I searched the forum for this and didn't find the answer yet. I know the frequency is 27 MHz. My understanding from R/C cars is that there are six channels at that frequency. They are A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, and A6. Which one does the Big Hauler use? Thanks.
Hi, The early 1988/1989 Bachmann Big hauler 4-6-0 locomotives came in two frequencies 27 or 49 MHz. Bachman has never claimed or announced any kind of compatibility with RC car frequencies, nor have I seen anything on the forum since it was started. The only way I know of that you can find out is to get a transmitter capable of the six sub frequencies you mentioned and try each one until you find one that works. You may not find any of them work, as a great deal changed in RC world since 1988.
You are the pioneer in this subject, so please report back if you find any compatibility!!
Best of luck!!
Thanks for the information. Pioneer it is then. I do have crystal for all of those frequencies. It is outdated stuff as nearly everything of value is 2.4 GHz these days.
I am really surprised that one of the major G scale manufacturers doesn't offer a 2.4Ghz and Lipo battery option. I'd guess the reason is that it would not be compatible with DCC and other favored operating systems, and you would need a transmitter for every train. So I guess that won't happen.
R/C just makes more sense for me so it is either make an old Bachmann R/C/ loco work or convert using one of the available aftermarket systems that are just a little more money than I want to spend. If I convert it would definitely be to a 2.4 GHz system.
My belief is that those six channels are what were allocated by FCC for the 27 MHz frequency but I sure could be wrong about that. Maybe they all will work as Bachmann's note indicates a 27 MHz loco can be operated at the same time as a 49 MHz loco, whereas vehicles with the 6 different 27 MHz crystals can be independently operated at the same time.
I will report the results, I should be getting a loco in the post pretty soon.
RC and battery power is big in Large Scale! 2.4 Ghz systems are out there for a couple of years now. My 4-6-0's (all newer type chassis and drive train) have all been converted to Lithium Ion battery and a 2.4 Ghz receiver and transmitter. Bachmann does not now make any of the newer RC control systems, but other manufacturers do.
Still curious if one of the older crystals will work.
As for the 27 MHz stuff I found the following on the Internet.
26.995 MHz - Ch 1 (Brown)
27.045 MHz - Ch 2 (Red)
27.095 MHz - Ch 3 (Orange)
27.145 MHz - Ch 4 (Yellow)
27.195 MHz - Ch 5 (Green)
27.255 MHz - Ch 6 (Blue)
"In many toy-grade vehicles the specific channel within the 27MHz range is not specified and unchangeable making it more likely that two or more 27MHz vehicles operating in the same area will experience crosstalk or interference. The most common fixed frequency for 27MHz toys is channel 4 (yellow) at 27.145 MHz. RC toys with selectable bands (usually 3 or 6) generally have a selector switch on both the vehicle and the controller that let the operator select a different band or channel (designated by letter, number, or color) so that two 27MHz toys can play together."
The channels are different in Australia and in the UK, but I would think that Bachmann would have to use the US standard for locomotives sold here.
I hope to get an R/C Bachmann Loco by this weekend and will let you know how my testing goes. From what i understand, the receiver and speed control are both on the same board so it might be difficult or impossible to upgrade just the receiver to 2.4 GHz. Also they would not have a lipo cutoff circuit, so would be limited to Alkaline, NiCad or NIMH batteries.
I am very interested in your conversions. Electronics made for R/C cars - especially ESCs - seem like overkill as far as motor capacity while only handling 2S or 3S lipo batteries (11.1 V max). The most promising source for large scale trains that I have found is Remote Control Systems in Australia - but still, even with the Planet Tx and Hobby King lipos it looks like well over $100/locomotive. What system did you decide upon and how difficult was the conversion? Thanks.
Welcome to battery R/C.
Yes indeed the specialist R/C ESC's I make are more expensive than those designed for cars, boats and planes. That is because they do much more than the simpler ESC's. For a start they can handle 24 volt input. They have reversing, unlike some ESC's that do not. They also have constant brightness directional lighting outputs and four sound triggers.
