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Title: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: captain1313 on June 05, 2012, 01:09:11 AM
In another discussion, some comments were made regarding why some modellers prefer steam and others diesel.  So I thought this might be a nice discussion.  Some like steam because that's what they remember as a child........others never had the opportunity.  Growing up in Chicago in the 50's I don't recall ever seeing a steamer.  Then again my memory may have some gaps. ;D  I got back in this hobby about a year and a half ago.  My first power was diesel. 2 F7's, 2 GP40's and a 70 tonner.  Once I started building the layout (and the 3 expansions) I realized that the structures I liked (and had room for) were from the "Golden Age of Rail".  Small freight stations, smaller passenger depots, ice facilities, feed lots and other small businesses that utilized rail for their goods.  They have a smaller footprint as compared to modern industries on the rail lines of today.  Back in the sixties RR's closed most of their smaller branch lines and got out of the LCL business and went to trucks and piggyback.  A steamer is the only thing that looks good spotting cars at the icing facility.  I now have 7 steamers. Life was so much simpler in those days but oh brother the work was harder.

Took a vote at the company board meeting and Me, Myself and I all voted  for steam. 

Kevin
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: NarrowMinded on June 05, 2012, 02:43:27 AM
I like steam engines because that's what was in the sets I got when I was a Kid in the the 60's, I also like diesels like the SD-45s and SW1500's I saw running on the tracks at the edge of the city I grew up in.

My favorite steamer is the SP 4449  they repainted for the Bicentennial, I was 12 years old  when I saw her in person, it was night time, the ground was wet from fallling dew, the sky was clear with a bright moon, I walked with my dad as we turned the corner there she sat steam drifting away from her with all the lights reflecting off her new shiny paint.

On the flip side I can't recall a single detail of the Freedom train Cars or what I saw inside, I was to wrapped up in my thoughts of getting outside to see her again.

NM-Jeff
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: phillyreading on June 05, 2012, 08:16:55 AM
Growing up in southeast Pennsylvania in the late 1960's and early 70's, I got to see both steam and diesel engines. I like steam engines better, but the diesel models in model RR seem easier to work on.
I also like to see RDC passenger cars, or interurban passenger units in use on the real railroads.
With steam or diesel models, you just need to have tracks run, unlike electric models that don't look right unless you have the overhead electric wires ran.

Lee F.
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: ebtnut on June 05, 2012, 12:53:40 PM
My working theory has been that you are usually most content modeling what you remember around ages 10-12.  Certainly not a hard and fast rule, becuase variety can also be a good thing.  I can just remember Pennsy steam in the early 1950's in NW Pennsylvania, and steam is what I model.  But I also like and appreciate first-generation diesels, which fall into my age 10-12 period.  Ergo, my model railroad is principally a steam-powered narrow gauge pike set in central Pennsylvania in about 1954, connecting with the Western Maryland running RS-3's, F-A's, and one Russian Decapod. 
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: jward on June 05, 2012, 01:54:24 PM
hmmm 12 years old. for me that would be 1976. conrail had just taken over from penn central. between all the lines that went into conrail, and the leased power from all over the country it was a rainbow. f7s and alcos everywhere. that was also the year we stumbled upon the farewell to the train master excursion on vacation in southern virginia.

let's compare that to what i currently have on the layout:
9 alcos including rs3s, an fa2, a couple of s4s, and an rs36.
an n&w baby train master.
one conrail b23-7.
several various emd locomotives including gp40s, a gp38-2 and a gp15-1

lines represented, pennsy, penn central, conrail, b&o, western maryland, erie, chessie system, n&w, d&h and union pacific.

plus a couple of steamers for my better half, and some amtrak stuff for my son.

the vast majority represents equipment as it looked in the 1960s and 1970s.

maybe there is something to that 10-12 year old rule after all.

Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on June 05, 2012, 02:54:24 PM
Quote from: phillyreading on June 05, 2012, 08:16:55 AM
Growing up in southeast Pennsylvania in the late 1960's and early 70's, I got to see both steam and diesel engines.

