I have the following trollies, all from Bachmann's catalog:
Bachmann PCC
Bachman Spectrum Birney
Bachman Spectrum Peter Witt
Here are my observations when run on my DC powered little street car layout:
The Bachman PCC looks good but the body is really too high on the chassis and it looks too tall. It has only one powered truck. It runs "kind of" smoothly at low speeds, but not perfectly.
The Spectrum Birney has only one powered truck (DUH!). It runs smoothly but is upset by passing through the one Backmann switch on the mainline. It doesn't derail or anything. It just bounces around a tiny bit as it passes over the switch. It is not as quiet as the PCC with some gear noise.
The Spectrum Peter Witt has both trucks powered and runs smoothly at low speeds. It passes over the switch smoothly. It has gear noise, worse in forward than in reverse. I can actually hear it running from another room it is so loud being much louder than the Birney.
In general the more expensive Spectrum trollies are better, in my opinion, except for the gear noise. All have several hours of running on them, back and forth on the 8 foot straight main track. I guess if you pay more you get more (??).
I just ordered the Con-Cor PCC (model of diesel powered version). It is priced at about the same level as the Spectrum Peter Witt. Can I expect the same performance out of it?
Anyone else got a different source of HO trollies from the 1920 to the 1960's? In searching the internet I found the Bowser PCC trolley but I was not impressed when I read their instruction for lubrication. They seem more like the Bachman trolley at the Spectrum price and are only single truck powered. They look cheap internally.
Anyway if anyone would like to comment then feel free, positive or negative. I'm just gathering info. Thanks.
LDBennett
Comments about trolleys:
The Bachmann PCC is, or was, not much better than a toy; the comment about the body riding high is a common complaint on PCC and other similar models, as is (or was) the general operating characteristics. I've never worked on one, so I'm afraid I can't help you on how to get it to run a bit better.
I haven't worked on the other Bachmann trolleys either, but I can tell you there is a reason 4-wheelers were called "bobbers" and "bouncers!" I should know, I've ridden one! Just consider it prototypical action, which it is!
I don't know if you are looking at a current Bowser PCC (which has a can motor), or a classic all-metal job, which had its own custom motor running vertically on a swiveling power truck. I was personally satisfied (and still am) with those dinosaurs, even though they required tinkering to get to run well, and the PCC body rode too high as well. The PCC also suffered, in my opinion, by having a sheet metal floor instead of a cast floor as used by the other trolleys in that line. It acted like a sounding board in a piano, and amplified every sound, vibration, squeak, grind and other noise you can imagine! At the same time, though, like Bowser's steam engines, those cars were virtually indestructible!
I don't know if you're familiar with this site, but I highly recommend it:
http://www.trolleyville.com/trolleyville.shtml
Have fun.
Bowser has some nice trolley parts to improve some trolleys. This is model railroading. Make what you like.
Rich
LD-
Adding weight and globbing a little caulk on the floor will improve operation and noise.
-- D
Thanks guys.
i've reviewed the drawings on the Bachmann and Spectrum models and they seem well made and are a lot more complicated than I thought they would be. The Bowser PCC seems rudimentary compared to the others (the latest plastic version). Hopefully the Con-Cor will be at least as well made as the Spectrum. And I am not impressed by the Bachman PCC (as stated by J3a-614). It is more toy like. The Spectrum Peter Witt so far is the best but too bad about all the gear noise.
What is interesting is that there seem to be so few trolly manufacturers of trolleys from the mid part of the 20th Century.
Another thing that perplexes me is that Bowser gives instruction on lubing their trolly (because it comes without lube to avoid the grease melting and ruining the paint job during shipping). The Bachmann and Spectrum instruction never mention lubrication at all. Did I miss something? The gear noise on the Peter Witt is so loud I seriously doubt lubrication will lower the noise level. I also worry that the open gears will collect dust and debris off the layout tracks.