That is just the hardware. They offer programming options for various types of locos, assign sound trigger outputs to either momentary or latch ON - OFF.
BTW, you can assign (as in bind) as many RX's (locos) to one TX as you wish. What you cannot do with RCS ESC's using 2.4 Ghz stick radios, is run multiple locos controlled independently from one TX.
Actually if you can keep track of what one loco is doing, you might be able to control two independently on the one track. Any more, forget it.
I would not waste money on the old radio controlled 4-6-0. The plastic wheels alone are a major detriment and the loco itself is not all that great a runner. Unfortunately the Large scale train hobby is expensive and you are not likely to find low cost solutions in the RC or sound aspect of it.
You are correct that there is no cutoff protection circuit in the 4-6-0 for Lipo or other lithium battery chemistry. The boiler is designed to hold D Cell alkaline batteries, and if your 4-6-0 is complete you get a small wire harness with a connector that allows use of a Nicad or Nimh battery pack.
I use only Anniversary 4-6-0's with a working backup light. These are great runners and my first one from 2000 is still running like a fine sewing machine.
The RCS system is a good system, but I use the Aristo-Craft 2.4 Ghz Revolution. It is an easy conversion. Cut two wires on the loco to isolate the motor from the track. The rest is done in the tender. Modify the tender to allow removal of the coal load and cut out the plastic on the top of the tender under the coal load to allow battery changes from the top. Cut the wires to the rear light, connect the two from the loco to the motor output on the receiver. connect the wires from the rear light to the light output on the receiver. Add a connector ( I use a mini Tamiya) of your choice to the receiver battery input terminals. Use your favorite battery pack connect it and you are done. I use a pack made up of 4 2600 Mah 3.7 volt Lithium Ion batteries. The 14.8 volt output is perfect for this locomotive, and gives great run time. The revolution has sound triggers if you want to go that route. Adding sound to the above is also relatively easy. connect the chuff sensor, then connect the input wires then two wires to the speaker and you are done..
Above all have fun!!
Thank you both for your responses. You have given me a bunch to think about. More importantly using R/C seems a little clearer and more possible than it did before.
The installation on the Aristo-Craft version does pretty straightforward. I'll have to revisit the RCS site to compare. The Aristo-Craft system does seem to be more sophisticated in terms of multiple train control, but may be more than I need for my simple layout. I certainly do want to use sound - but either system may work for that.
Again thank you both for the very helpful comments.
You are most welcome, you may also find this post of interest,
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,20410.0.html
You will find some excellent info on the revolution on the Aristo forum and in their online magazine called the insider, they keep all the back issues on line. There are many good articles on other systems as well. Perhaps some of the other members will make a recommendation as well.
Again have fun.
Bill
Thank you Loco Bill for the great battery information.
I was looking at this: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__14843__Turnigy_5000mAh_4S_25C_Lipo_Pack_USA_Warehouse_.html but it is pretty large (roughly 6"X2"X1 1/2"). Your battery box solution and GTL batteries look better to me. It is smaller and it also has discharge protection which I don't thing the Turnigy Lipo has.
Well, I got my R/C loco in the post this morning. I can't try it out right away since I don't have 6 D batteries. I understood from what I had read that these locos also had a connector for a Nicad/NIMH battery pack. I don't see one in the loco I bought unless I have to take it apart to get to the connector. Maybe I do? So buy some batteries or locate the connector.
UPDATE: Now I see I need an adapter cable. I wrote Bachmann parts, but don't hold out a lot of hope that they still stock it.
OR if anyone knows what type of connector plugs into the loco that would be great. It appears to be a 4 pin (not sure why) female connector. I could then make my own adapter cable. Or even if someone has the cable and could take a close-up of the connector, that could help. Thanks.
Here's a picture:
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b97/racersolo/Flyer%20Marx/bachmannadapter.jpg)
Sadly, Bachmann Parts will not be of help due to the old age of the loco. You will have to check you local electronic store to find the four pin plug, the other end is a standard Tamiya connector found on many battery pack. I am not sure why the four pins, but it may have to do with two powering the receiver and motor, and the other two powering the smoke circuit. You may be able to trace it down by taking things apart.