I was growing up in the same general region in the same general period, but I think, paradoxically, I may actually have seen more steam than diesel, even though steam was all but gone by the time I was born at the end of the 1950s.

But I grew up near the Strasburg Rail Road, so I was taken for a steam train ride every summer. There was also the Wanamaker, Kempton, & Southern. (I didn't make it to the East Broad Top, the Wilmington & Western, or the New Hope & Ivyland until I was an adult.) My childhood was also the era when there seemed to be several of steam-train-themed TV shows, for example Petticoat Junction and Iron Horse (both of which featured the same train, actually  ;D ). And lots of the old Westerns on TV usually featured a plot involving a steam train now and then (a couple episodes of Gunsmoke come readily to mind). And then there was watching The Great Locomotive Chase on Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color. So growing up seeing steam on TV fairly regularly, I almost feel as though I grew up with steam rather than diesels.

I guess my interest can be blamed on television!  ;D

JBJ
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: ryeguyisme on June 05, 2012, 03:32:02 PM
Well starting from when I was about the size if a football, to the present 23 years of age, I started out watching a lot of Thomas and watching black and white movies on turner classic movies, favorites like "Danger Lights" and the original "Silver Streak" from the 1930's so granted the Milwaukee Road and CB&Q with all the mountain scenery and roaring steam locomotives will always have a special place in my heart.

I also watched "Ghost Trains Of The Wild West" featuring maintained narrow gauge and standard gauged steam and with one heck of a decent musical score, deff worth a watch.

My father was a model railroader and at a very young age like 3 I remember getting into his stuff and hiding his pancake motor bachmann daylights under the bed only to be discovered accompanied by a nasty spanking(how discipline was dealt back then) despite the punishment, it didn't stop me from trying to get into things again.

Along the way I've broken his equipment from my rather dubious handling, and he had this cardboard box he shoved everything I destroyed into and I was allowed to play with just those. It had some diesels but I preferred to play with a mantua pacific that only had wheels left and pretended it was roaring through the mountains of the Milwaukee road

As I grew older I dipped a few times into diesels but they didn't really catch in.

My father had this book on Model Railroading with John Allen as well as hundreds of the mdc cars, and that book I used to snatch and ogle at until the pages fell out, it was the only book I didn't color in with a crayons when I was 4 must've been that good of a book.

I also became a huge john Allen fan as I grew older imagining I had his layout and engines and hoping someday to have magic of his caliber.

Fast forward to my teens I've been to a few scenic railroads like Essex here in Connecticut and everytime I go and watch those magnificent steam beasts labor through the yard I would get chills up and down my spine and have the biggest grin on my face, its an experience no diesel could ever give me.

I'm strictly steam on my rails.

I got into high school and couldn't buy much, I had a few engines that were mostly kits like mdcharriman switchers and atlantics I built on my own, they were my father's as well so I still got in trouble for touching those. And as time went on the collection grew, until I had a bunch of plastic diecast steamers. Then at 21-22 years old I got tired of the genericness of things and decided to go brass and I bought my first engines a 0-8-0 and a 2-6-0 and really liked them but they weren't my prototype, then came my brass DMIR 2-10-4 and eventually my DRGW brass steam which I love dearly.

I'm big into DRGW heavy steam and Gorre and Daphetid Steam

No motorized boxcars for me, I need the soul of a breathing steam locomotive.
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: 2-8-8-4 on June 07, 2012, 04:33:13 PM
I started out with diesels on my first layout, and with a few minor exceptions, diesel power is all I've ever seen working.

Of course I've ridden the Grand Canyon Railway in the dome car behind 4960, Steamtown in the fall, New Hope & Ivyland, and Strasburg--many times to Strasburg in recent years with small boys at home and living only an hour away--too many Days out with Thomas.

I'm about to be 44 next week, have been in model trains for 39 years, and just simply prefer steam power at this point.

I've owned all kinds of diesels, including PA's, E's, F's, Alco Centuries, SD-40 variants, and the latest modern stuff, both in HO and in large scale--outside in my back yard.

