Looking at the Bachmann large scale locos, can anyone tell me which are American Civil War related all dates seem to be from 1876? exhibition but dont say what year they were built from. Regards. Harry
Quote from: CROMWELL on August 03, 2007, 05:22:44 PM
Looking at the Bachmann large scale locos, can anyone tell me which are American Civil War related all dates seem to be from 1876? exhibition but dont say what year they were built from. Regards. Harry
As far as I know, none are Civil War era engines. Where did you get the idea the engine might be Civil War types?
Rich
I think any of the 4-4-0s could date from the War for Southern Independence. The difference between an 1862 American Standard and an 1867 version was not that much, AFAIK.
Gene
Quote from: SteamGene on August 03, 2007, 08:51:32 PM
I think any of the 4-4-0s could date from the War for Southern Independence. The difference between an 1862 American Standard and an 1867 version was not that much, AFAIK.
Gene
except they arent 1862 or 1867..they are 1875.
the Bachmann F-scale spectrum 4-4-0 and 2-6-0 are based on mid 1870's prototypes.
although they probably wouldnt be terribly hard to back-date.
just need to go by a specific Cicil War loco, and see how well it matches..
The 4-4-0 is based on the "Eureka"..which still survives.
a 3-foot gauge Baldwin Class 8/18C built in 1875.
Im not sure of the exact prototype of the 2-6-0, but its a similar Baldwin design from the same era, just with a different wheel arrangement.
And the 2-6-0 is also referred to as the "Centennial 2-6-0"..referring to 1876.
so technically the Bachmann 4-4-0 and Spectrum 2-6-0 are 10 years beyond the civil war..which may not sound like much, but in terms of Steam Locomotive evolution, 10 years is a lot!
Scot
Well from 1860-1865...
well there was the american 4-4-0 was a basic engine and nearing the end they introduced the consolidation 2-8-0...
look those up online
and bachmann probably has them.
Scotty is right--there was a big leap in design technology after the Civil War. Take a look at pics from the Civil War and you will see that the loco designs were much closer to the 1850's than the 1870's, especially in terms of boiler designs and valve gears. Even the "General", as currently preserved, bears little resemblance to the loco as it appeared during the "Chase".
EBTNUT,
Is Correct the General and Texas as preserved looks nothing like they did in 1862 during the Great Locomotive Chase. I am reading a wonderful book that just came out called "Stealing the General." That goes into great detail about the raid the chase and the aftermath including what happened to the locomotives. I have photos somewhere I took of the General I will have to find and upload to my photos site.
the Large scale Bachmann 4-4-0s and 2-6-0s very poor choice for the War of Northern Aggression Locomotive designs.
Even the UPRRs 119 and CPRRs Jupiter were somewhat modernized compaired to the Locos used during the War.
Stephen
Shows what I don't know about steam prior to 1917! :D
Gene
Hello All,
You folks have me wondering about the civil war trains. I bought a Civil War train from Hawthorne Village which is a 2-6-0. It is suppose to be a model of the train used by General Lee. It is On30 scale and made by Bachman. I now have my doubts.
Ray
I have the same set and the loco does not go back to the war between the states.
Hi Ray: the Hawthorne Village 2-6-0 with a Confederate theme is not a Civil war era engine nor is the rolling stock. Hawthornes Ad which has been in magazines for years does not claim it is a Civil era locomotive nor does it claim Robert E. Lee used it. It is abviousely a turn of the Century Mogul with a electic head light, which by the way did not exist in 1861 to 65. The ANV battle flag on the cars is even incorrectly proportioned and is not the Confederate national flag.
David
David,
Thanks for the Information. I have been feeling all along that they sold me a pile of goods. I knew the flags were not right based on the Civil War books I have. I am also a member of the Civil War Preservation Trust and they had nothing on it that would help me.
Ray
Hi,
A very interesting thread and giving us on the eastern side of the Atlantic Ocean a good lesson in American history and the evolution of locos.
We have many preserved locos in the UK dating from the 19th. century but only one or two are in the "as built" state, most were rebuilt or had substantial additions made to them.
Also notable is the thread originators name. Oliver Cromwell was of course the main player in the English Civil War.
I note with interest the alternative names for the conflict - I have added a logo on one of my UTLX Bachmann tank cars of the Dixie Oil company. I have been informed on another American Forum that it is not politically
correct. ;)
Hi Ray: I am a Civil War reenactor with the 10th Loisianna and our group yearly makes a donation to the Civil War Preservation Trust. Just recently one of our members asked me about that the Hawthorne Village 2-6-0 and I told him what I told you. The Ad can be misleading.
David
Here is a proper (late) Civil War era loco:
(http://gold.mylargescale.com/Scottychaos/consol-500.jpg)
The Lehigh Valley Railroad's "Consolidation"
the worlds first 2-8-0 road engine.
built by Baldwin in 1865.
The loco's name "consolidation" was in honor of the consolidation of two railroads, the Lehigh & Mahoning and the Lehigh Valley. (although in reality it was not a "merger of equals"..the larger LV essentially took over the smaller L&M! ;)
Later, all 2-8-0 locomotives took the name "consolidation" after this particular loco, the first 2-8-0.