If I still had one of those connectors I would gladly send it your way. The Locomotives were only sold in sets, so like the tracks and other two cars and the cable are long gone. At least you got the transmitter!!!
I can't help with the adapter, but I would strongly suggest you get the 6 D cells and see if the locomotive runs and is controllable before investing in extras. Many (or most) of these locomotives had relatively short lives. They were delicate to maintain and unreliable. That especially applies to the R/C system. This is evidenced by the fact that the production period was fairly short, and they haven't been available for lots of years.
As to battery choice, the 6 D cells connected in series produce 9Volts. Putting a 12.4 or higher voltage battery pack in the locomotive will certainly result in its early demise. That means you need to have voltage limiting, another complication.
The recent versions of the 4-6-0 are hugely more reliable. Of course they require aftermarket controls if you want R/C, but that time and money investment will last you a long time.
Happy RRing,
Jerry
Thanks to both of you. Good advice about trying it out before investing more money. I do have a bunch of 7.2 (6 cell) and 8.4 (7 cell) NIMH packs that I had hoped to try.
"At least you got the transmitter!!!" Alas, no. That is why I was wanting to try out a 27 MHz R/C transmitter with the different crystals to see which (if any) worked.
I was trying to get away on the cheap here - but without the cable it doesn't look like that is going to happen. I don't expect it to be great or up to par with newer equipment, but there is some satisfaction for me in getting older stuff to work.
I sent an email to Bachmann service to see if they could help me with identifying the loco plug and how to wire it. I'll see if they respond.
I am new to this, and after what I have read and what you have informed me, I do plan on picking up an Annie and putting in a modern RC system (Aristo Evolution or RCS) and the Loco Bill battery pack in the near future. I'm having to make decisions on what to buy first. I have a small ""test" loop set up in my basement for now. I have figured out plans for a more satisfying outdoor circuit. So I'm thinking, build the track before buying more expensive equipment. But that track is pretty expensive too.
Again, thank you for your help.
Without the transmitter, I believe you are really out of luck.
Over the years I have talked to several folks who tried using alternative 27 MHz or 49 MHz (twin stick) transmitters, but they were not able to get the locomotive to move. I have never seen any technical specifications for the locomotives, nor met anyone who claimed to have successfully used a substitute transmitter.
As to more modern technologies, there are more systems than the RCS and Aristocraft. I have several RCS Elite systems controlling Bachmann 1:20.3 scale locomotives. Tony had a great system, but he moved from a shirt pocket sized transmitter to the twin stick systems. I am not prepared to have to use a transmitter that is larger than the locomotive, so will no longer purchase his systems. If the twin stick transmitter doesn't bother you, either the RCS or the American made G Scale Graphics systems are very good. I believe they share some of their controller technologies. See G Scale Graphics at: http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/DelTapparo/ (http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/DelTapparo/)
Some people swear by and some swear at the Aristocraft system. As opposed to the RCS and G Scale Graphics systems, the Aristocraft system is 100% proprietary. No chance of spare transmitters, crystals, receivers, or other components being available at the local R/C airplane and car model shop.
One other subject: Are you certain you want to start by acquiring 1:22.5 scale locomotives? Be aware that 1:22.5 scale (the scale of the big hauler series) represents a prototype gauge of 1 meter. That is really rare or non-esistant in N. America. If your interest is in N. American narrow gauge, I would recommend that you consider going with 1:20.3 scale equipment as that represents 3' gauge prototypes.
Happy RRing,
Jerry
Hi:
Here's one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bachmann-Radio-Control-Transmitter-for-Big-Hauler-Battery-Powered-Locomotives-/330750080181?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4d023db4b5
Wade
Hi:
_____
| o | ----------- Gray Gray & Brown go to Red wire on battery
| o | ----------- Brown
| o | ----------- Blue
| o | ----------- Black Black & Blue go to Black wire on battery
_____
End View of female plug with alignment tabs
It looks alot like a plug that would be on a computer motherboard. Maybe the local computer geek could help you. Anyone who sells RC stuff would have the battery connection if you don't have one already. Good Luck.