However, I simply prefer steam.  I am utterly fascinated by the design, engineering, and operational aspects of steam power, and only now, after all these years in this hobby, am I truly able to appreciate the mundane small steam engines that worked everywhere doing everything, as well as the big power.

On my layout, diesels are on the way out for good.  All that remains are an Atlas ACL S-2 and a Bowser Alco C628 Demonstrator.  They both belong to my youngest son, otherwise, they would already have been gone on Ebay--with all the rest of the diesels.

I do not railfan anymore as there's nothing running everyday that I need to see, and no old freight car survivors out there in revenue service leftover from the transition era.

John
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: jward on June 07, 2012, 05:59:36 PM
there is still stuff from the transition era, just not in revenue service. norfolk southern, for one, still has southern gondolas from the 1930s in m of w service. you have to look for it but it's still out there.
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: Desertdweller on June 07, 2012, 08:34:58 PM
10 or 12 would be a little early for me.  My hometown railroads had all Dieselized by 1955, and the last passenger train ran in 1959, the year I turned ten.

My real rail exposure came when I was in college, in the rail corridor between Chicago and St. Paul.  I started riding these trains in 1968, then started using them to take trips home to Colorado.  The more I saw of this industry, the more interested in it I became.

And that is what I model today, passenger operations out of Denver in the mid-60's.  I rode Milwaukee Road and CB&Q passenger trains regularly.  I've ridden in both prototype dome cars on the CB&Q, the "Silver Dome" and the "Silver Castle".  Milwaukee Road Super Domes.  The Denver Zephyr and the California Zephyr.  The Empire Builder, the North Coast Limited, the Black Hawk and the Pioneer Limited.

It got to me to the point I was approached by a major railroad and offered a job.  As I worked in the rail industry, first in station operations, and then in train operations, my sentimental interest remained in the 1960's.  Steam was a seldom-seen novelty.  Everyday railroading was F's and E's, GP's and SD's.  I think of the era I model as the last of the "good days".

My beloved Milwaukee Road never ran into Denver, but their equipment sure did, on UP's "City" trains.  Denver was a major terminal for CB&Q.  Two fine smaller railroads called Denver home, the Denver and Rio Grande Western and the Colorado and Southern.  Santa Fe was one of the owners of the "Joint Line" to Pueblo, and ran a short train to connect with their main line at La Junta.  Two other railroads operated trains into Denver over regular Denver railroads: the Rock Island over the UP, and the Missouri Pacific over the Rio Grande.  Good thing for me my parents moved to Colorado while I was in college!

Les
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: WTierce1 on June 07, 2012, 10:12:12 PM
I prefer steam over diesel because of the Pure Awesomeness of the steamers. Even though I prefer steam, I like a few diesels as well such as the 45 ton. I have seen very few steamers in person because I am only 14, but my favorite steamer is hard to say. I love all the types of loggers, mainly the 3 Truck Climax, the PRR S-2 steam turbine but mostly the SP 4449 in the orange, red, silver and black. I have not seen the Daylight in person but I would love to. I am going to a train camp at the Tennessee Valley Rail Road near the end of the month. I would like to go to the Cass Scenic Rail Road in West Virginia to see all the logging locomotives. I live in Georgia, and my sister wants to go to the Kentucky Horse Parks, so we are thinking about going some time soon and do both in one trip.
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: jtgray on June 07, 2012, 10:50:07 PM
I have always like steam.  I was born to late to see mainline steam in action, park steam is what I first remember.  A small park in Panama City, Florida operated 3 narrow gauge Porters, a 2-6-0 ex-Argent Lumber, and 2 0-4-0T's converted to tender locomotives.  I loved this little pike.  As a teenager, I spent two different afternoons riding with the engineer in the cab of the 2-6-0, about 3 hours each time.  Those experiences sealed my love for small narrow gauge steam.  Sometime later I discovered Tweetsie Railroad and that has been my favorite ever since.  I remember when Bachmann introduced the radio controlled G scale set with the Tweetsie locomotive. I still have that locomotive plus several other versions of the ET&WNC G scale loco.  Now, I'm into On30 with the ET&WNC #12 and my first ever small layout based on part of the Tweetsie.  So for me, it is steam all the way. 
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: Len on June 08, 2012, 09:54:54 AM
I love steam, diesels, electrics, and trolleys. That's why my layout is "The KL&B Eastern Lines Railroad Museum", operating on what used to be a 35 mile short line, with equipment old and new running on a regular basis.

