Bachmann Online Forum

Discussion Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: Big Sol on August 07, 2007, 05:36:20 AM

Title: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Big Sol on August 07, 2007, 05:36:20 AM
  Okay, I've only been on this site for a few hours, I haven't really gotten into the hobby yet (I'm a newbie, really, with only a hint of past experience with model railroading) and I've been looking at DCC for the future. The simplicity of DC has always sort of irked me, and the idea of being able to control different engines at different times while all on the same track is much more appealing than having to either have them all go or all stop at once.

However, I've read that DCC is unreliable and, apparently, it 'burns out' fairly quickly and can be costly to maintain and repair.

Is this true? If so, perhaps I need to wait until the technology is a bit more stable before I go out and spend money on some of these locomotives and other kits.

BTW, I work as a network designer and I support computer networking equipment for a living, so I understand the whole 'network/train address' and how commands are sent over DCC. It sounds extremely versatile and like it'd be great to use if the rumors of reliability are overstated.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: David(UK) on August 07, 2007, 05:39:50 AM
In answer to your question, the rumors of reliability are overstated! :D
Unless of course you're buying Hornby DCC equipment where the rumors of reliability are understated ???
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Big Sol on August 07, 2007, 05:41:36 AM
My local shop has a ton of Bachmann stuff, and all of Bachmann's stuff seems fairly priced and plentiful, so I'll probably go with that.

I'm now regretting not having paid $5 for the Bachmann 2007 catalog they had there...I'll have to remember to pick that up once I get off work (Graveyard shift...what fun!)
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: ebtbob on August 07, 2007, 06:31:33 AM
Good Morning All,

        I have been in this hobby since the mid 1950s.   The best thing I did in the past five years or so is go to DCC.   It has made the hobby soooooo much more fun for me and my son.   The ability to run trains without having to remember which toggle switch to throw,  etc is hugh plus.   The ability to have sound is also a plus for us.
        I guess the question of reliability would be a hard one to answer save to say,  I have had no particular catastrophic problems with my Digitrax system.   The same brand is used at my club and considering the amount of trains run,  we have had basiscally no problems in 10 years.   Will a booster or command station go bad.....sure,  but it is not an arm and a leg to get replaced.   It all depends on the manufacturer and store where you buy your equipment.
       My mentioning of Digitrax is not a suggestion to buy that brand.   There are a number of brands that are worth considering.   The best thing to do is try to get to someone's railroad with DCC and play with it.  Then try to hook up with another system  and so on until you find one that fits your wallet and you feel comfortable with.
       If you want questions answered about Digitrax,  go to www.gatsme.org,  my local club's site and contact the the site manager,  Val Pistilli.   He is very well versed in Digitrax and can answer all you questions.

Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: SteamGene on August 07, 2007, 07:46:30 AM
Big Sol,
I wondered about DCC when I first heard about it.  I'm sold on it now. 
Let me address one comment you made - that of having all locomotives running at once or all stopped.  In DC, that problem is solved by dividing your layout into blocks and individually powering every siding or yard track that you have.  This takes a lot of wire and a lot of switches.   None of that is needed for DCC. 
The layout I'm building right now, which is 26x17 with two penninsulas, has a total of five power districts, including the reverse loop, but excluding the turntable.   There will also be a test track and one short piece of DC track for initial testing of a locomotive.  This is compared to individual wiring for the staging yard tracks, the yard tracks, two passing sidings, an interchange track, three industrial sidings, and either two or three coal tipples, and a turntable. The price of DCC, like the price of computers, is coming down.  Start small. 
Gene   
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: conradin on August 07, 2007, 08:08:05 AM
Quote from: Big Sol on August 07, 2007, 05:41:36 AM
My local shop has a ton of Bachmann stuff, and all of Bachmann's stuff seems fairly priced and plentiful, so I'll probably go with that.

I'm now regretting not having paid $5 for the Bachmann 2007 catalog they had there...I'll have to remember to pick that up once I get off work (Graveyard shift...what fun!)
The catalog is on the website.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Big Sol on August 07, 2007, 08:08:25 AM
Well, as I mentioned in another post, I plan to start off pretty small by using a 10x10 self-built table, though I may actually make it an L-shaped corner table to make access easier. Most likely, it will be a simple plywood surface, upon which I'll place corkboard to lay my track on. I suspect my first layout will most likely begin with a single, unbroken L-shaped oval, which I'll add switches and secondary routes to once my finances will permit it.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: SteamGene on August 07, 2007, 09:07:14 AM
Good rule of thumb.  No track should be more than three feet away from the edge of the benchwork, and two feet is better.   So go with the L shape unless you are building a 10x10 in a gym. 
Gene
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Jim Banner on August 07, 2007, 09:22:11 AM
Is DCC worth the price/time?

ABSOLUTELY!
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Big Sol on August 07, 2007, 10:32:03 AM
Here's a diagram of my currently planned layout. Please excuse the crudeness of the drawing since I did it in MS Paint on my break at work.

(http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k193/bigsol81/TrainTableLayout.jpg)

The image doesn't look quite right when compressed in the forum, so if you can't read it, here's a direct link:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k193/bigsol81/TrainTableLayout.jpg (http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k193/bigsol81/TrainTableLayout.jpg)
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Jake on August 07, 2007, 11:49:00 AM
Replying to your questions...

