooses. That's the story on my railroad, anyway. ;D
The latest clip, with a date on it, that I've seen, was 1957. I guess it was wishful thinking that one still made steam in 1960. I was born a year too late too see one in person.
Well, I do have my toys, uh scale models, anyway.
Regards,
Jonathan
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Projects/DSCN7148.jpg)
There were two distinct sizes of the 13 States logo, 36" and 25". It was a complex mask and multiple sizes were just not used. There were a few variations of the capitol dome logo, two different 24" versions with a change in the "B&O" and then a 23.5" size used later.
As with most everything there are variations that slipped out of the shops that throw a wrench into things but the list below was compiled to help in decaling a I-12 wagontops and the basic rules were the same for other cabooses. Keep in mind, if a caboose already wore an older scheme, it would only get changed if the caboose was going to be in the shop for a while.
Logo variations -
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/1205/B_OWagonTopDecalsSmall.jpg) (http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/73168/title/b-amp-o-caboose-decal-set-inverse-colors/cat/1205)
Paint Schemes -
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/1205/B_OWagonTopDecals.jpg) (http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/60801/title/b-owagontopdecals/cat/1205)
Some examples in N scale -
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/1205/DecaledDullcoated.jpg) (http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/91965/title/jnj-i-12-decal-dullcoat/cat/1205)
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/1205/B_O_I-1_Paint_Decal_2.jpg) (http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/38259/title/heavily-modified-fox-valley-models-b-amp-o-i-1/cat/1205)
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/1888/DeVries_C2814_Weathered_C.jpg) (http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/95679/title/jnj-i-12-cabooses-brian-devries/cat/1888)
Tony,
Thanks for that comprehensive list. Goes to show how complicated it can get, depending on what year you wish to model, AND when a particular caboose might have gotten its new paint scheme and markings.
I think my next caboose project will get the 1955 version.
Great N scale modeling, too! My eyes and hands couldn't work that small. Thanks!
Regards,
Jonathan
YES, YES; Thank you Tony and Jonathan. I knew the info had to be out there somewhere. Bill
You're welcome.
As always, it is best to work from a photo if possible to get the most accurate model.
There are two B&O caboose books out there that are both invaluable:
Cabooses of the Baltiimore & Ohio, by Robert Hubler
Baltimore & Ohio Cabooses - Photos and Diagrams, Dwight Jones
Most of my information was compiled by referencing these two books along with some help from members of the B&O historical society. The decal sheet above was done for N scale modelers because we had an I-12 caboose kit available with no decals to finish it properly.
Jonathon: Re: The film clip - my guess would be that the hack was likely a bit faded (red paint seems to do that) maybe coupled with the film being orthochromatic (assuming the film was b&w), which did interesting things with how colors were rendered in b&w. Panchromatic films were better at such things, but pan film was just coming into its own as the steam era waned.