By the way, the KL&B defines "Eastern" as anything east of the Continental Divide.

Len
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on June 08, 2012, 11:10:41 AM
Quote from: 2-8-8-4 on June 07, 2012, 04:33:13 PM
Too many Days out with Thomas.

Heh. When I go to visit my dad in Lancaster, we stay out of Strasburg on "Days Out With Thomas" weekends.

Quote from: Desertdweller on June 07, 2012, 08:34:58 PM
And that is what I model today, passenger operations out of Denver in the mid-60's.  I rode Milwaukee Road and CB&Q passenger trains regularly.  I've ridden in both prototype dome cars on the CB&Q, the "Silver Dome" and the "Silver Castle".  Milwaukee Road Super Domes.  The Denver Zephyr and the California Zephyr.  The Empire Builder, the North Coast Limited, the Black Hawk and the Pioneer Limited.

I can't imagine what those who rode the "real" California Zephyr think of Amtrak's incarnation, but regardless, the eastbound ride from Grand Junction to Denver is totally awesome. I've done it twice, and was set to ride westbound from Chicago to Glenwood Springs this summer, but life got in the way.  :P

QuoteMy beloved Milwaukee Road never ran into Denver, but their equipment sure did, on UP's "City" trains.  Denver was a major terminal for CB&Q.  Two fine smaller railroads called Denver home, the Denver and Rio Grande Western and the Colorado and Southern.  Santa Fe was one of the owners of the "Joint Line" to Pueblo, and ran a short train to connect with their main line at La Junta.  Two other railroads operated trains into Denver over regular Denver railroads: the Rock Island over the UP, and the Missouri Pacific over the Rio Grande.  Good thing for me my parents moved to Colorado while I was in college!

Les

Since I've now begun visiting Colorado at least once a year, I've really gotten interested in the railroads that operated in and through the Colorado Rockies.  :)
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: Desertdweller on June 08, 2012, 12:30:20 PM
I've ridden post pre and post AMTRAK CZ's, including the current one.  The scenery is much the same except for the double-deck I-70 route through Glenwood Canyon.

The CZ is still one of AMTRAK's premier trains.  Only problem is, there is nothing that distinguishes it from any other Superliner train.  The "real" CZ was custom-designed for this route, with car interior designs themed to its route.  It even carried the train name on its letterboards.

The Denver Zephyr also featured a themed interior, but did not carry its train name on its exterior.

Although the trains resembled each other externally, the cars were not the same.  The Denver Zephyr carried one or two Budd Slumbercoaches, the CZ didn't.  The dome observation cars were different.  The CZ carried a dome sleeper-lounge-obs. with a teardrop end.  The DZ carried a dome-parlor-lounge-obs. with a square end.

On my N-scale railroad, the Kato CZ set fills this bill nicely for the CZ.  The DZ required kit-bashing of a couple of Con-Cor dome coaches to produce the dome-dormitory-cafe car and the dome-parlor-obs.  The latter required the squared end from a Rivarossi smooth-side obs.

Les
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: Skarloey Railway on June 08, 2012, 03:34:27 PM
If I followed what I saw around me when growing up it would be 'Hastings' DMUs and class 33 diesels, since that's all that worked on the nearest rail line (I'm a Brit) further off were a few preserved steam railways and I guess something of that stuck in my blood because my interest has always been steam. Thein around 1971 I read Tom Rolt's account of saving the Talyllyn Railway and my interest shifted purely to NG. Alongside this were TV westerns, both film and series (Caey Jones, being a prime example) that got me interested in early period US railroads. Add them together and my interest now is mostly US NG circa 1870-1925.