1. Trackage curves. From what you have shown in the picture, you have room for about 15" radius, which, unless you are in the range of N-scale or under isnt much, but is fine for a beginner layout like yours.

2. If you have the right type of support for bench/framework. No.


3.Considering you are 6ft tall, it will probably pose some problem. You may want to consider an access portal. (A removable rectangle or triangle of benchwork where you can crawl under, pop it up and get to a stuck train or something.)

4. Well as you described in the question, laying tie-by-tie, rail-by-rail which is handlaying track, No you don't have to do it. As I have said before you can use rigid sectional track, or flextrack. Which all you have to do is nail it down to the cork, and add balast (or if you don't want to do that there is sectional track that comes with roadbed attached, like Bachmann E-Z Track.)


5. Switching yards/terminals. I posted a link to a book called "Track Planning for Realistic Operation" in your "New to the Hobby - Questions" thread, that book should help. And as I have said before, I suggest you put some money into some books to get you going with all of the technology, & other things.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Big Sol on August 07, 2007, 01:35:26 PM
Laying ballast...

Now...just so I'm clear, that's the model equivalent of gravel, right?

That being said, is ballast necessary on a model railroad or is it merely for aesthetic value? Either way, I'll most likely add it anyway. I know I never saw it used on my great grandfather's set, and I never saw any problems occur, but then he never did anything exactly 'by-the-book'. My grandfather had ballast, but then he was going for a very aesthetically pleasing look too, so it's a toss up.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: r.cprmier on August 07, 2007, 02:53:01 PM
On ballast:

Jake; Trackwork-and this will be "hear here'd" by most,if not all, here-is paramount, and if it is at all sloppy, it will eventually show up on your doorstep-in the form of an albatross. Or a big millstone.  Take your pick!

Your best bet; do your DD, get the best track you can find per your piggybankEAD and absorb as much about this art as you can; then PLAN a layout that you will consider satisfactory per your desires.  Do not compromise on trackwork; if you have any doubts about how something came out, revist it, and if need be, re-do it.  As Howard Zane once said: "The second worst sound in the world is a brass locomotive hitting the floor!".  I say that there is nothing more aggravating than trying to fish a stalled train out of a long tunnel, or a bridge-of which I have several-because of garbagy trackwork-of which I speak from experience!!
We had an expression in the Air Force:  "Zero Defects-Do it right  the firsttime!".  I have learned-by the scars of experience-to carry that into every aspect of life I can-especially this aspect!

Ballast:  Nothing will top off the look of trackwork better than a nice top-notch ballast job-nor detract from same and cause untold grief better than a slpooy second-rate one.  get good quality ballast; many manufacturers here-Woodland Scenics, John's,High Ball, etc; all found in Walthers catalogue-or on line.  Follow the manufucturer's recommendations-to the letter-and you will be satisfied to the nines-big smiles, etc.

OK:  enough of me.  If you need help, have questions, get on line, either with us or any other like forum, and you will probably come away fulfilled.
Good Luck, and now, go slay yon dragon!

Rich
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Jim Banner on August 07, 2007, 04:53:50 PM
Fifteen inch radius curves will limit you to N-scale or industrial H0-scale or possibly 0-27 in 0-scale.

Unless your knuckles drag on the ground when you walk, you will probably need an access hole near corner 3.  The reach to this corner is about 4-1/2 feet, assuming you can get your body into the square corner near 5.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Hunt on August 07, 2007, 09:56:38 PM
THEN DCC IS NOT FOR YOU

If you are the type of person who only reads the instruction manual after you have tried everything else you can think of ----- then DCC is not for you.

If you are the type of person who has difficulty understanding what you read ----- then DCC is not for you.

If you are the type of person who reads into instructions what you think they are going to say instead of what is actually written --- then DCC is not for you.

If you tell yourself and everyone else you understand DCC but you actually do not --- then DCC is not for you

If you are the type of person who can not program a VCR/DVD or set the clock on it --- then DCC is not for you.

If you are the type of person who talks when you should be listening --- then DCC is not for you.

If you are the type of person who can not reassemble what you have disassembled --- then DCC is not for you.

If none of your locomotives have an electrical motor --- then DCC is not for you.

If you are enrolled in anger management class --- then DCC is not for you.

If you do not know the difference between a plug and a socket --- then DCC is not for you.

If you only have a $100 or less to spend --- then DCC is not for you.

Some people live and learn --- if you are the type of person who just lives ----- then DCC is not for you.

If you are the type of person who has looked at one DCC system and thinks all others are the same --- then you are mistaken!

Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Big Sol on August 08, 2007, 03:08:48 AM
Well, a design change has been implemented due to a lack of space, so it will now be a single 3'x8' table that I will add an additional 2' to at a later date. I already have the lumber.

Now, my initial table design is very simplistic. I intend to simply nail the plywood directly to three 4x4 'legs' that will support it. I'm using three for additional support, one at each of the outer corners, and a third in the center. The other side of the table will be against a wall, so rather than using 'legs', I intend to anchor the other side of the table directly to the wall it's up against. The wall in question has a protrusion near the floor made of concrete (this is in a garage), so legs would actually force the table to sit about 8 inches away from the wall, wasting what little space I have available to me.