Even though this loco is from 1865, its a VERY modern loco for the civil war era..and much larger and heavier than most locos that operated during the war..so its really not a great representative loco for the war era..most locos that actually operated during the war would have been more primitive and based on technology from the 1855-1865 era...and the vast majority were 4-4-0's.
I found a few historic pictures on-line,
a famous photo of a bombed-out loco from the war:
http://www.old-picture.com/civil-war/pictures/Locomotive-Civil-War.jpg
thats 1840's technology there!
Here is a classic Civil War era 4-4-0! :)
http://www.archives.gov/research/civil-war/photos/images/civil-war-081.jpg
The "General Haupt" was built by the Mason Machine works in 1862.
Here are a few more beautiful photos:
"Depot of the U.S. Military Railroads, City Point, Va., 1864"
http://www.archives.gov/research/civil-war/photos/images/civil-war-084.jpg
"U.S. Military Railroads engine No.137, built in l864 in the yards at Chattanooga, Tenn., with troops lined up in the background."
http://www.archives.gov/research/civil-war/photos/images/civil-war-085.jpg
The engine "Firefly" on a trestle of the Orange and Alexandria Railroad.
http://www.archives.gov/research/civil-war/photos/images/civil-war-086.jpg
the last four links are all from:
http://www.archives.gov/research/civil-war/photos/
Scot
;) Scot,
Very good links to the pretty pitchures HEHEHE.
I belong to the 9th Mississippi Light Artillery my great great great Grandpa was a private in that group at Siege of Vicksburg in 1863. One reason I love big guns lol He was a brakeman before the war on the Alabama and Vicksburg Railroad that ran from the Eastern border of MS to Vicksburg, MS
Most steamers in the War only weighed between 25-60 tons had whale oil headlights and no automatic lubrication on the slide rod valve gear which they used tallow or other forms of grease. 99% of all locomotives in the South were 5 foot gauge and were wood burners with the tenders carrying 10-12 cords of wood and around 100 gallons of water. I have a vvery good book here long out of print that covers alot of Early American Railroad history operations and folklore it was published in 1940 and the Word Diesel is not mentioned once! My kind of book.
The Hawthorne village set is pure fantasy nothing like it ever degraced Southern Rails a typical Civil War train would of been of one or two 4-4-0s 0-6-0s 4-2-0 Norris even in some places 30' wood boxcars flat cars for cannon and horses even troops a water car maybe and some woreout passenger cars remember the caboose did not exsist during the Civil War it came afterwards.
(http://steve.bill--porter.com/my-models/DCP_0772.JPG)
the two trains on the top shelf are my Civil War troop trains the Battleships and 86 foot boxcars came along alot later lol.
Stephen
Hi David,
Yes you are 100% right the Ads are very misleading. So guess I will install a wall shelf above my layout, and that is where I shall park the little lady, with all my box cars, flat cars and cannons. It will at least be nice to display. I also have the Civil war structures. The Grace house, Court house and the Train station.
Ray
to Great Western: as the son of a native South Carolinian I do not understand why you should not want to use the word "Dixie." It is a generic term for the old south. whether the word is good or bad depends on context.
The L&N used the slogan "the Dixie Line"and I think maybe the NC&StL did also. There were also southern democrats in congree called Dixiecats.
If you are modelling a period prior to 1960 the word would have certainly turned up on L&N freight cars.
I was very surprised to find out that my nieces, who are now both in the University of South Carolina, had never heard the tune "Dixie."
The use of the battle flag is another issue entirely. I know that the captured Confederate battle flags that were on display in Grant's Tomb in Manhattan were removed two decades ago, ostensibly for "preservation" but in fact due to complaints of locals who felt that the Confederate flags were degrading. Some of them only recently reappeared on display. I haven't visited since they did a restoration on the tomb but I bet there are no confederate national flags - just regimental flags.
Hi Woody,
Having problems with this site here, This is the third attempt at a reply.
I didn't say I wouldn't use the word "Dixie", after all I mentioned that I have a Dixie logo on one of my Big Hauler tank cars. The comment was made that in certain quarters the word could cause me problems. However, I feel safe enough at this distance away :D
THB Dave,
I've seen the ad, and I agree, their ads can be very deceptive. The flag they show in the ads is, IIRC, a representation of the Confederate naval jack, which was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia turned into a rectangle. The battle flag carried by soldiers was a square, the size varying among infantry, cavalry, and artillery units with infantry carrying the largest and the cavalry the smallest.
As to the name, I've always maintained that "American Civil War" is a misnomer as every other civil war I know of - like the English Civil War of Oliver Cromwell fame - was a war to determine who governed the country and with what kind of government. Correct names for the Late Unpleasantness could be:
The War of the Rebellion (used by the Union during the war)
The War for Southern Independence
The War Between the States
All of the above are accurate and neutral.
Then we get
The War of the Yankee Invasion and others like it which show a definite bias. :D
I think the first Consolidaiton, whether built in 1865 or 1866, came after April, 1865 and most folks consider the end of the war occured when Lee surrendered, even if the Army of the Tennessee, which was now in North Carolina, didn't surrender until a few weeks later and some Texans held out even longer.