That said, it may be just something about me. I'm 51 but I don't wallow nostalgically in the music or culture I used to be part of and my taste in most things is pretty wide so my interest in RRs is the same. Of course, over where I am, not following the Great Western Railway classes me as unusual ;)
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: M1FredQ on June 10, 2012, 04:17:01 PM
I have to say I am fond of both.

I always liked steam. When I was a kid there was a steamer that came into

Chicago Union Station every year and I would beg my Dad to take me to see it.

My Dad loved trains too and he would take the whole family and we would make it a "Downtown Chicago" day.

BUT

We had Chicago&Northwestern and Milwaukee Road running F-3's and there was

something about those F-3's that had me also fond of them.

My Dad pulled us kids out of school so we could make one of the last runs to

California on the Santa-Fe El Capitan. I still remember that trip. The porters were

so nice I remember getting extra portions of food and ice cream.

When I was an exchange student in the then East Germany I road old World War 2

steam trains with the big DR(Deutsche Reich) on the side of each passenger car.

What a thrill !!!!

Back in the mid '90's while I was in Residency a Pharm Company took us out on

a dinner train and it was the old El Capitan Santa-Fe F-3 engine and B-Unit attached.

I think I almost choked up. Once I was married a year later I got back into trains

because I wanted one around the Christmas Tree and one by one  that got my kids interested

and now we are building our layout in the basement. I have picked up Williams

Steamers and Diesels including the GG-1's. The most modern one I have is a GP-7

at this time. I don't particularly care for current production models as they all look

all look alike. BUT more and more i am starting to see small lines pick up and rehab

and paint GP-7's  GP_9's and those NW-2 switchers. Driving through Chicago on

I-94 around North Ave I see a repainted GP-7 in Union Pacific Colors and a NW-2

Switcher in a nice Tuscan Red  that has Chicago and .....(can't make out the last

name. Even in Indiana I am seeing some older stuff from time to time.
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: 2-8-8-4 on June 11, 2012, 12:27:16 PM
Quote from: jward on June 07, 2012, 05:59:36 PM
there is still stuff from the transition era, just not in revenue service. norfolk southern, for one, still has southern gondolas from the 1930s in m of w service. you have to look for it but it's still out there.


During the late 1980's I saw some leftover transition era freight cars at Newberry Junction, PA.  There were PRR X-29 boxcars in mow service, and a few old 1950's (build date) gondolas still in revenue service at that time.  They are all long gone.

I pass by Enola Yard several times per day.  The mow gondolas are of all welded construction, generally Southern Railway, but 1960's or later build date cars.

Conrail and subsequently NS have used 1970's built all-welded Bethlehem Steel gondolas for mow service in the north--that's where several of the Reading Railroad class GHY cars ended up (though a few are still in revenue service).

Excepting two Erie Lackamoney 52' mill gondolas (exact car series modeled by Proto 2000)  I saw a couple years ago on a siding in the weeds at Harrisburg Yard, that appeared as if they hadn't moved anywhere in quite some time, I have not personally seen any legitimate transition era (not later rebuilds) freight cars in many years.

Assuming you are still finding some, you are very fortunate indeed. 

I photographed some of the last ones I had seen, and unfortunately, the photos weren't very good, and I'm just beyond railfanning anything now.

It helps that my one friend has already been detained by railroad police and if he ever so much as sets foot on one of the big eastern railroads again, he has been informed that he will be arrested for trespassing.  The idiot he was with gave up the driver's license to the railroad police cop--don't ever do that voluntarily--they log it and threaten you with prosecution the next time.

John
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: 2-8-8-4 on June 11, 2012, 12:35:27 PM
So for those reasons I'll stick to the available books and dvd's to assist my steam era modeling efforts.

Respectfully submitted--

John
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: Desertdweller on June 11, 2012, 06:05:52 PM
It's pretty bad when an industry that has "fans" chooses to treat them so shabbily.  While there are some legitimate security considerations these days, I think in a lot of cases this is just being used as an excuse to justify boorish behavior.