I considered placing a 2x4 'frame' around the underside of the table, but in all honesty, I don't think the extra support is necessary, and since the table will only be four feet off the ground, I want to make sure there's ample room underneath it so I have room to work when drilling holes and running wires for the switches, lights, and other things I eventually intend to incorporate. I may have to, though, because the plywood I got is slightly warped, and I may need a frame just to 'flatten' it out a bit.

Honestly, the idea of incorporating separate sections of current with switches and whatnot is somewhat intimidating. I'm neither a handyman nor an electrician (I'm a computer geek by trade, so building things with my hands, repairing cars, and other sorts of 'handyman' tasks are foreign to me), so the idea of constructing things of that scale are a bit overwhelming at times. However, I like meticulous detail, so building the various scenery and electrical parts should appeal to me quite a bit.

Anyway...just more input on my upcomming project.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Big Sol on August 08, 2007, 06:07:03 AM
I'm a bit confused now.

I went to my local hobby shop today to pick up a few more things for my project, and while there the guy working there told me I can expect to fork out over $1,000 to start a DCC setup.

Now, he's been doing it for a while, sure, but that sounds outrageous to me. Can anyone give me an accurate (approximate) price for one DCC locomotive and the bare essentials needed to make it go? Just for starters...
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: ebtbob on August 08, 2007, 06:31:51 AM
Sol,

       I would love to climb inside that guy's head and see where he came up with a figure of $1000 to get started in DCC.   If you chose to go with the Bachmann EZ system,  you initial cost should be under $150.   If you choose Digitrax,  then the Zepher system will be under $200.  NCE also has an entry system for under $200.
       Can you end up spending over $1000 on DCC?  You bet,  but the person who inccurs that type of cost does it over an extended period of time and the costs include more than the system itself.   Throttles,  boosters,  and decoders are figured in to the cost over time,  not to mention dcc equipped,  or dcc with sound equipped engines,  but over $1000 to start.......not for the extreme majority of us who have taken the DCC plunge.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: SteamGene on August 08, 2007, 07:37:19 AM
You are working with HO, ricght?  If so, 3x8 is really pushing the lower limit!  With 4x8 you can actually get a 22" radius curve, which is much, much better than 15" which will limit your  choice of cars and locomotives.
Gene
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Big Sol on August 08, 2007, 10:20:50 AM
Hold on, let me make sure I understand how this works...

A 3' wide board is 36" wide. A 22" radius curve is, unless I'm mistaken, only 22" around...so shouldn't an oval with 22" curves fit onto a 3' wide board? In fact, shouldn't I technically be able to go all the way up to a 26" curve or theoretically higher?
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: SteamGene on August 08, 2007, 10:33:37 AM
D=2r.  The radius is 22" so multiplied by 2 you get 44", which is 4" shy of 48" or 4 feet.  A three foot board = 36" so 18x2 = 36" so the track is right on the very edge of the board, making the only curve you can really use 15".  I don't know about anybody else, but I've found flex track really hard to work with tight radii. 
Gene
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: r.cprmier on August 08, 2007, 11:33:17 AM
Hunt;
That is TERRIBLE!!  How can you be that far "to the blank statement right"?  There has to be a goodly amount of variance to what you say, and I do hope a lot of it was said tongue in cheek; otherwise, you are perhaps condemning a lot of otherwise smart people.  I can understand about not reading instructions-one HAS to have a good understanding about DCC; but the VCR/DVD thing-I HATE messing around with that stuff, so I call in mine son, the genius...  I can also understand not taking a cavalier attitude toward the whole spectrum of DCC, lest disaster prevails.
 
I for one, have never been the quickest guy to glean info from any writ; be it a manual, or a total book.  It takes me some degree of hands on to understand fully the machinations of something-and I don't think I am a dunce; it is just one of my (many) not so good points.
I believe that people have to be a bit more diversified than that.  I know you are very knowledgeable about this hobby and a great many other things, and have a great deal of respect for what you  have to say; so I am a bit surprised to see that sort of edict from you.  I hope you understand that this is not a jibe or some snide comeback; but instead my reaction to what you said here.

Rich
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Big Sol on August 08, 2007, 02:05:20 PM
Hopefully, nobody takes this the wrong way.

I know there are a lot of  'old-timers' on this board...as in, those who are significantly older than myself that have been doing this for a long time. I have the advantage of having grown up around electronics and computers, whereas many of the older men grew up tinkering with cars or building things out of wood. As a result, they're a lot better with carpentry and mechanics than I am, and I'm better with electronics and computers.

Now, I don't claim that this makes me an 'expert' on DCC. It does, however, based on what I've read so far on DCC, give me an edge on learning it, as the technology used to communicate with engines over DCC is very similar to that used in Powerline adapters, such as the HDX102 and XE104, which are devices that allow computer networks to communicate through the electrical wiring in a house. I understand networking, I understand digital device communication, so grasping the concept behind DCC isn't that much for me. That being said, I have to say that a lot of Hunt's statements could be said about virtually ANY hobby, but they won't necessarily apply to anyone.