Wade
Thanks Wade for the good info, The transmitters do seem to show up on Ebay fairly frequently. I had no trouble running the RC Big Hauler using a 12 volt NiCad pack. I ruined the wheels first.
I think you will be very happy with the latest Anniversary 4-6-0.
Thanks for the heads-up Wade. I sent the seller a message to ask if he might also have the R/C cable. You never know.
Jerry, I wonder if the folks who tried the 27MHz stick transmitters tried all of the six channels. Of course I have no idea if the Bachmann receiver is set to any of those channels, but since I have an old tx and all 6 of the crystals, I thought I would try it out. It doesn't sound promising, but I will try it out and report back.
Thank you for the information on the R/C systems. I'll check out G Scale Graphics.
As for the scale issue, no I am not sure. While the difference between one meter and one yard may not be the most important to me, there sure are a lot of beautiful locomotives in the 1:20.3 scale. The cost is a bit daunting, but I'm not looking at developing a big empire - if I went that direction, a Consolidation for sure and maybe a Shay (and in my dreams a K27). Right now I am planning as much "garden" as "railroad" in my garden railroad and have not started laying outdoor track. Much to do with landscape work and building a pond and stream.
I have purchased some R1 (24" radius) curve track, which I don't think I would be able to use with many locomotives, especially the larger 1:20.3 ones. So I think I need to bite the bullet on that and make sure my track will handle wherever I end up equipment-wise.
Y'all have been very helpful. I appreciate all of the really good information you have given to me in a short period of time.
Craig
UPDATE: And thank you Wade for the wiring information. When I Googled 4-pin connector I did see a bunch that were used for connecting disk drives, so I think you are right about a computer connection. Interesting if Bachmann in the 90's would have used computer parts.
Loco Bill, I do have a metal-wheel "donor" if it turns out I can get the R/C Big Hauler to work.
Well I might be able to try this experiment. I found an old computer disk drive and pulled the cable from it. One connector was 4-pin. It took a little Dremel work to remove some of the alignment tabs, but now it fits into the receptacle in the locomotive.
I soldered a Dean's plug on the other end, splitting the wires according to Wade's diagram. I could not, however, figure out how the plug I have would orient to Wade's, so I may have things reversed pos to neg. I don't think that should matter as long as there isn't a short. It's 50/50. As I have it now POS is going to the two right pins and NEG to the two left pins as you look at it from the rear of the loco. If you see this Wade and I have it wrong, let me know. Otherwise it will be trial by fire here in a few minutes.
Anyway, I'm charging a 7-cell 8.4 volt stick battery. As soon as it is charged I'll see if I can get power. Standing by are a 27MHz Tx and all 6 crystals.
Since you have not laid or hopefully bought too much R1 curved track, I recommend a minimum of 10 foot diameter for mainline and larger if you have the space. the R1 could be used on relatively unimportant sidings. If you get a K-27 you will definitely want larger than 10 foot diameter.
Good luck with the experiment. Reversing the polarity will not be a problem if the transmitter works, just that forward will be reverse etc
Since you asked about the cable hopefully you asked about the transmitter as well.
Well, success - at least partially. I made a power cable from a 4-pin computer disk drive cable with the 4-pin connector shaved a little to fit the receptacle opening in the loco and a male Dean's connector on the other end (wired as per Wade's diagram).
The 4-pin plug seems to be fine. I connected a 7-cell 8.4v stick battery, turned the right switch on the loco to "on" and the wheels started turning. It is a bit noisy.
Now for the Tx test. All of the six crystals affected the locomotive although it seemed like #6 (blue) had the finest grain control. I only have pistol transmitters in 27 Mhz and speed control was effected with the steering knob which I think is channel 1 on the 2-channel transmitter. The throttle trigger (ch. 2) had no effect. Maximum loco speed was at the neutral steering position going to full stop when the steering was turned to the peg (which direction - clockwise or counterclockwise - affected the speed depended on the reversing switch on the tx).