I would strongly recommend that railfans approached by railroad security police leave the property without an argument, but refuse to produce identification unless asked for it by actual police officers.  Railroad police are private security guards, and unless their authority is extended beyond company property (by being deputized), you are not obligated by law to follow their orders unless you are on company property.  If you are not on railroad property, the railroad police can call the civil police for assistance, but it is up to the civil police to determine if a law is being broken.

By the same token, if you are working for the railroad and are involved in a road crossing accident, do not give your identification to the civil police if you are on company property.  Once I was in a car-train accident where two boys drove a car into the side of my train.  Soon afterward, my car insurance took a steep hike.
When I asked why, I was told it was because I was involved in a car-train accident.  Yes, I was.  I was driving the train.  The rate increase was soon removed.

There are unfortunately people in this country who feel that a heightened security awareness means depriving law-abiding people of their rights.  These guys cannot figure out the difference between railfans and terrorists.  Their stupidity thus accomplishes one of the goals of the terrorists.

Les
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: jward on June 11, 2012, 06:33:26 PM
bottom line: stay off the railroad property unless you are legally entitled to be there. this is not the 1980s, and you can no longer get away with driving into a facility and taking a few photos. if you can manage to get with a group touring a facility you are ok.

boorish behaviour is not just restricted to railroad police. security guards and even real police tend to attract those with a napoleon complex. fortunately, most of the police are pretty nice once they see you are only taking a few photos from public property. still, there are a few with a bad attitude, and if you give them a hard time you will lose.

there are still plenty of good experiences to be had watching trains. even if, like me, you have no intention of modelling anything running to-day, it's still worthwhile to experience the thril.
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: Doneldon on June 12, 2012, 12:16:52 AM
Whether railroad police are actual police officers varies from place to place. Many ARE sworn peace officers who have every right to see ID. You can usually tell by the badge; real police badges have the state seal while rent-a-cops' badges don't.

I'm not sure what is the positive payoff for refusing to show ID, especially if we're hoping the officer will cut us a break, but make sure you aren't talking to a real cop if you do this. Trust me; you don't want a failure to cooperate with a police officer or obstructing justice arrest. Some cops will do this just to let you know who's boss.

The government has been worried about railroad security for a long while. They pulled many, many national park rangers and forest service rangers off of their regular duties so they could keep railroads, bridges, dams and nuclear plants under surveillance after 9/11. They trained railroad operating crews to watch for people watching trains and to call in the cavalry when they spotted someone, even persons NOT on railroad property. Add all of this to the railroads' security and liability concerns and you can see why bumming around a rail facility is likely to invite some awkward questions.

Contrary to an earlier poster's opinion, we have no constitutional or other right to go onto railroad (or any other not our own) property for any reason, or to stay there if instructed by police or railroad personnel to leave. Think of it as someone coming into your back yard, looking around, maybe opening things, taking a few photographs and peeking in the bedroom window. In either case, it is tresspassing, pure and simple. Yes, some railroads let us get away with this stuff a few decades ago but the lawyers put the kibosh on it even before 9/11. The fact that some railroads didn't enforce their tresspass rights doesn't mean that the tresspassers gained some kind of access easement. And is it stupidity to enforce tresspass rights against everybody, not just scary Arabic-looking terrorists (aka "profiling")? Not in the least. Enforcing the rights differentially would result in damages payouts by the railroads (or airports, land reclamation department, electric companies, et al.) and an inability to enforce the restrictions against anyone.

So ... stay off of private property and obey promptly if instructed to leave. Failing to do so or demanding non-existent rights could land you in jail.

                                                                                                                      -- D
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: jward on June 12, 2012, 12:33:11 AM
doneldon.

as a matter of fact back in the good old days many of us did get an "access easement."    it was called a release, and on many railroads you could walk into a facility, sign a release form stating you wouldn't sue them if you got hurt, and have free run of the facility. my dad and i were able to do this on many railroads, including but not limited to: western maryland, b&O, conrail, maine cantral, bangor & aroostook and southern. on most shortlines, you didn't even need to sign anything just let somebody know what you were up to. this was common practice 30-40 years ago.

as for constitutional rights, the courts have upheld the right to photograph what can be seen from public property, many times. it is fundamentally tied in with freedom of the press, as well as freedom of expression. matter of fact, a case of a train watcher being detained while pohotographing light rail trains from a station platform was recently decided in the photograqpher's favour. having paid the fare to ride the train gave him access rights to be on that platform. that is, of course, different from wandering around a busy freight yard without letting anybody know you're there. that is, and has always been, against the law.
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: 2-8-8-4 on June 12, 2012, 12:44:01 AM
A precious few railroads still are fan friendly.