On another note, I'm going to start a separate thread to document the progress of my first REAL model railroad project, complete with pictures...all coming soon.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: amdaylight on August 08, 2007, 02:08:48 PM
Big Sol

Let me throw my two cents in this discussion. As to the matter of DCC, starting with a Bachmann or a MRC system is the way to go, would I recommend a DCC system to start with, a resounding and loud YES. If I was making a recommendation and I guess I am so here it goes and if you are interested in HO, I would recommend that you get one of the Bachmann sets with a DCC equipped locomotive. These sets have a standard power pack but the locomotive has the decoder already installed in it. It comes with a sectional track system that is great for getting started with but is more expensive and less flexible in what configuration you want than regular snap track or flex track. I use the sectional track system under the Christmas tree. I would recommend that you get a hold of one or two of the Kalmbach starter books to help you through the mine field that can be your first layout. I would also recommend that you do not ballast the first layout as it will probably not last that long. The reason I say this is that as you expectations and knowledge grows and this happens real fast at first you will out grow the first layout fast and you will want to change and modify it and if the track is not ballasted then it will be easier to pick up and move. Ballast in model railroading is really an aesthetic item and not a necessary item. As to the method of supporting your base board I would use 2x4 legs with a 1x4 frame work under the base board, if the base is not stable YOU WILL HAVE NOTHING BUT PROBLEMS and will loose interest in the hobby if nothing stays on the track or runs the way it should. Again my first recommendation would be to get one or two of the beginners books from Kalmbach (Model Railroader) these will help you understand what you want to do and how to get there.

Best wishes,
Andre  :) ;D
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Hunt on August 08, 2007, 03:07:41 PM
Quote from: r.cprmier on August 08, 2007, 11:33:17 AM
Hunt;
That is TERRIBLE!!  How can you be that far "to the blank statement right"?  There has to be a goodly amount of variance to what you say,  ...
Rich
Rich,
I have been helping folks learn to use DCC for more than just a few years. What I wrote has assisted people to distinguish the reasons they were having difficulty and creating frustrations as they began the learning curve about what they needed to know about DCC.

I remember you were very adamant about you would never use DCC because you worked with electrical stuff all day and you would not come home and have to work with it as part of a hobby. Now you are using DCC. Do you recall what I wrote you about the attitude you were flaunting about not using DCC?

I notice you acknowledge you recognize the points I make are applicable. And they remain applicable for the folks that have one or more of them unless something is done to overcome or compensate for them.  Just as you compensate for the VCR/DVD clock setting.  ;)

Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Hunt on August 08, 2007, 03:16:49 PM
Quote from: SteamGene on August 08, 2007, 10:33:37 AM
D=2r.  The radius is 22" so multiplied by 2 you get 44", which is 4" shy of 48" or 4 feet.  A three foot board = 36" so 18x2 = 36" so the track is right on the very edge of the board, making the only curve you can really use 15".  I don't know about anybody else, but I've found flex track really hard to work with tight radii. 
Gene
Be aware the radius of curved track is measured to the centerline of the track. An 18" radius curve will not fit on a 36" base; The track will overhang.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: r.cprmier on August 08, 2007, 03:39:26 PM
Do you recall what I wrote you about the attitude you were flaunting about not using DCC?

Hunt;
I realize that your intent was  not a bad one.  What bothered me was not as much what you were saying, but how you said it, and it is just my opinion, and feelings about that.  Certainly, no offense was intended.
I understand where you are at, because I see that kind of stuff on a daily basis in my  work as a troubleshooter.  As I said, what bothered me was just the "cut-and-dried-ness" of how it came across to me.
Rich   

Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: SteamGene on August 08, 2007, 04:15:37 PM
Rich,
I agree with you.  I think I made it perfectly clear that you can't fit 18" radius curves on a 3' sheet. 
Gene
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Hunt on August 08, 2007, 07:49:45 PM
Quote from: SteamGene on August 08, 2007, 04:15:37 PM
Rich,
I agree with you.  I think I made it perfectly clear that you can't fit 18" radius curves on a 3' sheet. 
Gene
Gene,
You wrote
QuoteA three foot board = 36" so 18x2 = 36" so the track is right on the very edge of the board, making the only curve you can really use 15".

Few folks new to model railroading realize curve track radius is measured to the centerline of the track. Thus I clarified the part, "so the track is right on the very edge of the board." With 18" radius, the track will overhang the edge of the 3’ board.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: SteamGene on August 08, 2007, 08:43:18 PM
making the only curve you can really use 15"

And would you care to explain why you ignored this?  It seems to me that this is very specific. There seemed to be a lack of understanding of radius and diameter.  I didn't think that trying to explain that 18" dealt with the center line vs the inside track or the outside track would be very helpful.  After all, what is the difference between the center line and the outside track?  Not much.
Gene
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Hunt on August 08, 2007, 10:42:21 PM
Quote from: SteamGene on August 08, 2007, 08:43:18 PM
making the only curve you can really use 15"

And would you care to explain why you ignored this?  It seems to me that this is very specific. There seemed to be a lack of understanding of radius and diameter.  I didn't think that trying to explain that 18" dealt with the center line vs the inside track or the outside track would be very helpful.  After all, what is the difference between the center line and the outside track?  Not much.
Gene


Sheesh Gene,
Quote… making the only curve you can really use 15"

Has nothing to do with how someone is to understand a curve track radius measurement.

I am starting to see why you say the folks at your model railroad club will only let you turn the building’s lights off.  ;D
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Big Sol on August 09, 2007, 12:41:20 AM
Easy, guys. Yeah, I had the terms 'radius' and 'diameter' mixed up. 15" radius = 30" diameter, and I've got a 36" wide board, so yeah, I'm stuck with 15" turns for now. Probably for a great while. I wanted to go with a 10x4 table, but A) I don't have the space, and B) It's against a wall, which would make reaching the far end of the table very difficult if it were 4' wide.