As a general observation after over 50 years away from the hobby, it surprises me that so many of the manufactures names are still around. Here is the way it was over 50 years ago for those that survived:
Bowser...awesome engine kits (had a Pacific by them that was awesome)
Athearn... rail car kits made of wood and tin with sides pre-painted
Atlas...flex track
Roundhouse...cast metal rail car kits with pre-painted sides
Bachmann...N gage trains from Europe, toys
Kadee....couplers
Marklin...European train sets, toys
Mantua...engine kits, a bit clunky
Walthers... detailed passenger car kits
LDBennett
have you tried lubing the gears to quiet the noise?
I have a Bowser PCC trolley and it runs great. There is a decoder made especially for the Bowser which I installed and it runs very smooth. It will go up an incline that rises 5 inches in 3 feet with bullfrog snot on the wheels. If you do install a decoder watch out for the thin wires.
I have the Birney and the Con-Cor PCC. My Birney runs quite well, though as is typical of two-wheel pick-up it is sentitive to dirty wheels and/or track. The Con-Cor PCC is an excellent model and a very fine runner, even at very slow speeds. My only quibble is that the headlight and the interior lights are the blue-white variety rather than the "golden glow" that would be more correct for these pre-war cars. Note that the Bowser PCC is a post-war version with the standee windows.
As for the larger issue of trolley modeling, it has been pretty much a fringe part of the hobby even back in the "good ol' days". Following on my general theory that folks model what they are familiar with, most cities had lost their trolleys soon after WWII. I think you'll find most trolley modelers are about ready to qualify for Medicare (me included). There is also the matter of deciding if you want to install working overhead. It's rewarding when it's done, but buiding it is not for the faint of heart.
ebtnut:
I am not ready for overhead or even DCC control.
Ready for Medicare? How about on it for five years already. I do remember the trolleys in the LA area and rode on them in the day: Yellow cars-J line, and Red Cars from Long Beach to Downtown Los Angleles. The last ride was probably 1955 but I did park in the dim lighting in a remote Red Car terminal with my then girlfriend in about 1962. We were oblivious to the trolleys. :-0 :-0
LDBennett
Thanks all for the comments. It inspired me to look into the Bachmann PCC.
I took the body off (one screw!). And indeed it is no more than a toy. It has a tiny can motor with an enclosed gear train inside the powered truck, all as one unit. The powered truck is so tall that the body can not be dropped to where it belongs. Currently the bottom of the doors are about 1/2 inch above the top of the ties of the track. The body is one piece (unlike the Spectrum trolleys). The unpowered truck end of the trolley is very light compared to the rather heavy other end. There is no flywheel, either, as used in the spectrum trolleys.
So the bottom line is the body can not be dropped. I added some stick on auto wheel balance weights over the unpowered truck. It now runs smoother with less weaving and bouncing. I'll not be buying anymore Bachmann trains or trolleys if this is typical of their construction techniques. It was inexpensive compared to the really nice Spectrum trolleys, so you get what you pay for. I think the plastic Bowser PCC trolley, based on the internal pictures I've seen, is more like the Bachmann trolley than the Spectrum. I'll not buy one of those either. Now I am wondering how well made is the Con-Cor PCC Diesel powered trolley I just bought that gets delivered next Tuesday?
I'm not guessing at how well done the spectrum models are, as they both came with a detailed parts schematics . Also, I had to take the roofs off of each one to remove the DCC controller boards to replace them with the dummy plugs. I was impressed! They also run much smoother than the Bachmann PCC.
Now, how do I reduce the gear noise from the Spectrum Peter Witt trolley? If Dallee ever gets their "Traction Sounds" module on the market then maybe I can cover up the gear noise with authentic trolley sounds (it would be a stationary install).
LDBennett
The Bachmann trolleys (Brill and PCC) are very inexpensive units, so it is unfair to compare them to the ConCor, new style (plastic) Bowser, or Spectrum trolleys. They can still be a starting point for acceptable models if you are willing to work on them, but lowering them will require significant modification or a new drive. The older Bowser metal trolleys tended to be a bit noisey and a bit on the fast side, but they were durable units and easy to work on. The current run of Bowser PCC cars have a nicely made plastic shell and a more modern drive made in China. The ConCor PCC is similar to the new Bowser in quality, and fortunately, it's well molded plastic body has a different window arrangement than the Bowser, so it's not redundant. The Spectrum Birney and Peter Witts are excellent products with good quality mechanisms. The Birney operates similar to the prototype, and due to it's short wheelbase with just 4 wheels tends to hunt and lurch a bit as it goes down the track, and especially through switches. Switches with isolated frogs are also likely to cause stalling or hesitation due to limited pickup points.