Reading & Northern is one.  Stop at the main office.  Go inside and speak to the adminstrative assistant and nicely explain that you are a railfan and wish to photograph some trains, and they'll tell you what's coming and what's where on the railroad.  If I recall, one signs in (their book) as well--and they'll let you have reasonably free reign of the yard area--within certain limits.  Then sign out when you leave...

If you treat them as professionals, and follow their instructions, they usually return the same courtesy to you.

The rules are for your safety--never walk within 25' of the end of a cut of cars, etc.--because the slack can run out and the coupler then may even have enough force behind it to go right through one's body on impact.

Best regards--

John
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: Desertdweller on June 12, 2012, 12:41:41 PM
If you are not a railroad employee, you need to stay off railroad property unless you are in an area that is expressly open to the public (like a passenger station).

If you are asked to leave railroad property by any railroad employee, you need to do just that.  Railroad police are spread very thin.  Even major railroads usually assign them only to trouble spots, like freight yards in major cities.  So it is likely the person who asks you to leave will not be a railroad policeman, but some other railroad employee.  I've never been a railroad policeman, but have frequently had to ask people to leave.

You do not have to show your ID to anyone but a legitimate law enforcement officer.  Anyone telling you they are a policeman is required to identify themselves as such.  You have a right to see this ID, to protect your own privacy.  A real police officer will understand that and will show you their ID.  It is a serious crime to misrepresent yourself as being a police officer, and the police understand that.

With very few exceptions, if you are on public property you are allowed to photograph anything you can see with your eyes.  Exceptions would be things like sensitive military operations (like photographing ICBM's being changed out from missile silos).  It is my understanding that it is illegal to photograph police officers performing their duty in the State of Illinois.  I'll leave it up to your imagination as to why.

Les
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: Doneldon on June 12, 2012, 02:42:21 PM
Quote from: jward on June 12, 2012, 12:33:11 AM
as a matter of fact back in the good old days many of us did get an "access easement."    it was called a release,

as for constitutional rights, the courts have upheld the right to photograph what can be seen from public property, many times.

different from wandering around a busy freight yard without letting anybody know you're there. that is, and has always been, against the law.

Jeff-

Yes, many railroads did let us run around on their property, without even a release in most cases. But that doesn't mean we now have an easement which allows us to do the same thing today. Our access remains strictly a matter of what the railroads will allow, so we had no and we have no access easement. If I let my neighbor build part of his driveway across my property and years later get angry at him and tell him to remove it, he probably won't have to do so. Why? Because my failure to block him initially implies approval on my part and will in all probability be viewed by the courts as having granted him an access easement. The railroads surrendered no such rights when they let us poke around their property so we never did nor do we have an access easement.

Please note that I didn't mention anything about taking photographs, so the first amendment issues you discussed are irrelevant to my point. I explicitly stated "we have no constitutional or other right to go onto railroad (or any other not our own) property for any reason, or to stay there if instructed by police or railroad personnel to leave." We can certainly take photographs but we have no rights whatsoever to enter or remain on railroad property. But don't be so sure that your Constitutional right to free speech will allow you to take photographs anywhere. If you doubt me, try to take photographs at Groom Lake or anywhere else where signs prohibit photography even from non-government property. You'll find yourself in custody if they choose to push it and you might find your equipment confiscated, too. Our various precious rights are very broad but they are not unlimited.

You are correct in pointing out that shooting pics from a station platform is different from wandering around railyards, and not just from a safety perspective. Bu that confirms my point: it is illegal to be on railroad property without permission, and the fact that railroads did not consistently enforce this in years past does not mean they can't enforce access restrictions today.