I'll compromise for the time being and stick with shorter engines and cars. Also, I'm only going to be running one engine, a standard DC engine, until I can afford DCC. It definately sounds like the way to go, and I'd probably be far more interested in that than standard DC. On a side note....I think I didn't buy enough straight track segments, now that I look at my almost completed table.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Big Sol on August 09, 2007, 06:14:55 AM
Again, I honestly wish I could go with something wider than 3 feet, but this is an absolute firm restriction at this time that can in no way be modified. While there is 'physical' room for the table to be that wide, it is required to be against a wall, and I can't reach across more than 3 feet of table without leaning on it heavily or lowering it, and since I just spent almost two days and a fair amount of money building a train table, it's going to stay where it's at for now.

I understand the loss, and one day I'll expand my table and have room for larger curves, but for now, this is where it is.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Jay on August 10, 2007, 02:24:31 PM
The only reason I can really see for one not to go to DCC is if you have an established DC layout where the cost for conversion would be a factor.  When just beginning I would highly recommend going DCC because I think if you dont now you will want to later.  That is what we had found out quickly and am very happy for the decision.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: r.cprmier on August 10, 2007, 04:10:59 PM
Other than the cost of the DCC equipment and decoders, what cost would be entailed?  If you have a dependable wiring system, it can, most likely be converted over to DCC without any hassle to speak of, let alone cost.  Most layouts of any size would have some means of controling for multi-train ops, such as a block system.  This can be easily adapted into DCC by virtue of using the circuit breakers for blocks.  There are some common-sense considerations, like passing sidings, etc, that will remain wired as is.

RIch 
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Jim Banner on August 10, 2007, 05:45:49 PM
Rich, block wiring, even for only two operators, can get pretty pricey.  There is the cost of toggle or rotary switches, panels to mount them on, extra wiring for each block, and of course, two power packs.  None of these is required with DCC.  By going directly to DCC, you save the cost of these extras.

When converting to DCC, one DCC circuit breaker per dc block would be very extravagant.  A medium sized layout with a couple of dozen blocks my well be rewired to 4 or so power districts, served by only 4 circuit breakers.  This usually entails running power buses for each district and chopping off the block wiring so that only short power drops remain.  The old block wiring from a central control panel can replace buses on a small layout but as the layout becomes larger, the possibility of trouble with this type of wiring increase considerably.  Strange decoder reactions, or even decoder damage can be caused by large birds nests of wiring "ringing" with the high frequencies DCC applies to it.

With small layouts, by all means start off with dc, particularly if you start with a train set that includes a power pack.  But the minute you want to run two or more trains at the same time on the same trackage, it is time to start thinking about DCC before investing in dc multi-train operation. 
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Jay on August 10, 2007, 07:08:55 PM
I agree with JIm.  The cost is two fold.  One is investing in one system then scrapping that to move to another.  The other is time ... the amount of time wrapped into building the DC system only to be switched around at a latter time. 
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: r.cprmier on August 12, 2007, 03:26:38 PM
Jim; that might be a lopsided statement.  The context  I was writing in was that of an existing layout; the wiring is already there; and with some alterations, DCC is a very viable option. 

To compare DCC to earlier cab control would be pointless. Both have an initial outlay.  Now, to do this right, you would still need a panelboard that at least gives you a lighted location and status of turnouts and blocks-especially those out of sight!  You still also need some toggle switches-there is no way  I am going to totally rely on high-speed circuit breakers to ensure the block is dead.

On scrapping a system:
No one is mandating you use one system or another-that is your choice.  If you feel it to be cost prohibitive, then you should stay status quo.

Rich
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: renniks on August 12, 2007, 04:27:55 PM
  Now, to do this right, you would still need a panelboard that at least gives you a lighted location and status of turnouts and blocks-especially those out of sight!  You still also need some toggle switches-there is no way  I am going to totally rely on high-speed circuit breakers to ensure the block is dead.


      Why all these complications? If you read previous posts you will see that this is a 'starter' who has so far just built a 3x8 table.
      All he will need for some tims is a Bach EZ-Command set.
      By the way, he hasn't said what scale he is going to use. The smaller On30 stosk will fit just as well as HO. I have a portable layout which uses Peco Setrack turouts and Radius 1 curves and can run the Bach On30 Mogul and the BLI C-16.

       Eric UK

Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Atlantic Central on August 12, 2007, 06:30:21 PM
Is DCC worth the price/time?

Well, this answer will suprise some on here who know me, but my short answer is YES, if it meets your operational goals.

What many fail to realize with DC or DCC is that as layout size and complexity increase, so does the needed wiring infrastructure, and it makes no difference if it is DC or DCC. The only difference is HOW the wiring infrastructure becomes more complex.

This is the "myth" that was propagated in the early days of DCC. "no more complicated wiring, just hook two wires to the whole layout". Boy, that didn't last long. Nex thing you knew they where talking about power districts, circuit breakers, reverse units, etc, etc.

Again I will remind all that the "best" control system for any model railroad is the one that meets the owners operational goals. If you almost always want to be the "engineer" on an intimate level, than DCC is probably the best choice.

But there are other choices and there are numerious ways to wire DC layouts for multi train operation without "block toggles".