Bill in FL
railtwister:
The Birney* and Peter Witt trollies, as sold by Bachmann, are actually Spectrum models. As such they are priced at more than twice the little Bachmann PCC trolley. I understand that it is unfair to compare them. The ConCor and Bowser are priced pretty close to the Spectrum trollies so the comparison is valid, I think.
As an aside, I think the Spectrum trolleys (Brill and Peter Witt) are made awesomely with the only "fly in the ointment" being the gear noise in the Peter Witt.
Anyway, along the lines of making the Bachmann PCC trolley lower and perhaps run better, I found that Bowser makes a drive/chassis conversion for it. It appears at first look that the body might be able to be lowered on the Bowser chassis. The drive part looks different than the Bachman setup with a drive shaft rather than a truck unit with a stuck on tiny motor. It appears you might also be able to add a flywheel to it too (I have a lathe and probably could make something up). Anyway I'm investigating it. There is nothing more rewarding to me that to "fix" something even though it may not make sense dollar wise. It may be the only way to get a PCC trolley that is powered correctly and has a more scale height.
Thanks for you comments.
LDBennett
*modified from Brill...Sorry about that. The Brill is indeed a Bachmann model and not a Spectrum model.
Well, the Con Cor diesel powered PCC trolley came today. It IS nicely made, runs smoothly, has minimal gear noise, and looks very good. The funny thing is it takes about twice the throttle setting of the small Bachmann power throttle to run at the same speed as any of the other three trolleys I have (two Spectrums and one basic Bachmann). It has extensive lighting and that may be the loss of power. Or maybe it is just the gear ratios. Anyway. That makes no difference to me.
I ordered the Bowser re-motor conversion for the Bachmann PCC. It does lower the body (or so they claim) by about a scale foot.
LDBennett
LD-
It's only a guess on my part but perhaps the motor is running at an higher speed which is reduced by the gears. That might account for the increased electrical draw and the minimal gear noise.
-- D
higher gear ratios are a good thing. they mean better low speed control, and a much more realistic top speed.
LD,
You are going through quite a Rip Van Winkle experience! I hope you are pleased to discover Bachmann and Life-Like are not the companies they used to be.
Does anyone know if there is actually a prototype for the Con-Cor Diesel PCC car? It sounds like it could be plausible, if rather unlikely. I cannot recall ever seeing a photo or example of one.
Well, Back to the Future! I saw on the Internet yesterday that June 27, 2012 was the future date Doc's Delorean time machine was set to.
Les
Desertdweller:
http://www.con-cor.com/PCCRailbus.html
for the history of the rail bus using the PCC body. But I suppose it is not real but only a possibility.
LDBennett
i have a book on the new haven's passenger operations. they did alot of experimentation with equipment which is all covered in the book. the mack railbusses are in there but there is no mention of a diesel powered pcc car. the prototype photo shows a new haven car, but i can't find any references to it other than con cor's site. what gives?
I think Con Cor made it clear that it was not real but done by them as a experiment that could have been done but that probably was not. Did I read Con Cor wrong?
Some model railroaders do scale copies of reality where others make up a story and more or less follow it. I think the diesel powered PCC is a fantasy. Think about what it would take to build an actual real PCC electric trolley into a diesel electric trolley. How much seating would be lost to house the diesel electric conversion unit. I think it would not really be practical. The PCC car is not designed to have a diesel motor inside without some serious compromises, in my opinion.