The long and the short of it is that we have no right whatsoever to enter railroad or other private property without the property owner's permission. Ignore this at your own peril.
                                                                                                                     -- D
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: Desertdweller on June 13, 2012, 12:38:43 AM
There is no Constitutional Right to trespass.

The point about taking the effort to ask permission to be on company property is well-taken.  This was something I made a point of doing when I was a railfan.  Seldom was I flatly refused, but sometimes conditions would be placed on where I went and what I did.

I have been given permission to enter an engine facility, provided I took no pictures.  I have also been kicked off a railroad after being given permission by another official.  Just do what you are told (but don't give up your ID).

I have been on both sides of this situation.  I think a lot depends on where the railroad facility is located.  In small cities and towns, it is normal for railroad company officers and train crews to know the local railfans.  The biggest problems I have had with trespassers is the danger they present to themselves.  I have seen them climb through trains (even moving ones), step on rails, stand next to the end of equipment, climb beneath cars, including loaded hazmat tanks.

Most serious railfans know better than to try things like that.  You can pick out the new ones just by how they act.

Big cities have their own trespass problems.  Here the trespassers are less apt to be railfans, and more apt to be real troublemakers.  This is why railroad police are concentrated there.  Left of cargo from freight cars is a major problem.  Big city rail yards are big areas with lots of cover.  Things can be done in there out of the public eye.  Thus they can turn into crime scenes for drug deals and worse.

I once worked in a major city freight yard.  Trespassers were constantly walking through the yard.  These guys gave me the creeps.  On 90-degree plus days, you would see them wearing long-sleeved hoodies with the hoods up and their faces so far back you could not see their eyes.  They would walk like zombies across the tracks, never looking right or left, as if in a trance.  They would not look up if I blew the horn at them.

Les
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: M1FredQ on June 13, 2012, 11:09:16 AM
Just a quick note:

As rail fans let us stick to the Golden Rule

As a sovereign citizen of the United States of America we need to respect

each others property rights. You will score a lot of points and get a lot more

cooperation with added benefits if you get permission and seek out those in

authority to give prior approval for what you want to do.

Understand we live in a highly litigious society. There are those "looking to sue"

over any issue they can get money from. Railroads are only playing defensive

legally. But at the same time rail-fans play a big role in "getting the word out"

about railroads accomplishments and it is free advertising for them when you

go home and coffee clutch and talk about railroads in a positive manner!!!!

There was an article in TRAINS MAGAZINE about this new trend of non-railfan

teenagers getting their pictures taken on the train tracks!!!!! It's only a matter of

time

before some accident happens, a railroad is sued and ALL railroads forbid anyone

for what ever reason from going anywhere near their property!!!!

Bottom line: RESPECT RAILROAD PROPERTY!! Seek out someone who can give you

permission, better yet state what you want in writing have some supervisor sign it

or give you written permission.

Legally the hired RR Cops don't have Jurisdiction to ask you for ID BUT as a RailFan

YOU are an ambassador for your hobby and if Railfans have a reputation of being

friendly, cooperative, and respectful the railroads will be happy to accommodate you!!!

I personally have been a witness to the friendliness of a Railroad when I went with

a couple of my kids, sought out permission and proceeded to have a great time.!!!

On one occasion we had the local manager give us a personall tour of the yard and I

later brought some Cub-Scouts back with me and THEY want to take pictures. It's
great PR for them, all the visitors are happy, it gets the word out about Railroads,

and there is potentially some new kids interested in taking up this wonderful

Hobby!!!  The Railroads need us and we need them it's a win win if we just

follow the Golden Rule!!!!!!
Title: Re: Why some prefer steam and others diesel
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on June 13, 2012, 11:27:55 AM
As much as I love and prefer steam, I have to admit to a soft spot for F-unit diesels and fluted-aluminum passenger cars.

This might be because when I was a very small boy, my grandparents gave me an American Flyer HO "Pacific Clipper" ("North Coast Limited") passenger set, which I still have.