Cost, well DCC is expensive, and, I would argue it is more expensive than most DC choices for most medium to large layouts. Maybe not a lot more expensive, but more expensive none the less, especially factoring in the cost of decoders for a moderate fleet of locos.

I have 150+ locos, at $20 a pop for a simple non sound decoder, that is $3000.00. I can buy a lot of power packs, relays, computer interface boards, wire and toggle switches for $3,000.00

But again, ANY medium to large layout is going to require an expensive and complex electrical infrastructure to operate multiple trains.

Sheldon
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: r.cprmier on August 12, 2007, 08:03:41 PM
By George, you're right, Renniks!

You can surely run a layout without a panelboard, blocks, etc etc etc. 
NOW, you build a layout of any appreciable size and tell me that.  You can put a circle on a piece of plywood and call it a layout-the same way that Someone might call Hall and Oates a Jazz group...

Rich
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Jim Banner on August 12, 2007, 11:22:21 PM
Quote from: r.cprmier on August 12, 2007, 03:26:38 PM
Jim; that might be a lopsided statement.  The context  I was writing in was that of an existing layout; the wiring is already there; and with some alterations, DCC is a very viable option.

Rich.  In that context, I agree with you.

I was taking it in the context of the original question where the originator of this thread was contemplating a new layout.  In that context, I believe he should go to DCC early, before he spends a lot of money on dc blocking.  In fact, I believe in going to DCC just as soon as you want to run more than one train at a time on your tracks. 
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Jim Banner on August 13, 2007, 12:49:16 AM
Quote from: Atlantic Central on August 12, 2007, 06:30:21 PM
I have 150+ locos, at $20 a pop for a simple non sound decoder, that is $3000.00. I can buy a lot of power packs, relays, computer interface boards, wire and toggle switches for $3,000.00

Sheldon, $3000 does indeed buy at lot of components.  Please do not let me discourage you by saying that converting even a medium sized layout to computer assisted automatic block control will quickly eat that up and a bunch more besides.  Lets take an example.  A medium sized layout with 25 blocks and designed to run 8 trains at a time will require 25 x 8 = 200 relays, using Bruces Chubb's approach.  If you manage to find DPDT relays for only $10 each, that is already $2000 spent.  Custom printed circuit boards to hold these relays plus their drivers could easily run $50 each or you could set up the required equipment and make them yourself for about the same price.  These 25 boards would add another $1250 to just the relays sections of your dc system.

I assume you would buy computer output cards that would plug into your computer.  Three cards, each with eight 1-of-8 outputs, would just about do it.  As an industrial item, I think these sell for about $100 each.  Along with these, you would also require a couple of cards with sixteen single inputs each for another couple of hundred dollars.  I assume you would build your own block occupancy detectors, something along the line of a Chubb optimized detector modified for DCC.  That would be another 25 printed circuit boards plus components, say $500 for the lot.  That would just about do it for the custom stuff except for the wire, a whole lot of wire.    But we can assume you can scrounge a mile or two of small wire for free.

Lastly there are the power packs and the computer.  Let us assume you already have the computer to dedicate to this project or can get one free.  The power packs with pulse power and momentum might be as cheap as $50 each off eBay or up to double that new.  And you will need eight of them.

You can add it all up, adjusting the prices up or down depending on your preferred suppliers and local conditions.  I came out with about $4650.

Lets compare converting the same layout to DCC.  Let us use an 8 amp command station/booster, 8 throttles, and divide the whole thing up into 8 power sub-districts.  This will let you run 8 double headed trains with you and seven friends each controlling your own train, just like you could with the computer assisted automatic block control example above.  Using Digitrax equipment, which I am most familiar with, you would pay

8 Amp Super Chief set              $470
7 UT-4 throttles                      $560
2 PM42 power managers           $160
1 18 volt, 10 amp transformer   $100 (est.)
250 ft. of 14-2 bus wire           $100 (est.)
TOTAL                                  $1390 (est.)

Taking the DCC total off the automated block system estimate would still leave you over $3000 for installing those decoders.  In fact, you could probably install decoders in over 200 locomotives and still break even.

I don't mean to scare anyone with these prices.  But having built a computer assisted automatic block system and painfully programmed it in machine language, then scrapped it all in favour of DCC, I am all too aware of the costs involved.  My present DCC system cost less than shown above but will easily support 16 or more locomotives running at once.  I own only 4 throttles - when we need more, my model railroading buddies have to bring their own.  And the transformer and wiring I used were all no-cost salvage.  Lastly, I do not own anywhere near 150 locomotives that are worth converting to DCC and suspect that is true of many of us.  But if I did, then even simple, low cost decoders would allow me control way beyond the capabilities of any dc block system.


Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Hunt on August 13, 2007, 01:14:25 AM
Quote from: Atlantic Central on August 12, 2007, 06:30:21 PM
...
Again I will remind all that the "best" control system for any model railroad is the one that meets the owners operational goals. If you almost always want to be the "engineer" on an intimate level, than DCC is probably the best choice.
...

Sheldon
Jim,
If I correctly recall Sheldon's operational goals for his layout, then cost and proprietary control system notwithstanding, a computerized control system such as Oak Tree Systems (http://www.oaktreesystems.com) to me is a better choice for him than a DCC system.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Jim Banner on August 13, 2007, 01:52:15 AM
Quote from: Hunt on August 13, 2007, 01:14:25 AM
If I correctly recall Sheldon's operational goals for his layout, then cost and proprietary control system notwithstanding, a computerized control system such as Oak Tree Systems (http://www.oaktreesystems.com) to me is a better choice for him than a DCC system.