I do not run an overhead power system for my little layout (that's the first break from reality). My layout is point to point and three of my four trolleys are the type that would only run in the forward direction (one pole and the driver station at the front). But I have to run them backwards on the return trip (that's the second break from reality). Most are not setup with the body of the trolley low enough and have a several scale feet for a potential person to climb to enter the car (that's still another break from reality). It goes on forever with my layout and trolleys. It is after all (for me) about the trip not the destination when it comes to building this layout. Having a fantasy Diesel electric PCC car with no pole is just another break from reality. I like it!
On another note I got the Bowser conversion for my Backman PCC HO trolley. I ran the bare chassis on the track and it is very quiet, relatively smooth at slow speeds, and will lower the body on the chassis by what they say is a scale foot. That should make it look more natural. The lesson from the Bachmann (NOT Spectrum) PCC trolley is that Bachmann motive power is more toy like than model railroad like. I think I'll not be buying any more Bachmann motive power stuff. The Spectrum stuff they sell seems to be top notch. The price differential probably reflects that.
LDBennett
You get what you pay for. The Bachmann PCC car tooling is at leat 30 years old and has served us admirably for a very economically priced product (it would be a good candidate for a well deserved upgrade....).
The Bachmann Peter Witt trolley and the newer Birney trolley are second to no other manufacturer. They feature state of the art electronics and drive mechanisms and yes you will pay a little more for them since they are higher quality products.
Quote from: LDBennett on July 04, 2012, 11:00:04 AM
I think I'll not be buying any more Bachmann motive power stuff. The Spectrum stuff they sell seems to be top notch. The price differential probably reflects that.
LDB-
Please recognize that Bachmann is like many large companies in various industries in that they try to offer products for a range of potential customers. Just as General Motors offers Chevrolets and Cadillacs, Bachmann offers regular line and Spectrum models to appeal to both entry-level or economy-minded model railroaders and those of us who expect better detail, more reliability and smoother operation.
Don't throw the baby our with the bathwater; there is a real place in the modeling market for less expensive equipment. If nothing else, the entry-level materials make it easier for new hobbyists to get into model railroading which helps grow the customer base for the more expensive and higher quality items later. Bachmann does a better job of producing models for both ends of this continuum than any of the other manufacturers, IMHO, and I applaud their efforts in doing so.
-- D
Doneldon:
I started this layout a couple of months ago. The layout before this one was taken down some 60 years ago. To say I'm new to today's model railroading is an understatement. I learned from this Bachmann purchase what I wanted and what I did not want. I understand there is a need for bottom end products. I just did not realize the differences until I had both a Bachmann trolley and a Spectrum trolley.
I actually picked the Bachmann PCC because it was a Los Angeles trolley (well, kind of, since the real ones were narrow gage) that brought back memories of riding the LA "J" cars as a kid with my mom. The Bowser upgrade will make it look right and run better and I am satisfied both with the results and the cost to me.
I have tried the Bachmann trolley, two Spectrum trolleys, one Con Cor trolley, and the Bowser conversion (which I assume is a measure of a complete Bowser trolley). Actually only the Bachmann was a disappointment and I have fixed that now.
LDBennett
do not judge the bachmann locomotives by what you found under the hood of the pcc. it sounds like the pcc uses the old pancake motored power trucks that bachmann used in the 1980s. most if not all of the bachmann diesels now have good motors driving both trucks through worm and reduction gears, the same as most other locomotives. the only flaw, and it's a minor one, is that certain diesels lack flywheels. i say it is a minor flaw because the motor is good enough quality to overcome the lack of a flywheel. yardmaster indicated it was time to upgrade the pcc to the standards of the other locomotives in the line. dare we hope?
i do agree that the old pancake motor stuff wasn't worth my time or money.
jward:
I don't know what a "pancake" motor looks like but my Bachmann PCC had a very small round can motor. The thing is, the body was mounted so high on the chassis that the look was wrong. In browsing of the Internet I found that Bowser made a motor conversion for the Bachmann PCC that included lowering the body to the correct scale height so it would look right.
My disdain for the Bachmann PCC was not the motor at all but the look of the body being too high on the chassis. For that alone I got the Bowser motor change as it included a new chassis as well, to lower the body.