Here's the weird part (at least to me). With the Tx turned off, the loco goes full speed forward. With the Tx turned on, the loco only goes in reverse although speed can be controlled with the steering control (ch. 1) on the Tx. Perhaps if the battery connection were switched, the opposite would be the case. I'll try that. But I don't quite understand why the direction would change with the Tx on and off.
For what it is worth I used a Tactic 27 Mhz pistol style 2-channel transmitter.
Hi:
The instructions say to turn the transmitter on first then the loco. I remember that the engine will run wide open forward if the engine is turned on without the transmitter. Do you have any trim adjustment on the steering?
Wade
It has been my experience in racing R/C cars for 12 plus years that items that are sold as either 27 or 49 MHz are on what is referred to as wide band....meaning any thing on any form of its frequency will affect its operation....including a CB radio if tuned to a frec. in that range..... on a 2 channel transmitter.....steering is channel 1 and as the loco didn't have steering ....the throttle would have been channel 1 having no second channel....you could rewire the loco to run off r/c equipment but you will rewire the better part if not all of the loco and will require more than 2 channels and would most likely be cheaper to pick up a newer loco and a dcc control set up....Aristro Crafts basic train engineer is pretty cheap, can be wired into most anything and I have heard of people having pretty good luck with it. And then there is the issue with the plastic wheels on metal track...unless you have some of the plastic track.......Later All.....S.B.
Hi Wade. I tried it in all sequences. With the transmitter on, either before or after the loco, the train runs in reverse. The trim did help to get top speed in the neutral steering position. The loco does as you say - running full speed forward - with the transmitter off.
The transmitter that is designed to operate the loco can run in forward or reverse. Somehow the signal from my 2-channel 27 MHz pistol transmitter is interpreted by the loco as reverse only.
I also have run R/C cars, Sleeping Bear, but not as long as 12 years, and I have almost exclusively used 2.4 GHz. I believe you are right about the channel usage. With an R/C car the throttle control can be used to run the car forward or backward (with the ESC programmed that way) - and that is all done on one channel (ch. 2 with 27 MHz). Steering (on ch 1) does not have to be programed as the servo seems to understand how to respond to clockwise and counterclockwise manipulations. I'm not sure how re-wiring would make a difference as I think the response of the loco's motor control is pre-programed to respond to signals from Bachmann's proprietary transmitter that are somehow different from a "regular" R/C 27 MHz transmitter. I certainly could be all wrong about that.
As always, thanks for you comments. It feels like I am a step closer to understanding with each comment.
Sleeping Bear is correct.
The R/C is very basic 27 MHz SuperHet RF that will respond to just a simple burst of signal energy anywhere in the 27 MHz band. So, my guess is the loco has latched onto the broad 27 MHz carrier wave for the Digital Proportional signal.
Hi Tony. I think I understand what you are saying though I am not at all familiar with the terms "Superhet" or "Digital Proportional Signal."
Here in the US as I understand it there are six sub-frequencies in the 27 MHz band that are used for R/C communication. The sub-frequencies range from 26.995 MHz to 27.225 MHz. Each sub-frequency is capable of carrying (at least) 2 channels of information (e.g. steering and throttle) between the Tx and Rx. Each of these channels carries information that can be interpreted by an ESC as left/right in degrees of turn and forward/reverse in degrees of speed.
I believe you are saying that the Bachmann loco receiver does not distinguish sub-frequencies and further is "latching on" to the information that informs the motor control to reverse?
I will put it another way.
They work totally differently even though they are on the same frequency band.
So no, the loco RX is not capable of doing what you want it to. Even though the RX is picking up some sort of signal it responds to, that is really a fluke.
OK. Thanks. It appears that Bachmann works in mysterious ways.
Technology changes.
I would expect Bachmann to use different RF technology to that which it used when they brought out their very first Large Scale loco and set all those years ago.
The set was made to a price and did the job it was designed to do quite well. My advice is that Bachmann sold enough of these early sets to amortise the cost of the tooling for all subsequent Big Hauler series locos and equipment.