Hunt, it seems to me that on his own layout, Sheldon was working toward totally automatic control, but I may be mistaken.  But in the present thread, I believe he was talking in general about DCC vs dc in medium to large layouts.  I hope he will clear up these points. 

There are a great many points where I do agree with Sheldon, in particular his statement
QuoteBut again, ANY medium to large layout is going to require an expensive and complex electrical infrastructure to operate multiple trains.

Like most things in life, the more you want to do, the more it's going to cost.

Incidentally, even though I did not mention it, the infrastructure for computer assisted automatic block control works for both operator-oriented operation and fully automatic operation.  The only difference is in the programming.  Back in my dc days, one of the programs I had for my home layout was written for train shows.  This program  would automatically run five trains and keep them from colliding.  When it comes to shows, I wish I still had that same capability with DCC, but I am unwilling to make the rather large investment just for shows when this is not the primary use of my layout.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Atlantic Central on August 13, 2007, 09:14:42 AM
Jim,

My operational goals are:

to be able to "operate" each train, up to 8-10 operators,

or,

Have 4-6 trains on the double track mianline under automatic or semi automatic operation while 1-4 yard/industrial trains are run by operators,

and to have full signaling and block detection for dispatching and train storage in stagging yards. Total number of trains stored - 30-35.

Not to offend, and he did great pioneer work, but Bruce Chubb's approach is obsolete.

Oak Tree Systems and Signal Reasearch use a better approach. Each block has a throttle with detection built right onto a card that interfaces directly with the computer. No power packs, no Relays, No power wiring matrix.

Cost of Oak Tree System layout with 40 blocks, 100 turnouts w/signals and 7 throttles:

CBC8-8 block throttle card x 5 = $200 x 5 = $1000
power supplies (one per card) x 5 = $20 x 5 = $100
IO48 in/out info card (signals/turnouts) x 5 = $130 x 5 = $650.00
computer interface    $60
Hand held controllers x 7 = $200 x 7 = $1400

Using your assumption of a free computer = system cost $3210

So the system is $1300 less then DCC and I get signaling and detection free. Your pricing does not even begin to address that.

Forgeting about automation or collision control which is in the software, adding signalling and detection to DCC is like starting over on another whole seperate infrastructure. More wire, more devices, etc.

Not to mention those decoders, which I will not have to install. AND, this type of computerized block control holds the future of layout based sound with better sound fidelity from larger speakers. (If I ever take any real interest in sound)

Sheldon
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Atlantic Central on August 13, 2007, 10:46:46 AM
Jim,

A few more thoughts, when I mentioned relays in my orginal post, I was not refering to using them for detection or computerized block control.

I use a few relays for special "sub block" circuits in yards and at large juctions. Just need a few for special situations.

Please understand, I understand DCC completely, I looked very deep into it and keep up with it since many I model with use it. But it is not well suited to MY goals. If I was building a different type of layout, it might be perfect.

My operating goals in more detail:

Walk around control of mainline trains is boring to me. I would rather be a railfan at that point.

I want to be able to run my "whole" railroad by myself, or with my friends.

For switching, a well wired DC "zone" control approach works just as well since you can only "run" one loco at a time. I have never seen the prototype switch the same area, at the same time, by two locos. In fact my Son is an Engineer on the Canton Railroad. Safety rules limit how and when two locos operate that close to each other.

I like the "on stage/off stage" mainline operation concept. Trains come out of stagging, run through the "mainline" part of the layout, then return to stagging. Some of those trains enter/leave the only "yard" on the scenic portion of the layout.

Local trains are made up in that yard, leave for industrial areas, do their work and return. Just like every big city I have watched trains in or looked at railroad maps of.

In my view, having only 2 or 3 or even eight miles of mainline, with industries scatered along it, and working a local the whole length of the same run your mainline trains run, is not prototypical or realistic.

The large Class I type systems I model did not/do not have many industries directly off the main line. I realize many modelers these days do just the industrial area or just the main line. I want a fair amount of both.

Look, everything we do is a compromise, everyone has different goals and is willing to compromise different things.

Here are a few things about DCC I have no interest in or things I dislike:

Most of the handhelds have TOO many buttons and use worthless (in my opinion) computer type icon pictures to identify them.

I have no interest in turning headlights on and off, making coupler noises, etc.

I would have some interest in bells, whistles and horns, but much of that I can do with automatic features at crossings etc.

I have no use for helpers or consisting as I have found many of todays "different" locos run fine together for double heading and the period I model was one of "matched" multiple uniting for the most part.



Obviously, DCC will be a major player in the future of the hobby, but there is strong evidence that it will by no means be universal any time soon. Many times when operating friends DCC layouts, things go wrong, different things than with DC, but they still go wrong. Decoders don't respond, wireless handhelds loose communication, derailed trains shut down large sections of the layout, etc. Not better than DC, not worse, just different. Better is some ways, worse in others in my opinion.

Again, DCC assumes everyone wants the "popular", "walk around", "indvidual" control of being the "engineer". The model press has done a good job at "selling" this idea, but not everone is buying. The stalled growth of DCC is the proof. If DCC was taking over so fully, than BLI/PCM would not be offering the BlueLine and Bachmann, Athearn, Atlas, Intermountain, and a long list of others would only be offering DCC locos.