I made the conversion yesterday. I had to do away with the lighting and had to cut out the plastic cast mounting cylinder in the middle of the body (inside, of course). i was left with a plastic shell body. Then two metal pieces had to be glued into the body inside so that the new chassis had mounting points. The instruction were not very good but I got it right, none the less.
The Bowser motor is awesome. It will run slower than any other trolley I have (Spectrum, Con-Cor, or the original Bachmann PCC). It runs smoothly and quietly. It is definitely an improvement. The body is definitely lower on the chassis and now looks right. I am very pleased with this modification and the resultant PCC. My investment is actually no more than the Spectrum Peter Witt trolley but the details on the Peter Witt are phenomenal by comparison. I don't feel cheated by Bachmann as I got what I paid for and thanks to Bowser it now runs better and looks right. I needed to get this PCC right as it is the Los Angeles line version that was the reason for the whole concept of my layout (and good memories).
I am learning about the quality of the various manufacturers, with the process of doing my layout and with the process of helping my grandson with his "N" gage layout. The Bachmann labeled trains seem to be the entry level ones whereas the Spectrum, Kato, and others are more detailed, better powered, and generally better. But the Bachmann stuff is priced lower too. There is a place for all of it.
Thank all of you that have conversed here with me. You have helped me and I appreciate it.
LDBennett
Spectrum is a Bachmann product.....
LDB-
A pancake motor is shaped somewhat like a can motor except that it is larger in diameter than it is long; conversely, a can motor is longer than it is wide. Think of can motors and pancake motors as the same thing (yes, I know they aren't the same but I'm speaking of the shapes), with a can motor looking like a can of tomato soup and a pancake motor looking like a can of tuna. Also, pancake motors are commonly mounted horizontally, that is, with their axis of rotation vertical and at a right angle to the plane of the locomotive's frame.
-- D
Yardmaster said:
Spectrum is a Bachmann product.....
Yes, I know and I reported that in my posts on this thread. Spectrum is the premium part of Bachmann. A review of the pricing will reveal that but a review of their schematics of the different models will also reveal that Spectrum is THE premium Bachmann product. The Spectrum catalog is part of the overall Bachman catalog, as well.
LDBennett
Doneldon:
OH....I understand the term "pancake motor" now. It follows the use of the term in model airplanes.
The current Bachmann PCC trolley I have uses a very small "can" motor that is about twice as long as it is in diameter. It is plugged directly into the powered truck, horizontally. This powered truck is so tall that it limits how low that Bachmann could place the body on the chassis.
The Bowser chassis for this PCC trolley uses a "can" motor (appears to be a cast case) that is longer than its diameter. It is much bigger physically than the original Bachmann motor. The Bowser motor mounts hard on to the chassis and feeds the power truck via a drive shaft with u-joints on each end. The motor is tight to the chassis and the truck is a lower profile than the Bachmann power truck, such that the body can ride lower on the new Bowser chassis. The resultant look of the chassis-to-track height seems much more correct than the Bachmann version. It also runs much smoother and slower, if desired. This was a very good modification, indeed. and considering, was not all that expensive to get a Los Angeles lines PCC.
LDBennett
i am not a fan of motors mounted on the truck. for one thing, the motor is much smaller than it would be if it were centrally located on the chassis. most likely it will be a 3 pole rahter than a 5 pole, which means it won't run as smooth. another problem is that a truck mounted motor takes up valuable space which would normally be used for reduction gears, thus it won't run as slowly as a chassis mounted motor drive will.
many of the older train set locomotives used truck mounted motors in some form. bachmann, AHM and tyco come to mind. 3 different companies, with 3 different systems using truck mounted motors. all ran like crap.
Quote from: Desertdweller on June 28, 2012, 06:08:57 PM
LD,
Does anyone know if there is actually a prototype for the Con-Cor Diesel PCC car? It sounds like it could be plausible, if rather unlikely. I cannot recall ever seeing a photo or example of one.
Les
There really is a prototype for everything, one of the Baltimore PCC cars was sold to Costa Rica and converted to a narrow gauge diesel railbus. I don't know of any standard gauge ones, but you never know.
Hamish