But they are not.

Sheldon
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: renniks on August 13, 2007, 07:06:15 PM

   Jim,Rich and Sheldon,

    Would you take your discussion elsewhere and let us get back to answering  Big Sol's question --- is it worthwhile for HIM to use DCC to run trains on his 3x8 table (whether it is a "Layout" or no).Don't think that he will have room for 150 locos and 8-10 operators.

    Eric UK
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Atlantic Central on August 13, 2007, 07:18:23 PM
Eric,

I rendered and opinion on that, DCC is worth the price/time and suggested that Big Sol, or anyone/everyone should consider how they want to run their layout before investing in ANY complex control system.

And,

This is what happens in normal conversation, they progress.

And,

You are not the board police.

Sheldon

P.S. - If Big Sol didn't get it by the first page of this post, it does not matter.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: SteamGene on August 13, 2007, 07:22:26 PM
It seems that Sol and many others might learn a great deal from this discussion.  One of the things he may learn is that many model railroaders, having found a method that works for him, decide that is the only way to do it.
Gene
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Atlantic Central on August 13, 2007, 07:25:53 PM
Eric,

One more thing, you blast us for our sidebar into computerized block control, but what about all the layout, size, shape, radius, etc, etc discussion? When the Bach Man needs a moderator, he will let you know.

Sheldon
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Craig on August 13, 2007, 08:02:57 PM
Quote from: Big Sol on August 09, 2007, 12:41:20 AM
I've got a 36" wide board, so yeah, I'm stuck with 15" turns for now.

Actually, since you ended up using flex track (on one end anyway) you could go with 17" radius. Just drill a hole in a yard stick and make yourself a compass, then trace the largest radius space will allow. You can leave your straight sections as is, and ease into them.
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Jim Banner on August 14, 2007, 03:59:26 AM
Thanks, Sheldon, for your response, particularly your review of what you want to accomplish.  I agree that Bruce Chubb's relay matrix system is obsolete.  In fact, the system I built 20 years ago used low level switching via CMOS analogue switches and boosted the output to track power levels, much like Oak Tree's block throttles.  I based the cost analyses on Chubb's system only because relays were mentioned.

You mentioned signals.  I believe that saving a bit of wire by using a lot of electronic encoding, as is done with DCC, does not make a lot sense.  Besides, trouble shooting is a lot easier when you have one wire for each block occupancy detector, one for each signal aspect, one to set each switch direction and one to report back switch direction.  The Oak Tree system would seem to be a good choice for signals, even if the trains were run by DCC.

Bottom line, it looks like the costs are comparible if you consider decoders for about 100 locomotives.   At that point, it would probably be the cost of the software and the ease of using it that would tip me one way or the other.  With as many locomotives as you have, the Oak Tree system would appear to be cheaper.

As far as Big Sol's question goes, I repeat that when he wants to run more than one train on his track, then he should seriously consider DCC.  But I will add that if he wants the two trains to run themselves, maybe he should look at something else.

Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Atlantic Central on August 14, 2007, 07:44:13 AM
Jim,

Thank you for sharing your experiance and knowledge. The software is still being tested. I have a copy but have not been able to actually run hard wired tests myself due to some time/personal matters. But a number of the other individuals on the "test team" are actually running their layouts with it.

Chuck at Oak Tree systems plans to make the software free and it is simple to use. No special computer knowledge needed. By simply maping the layout and a filling in charts all perameters are established. This is necessary for me as I am NOT a computer techie.

The only pieces left in the puzzle are the hand held controllers which are almost ready and any last software bugs.

And, Oak Tree does offer signaling and automation solutions for DCC.

Honestly, if I was building a layout that was, for example, a small short line, where signaling was not needed and large numbers of trains where not going to be operated at the same time by one person, I would use DCC. DCC does create the ultimate "engineer" experiance, no question.

But years ago I got the bug for a large, 1950's, Class I, double track, east coast, dizzingly busy railroad. I will keep working on that goal. And, like I said, I want to run at least most of it by myself when my fiends are not around.

I am part of a round robin group and operate a number of different layouts on a regular basis. Only about half are DCC, and some of those just very recently so. I have lots of experiance with a wide variety of DC control systems, and in my opinion, traditional cab control is the worst DC system.

But even without computerized block control, there are a number of very effective DC aproaches that are easy and fun to use. Layouts with well thought out "section" control, or various interpratations of Ed Ravencroft's Zone Control all work very well, depending on the layout size, shape and style.

Thanks again,

Sheldon
Title: Re: Is DCC worth the price/time?
Post by: Atlantic Central on August 14, 2007, 08:27:37 AM
Jim,

One other note on locomotives.

I model a freelanced, east coast Class one system set in 1954. My layout is designed for 30-40 car trains. As diesels go, all my units are powered, so a typical train is pulled by 3-4 units, F7's or GP7's or FA1's, etc.

Steam powered trains are often double headed, two 4-8-2's, 2-8-2's or 2-8-0's or even two 2-8-8-2's for long coal drags.

Even nine car passenger trains get two E8's or PA1's

Multiply that times the 35 stored trains and you see why the number of powered units that would need decoders is so high.

The goal is to capture that big time railroad feel.

Sheldon