I am absolutely new to model trains. Could someone please explain the difference between "motive power" and "locomotive"? I notice what looks like locomotives (to me!) in the motive power listing.
What would be a good source to increase my basic knowledge? I have read through some ten year old Atlas layout books/info, but this web site shows me that I need to educate myself.
I am interested in N-scale.
Paul-
Welcome to the hobby. I'm sure you'll find it full of things to learn, new friends and fun, even if it seems a little
confusing at first.
There isn't any difference between locomotive and motive power. I suppose one could say that self-moving cars, like
subway cars, are motive power but not locomotives but that would really be splitting hairs.
For new information, check to see if your local library subscribes to Model Railroader magazine. If so, that publication
will give you a lot of information itself plus, it will carry ads for publications from Kalmbach Publishing. (Kalmbach also
publihes MR.) If they don't get MR, look for a local hobby shop which caries model railroading merchandise. They
would almost certainly have a rack of Kalmbach books which you can peruse to see which ones would be most
helpful to you.
-- D
Thanks--I am headed to a local hobby shop in the next couple days, it will be nice to know what to look for.
Click on Motive power. You will see what is in there. Nothing is powered by steam.
Rich
Paul:
Welcome to a hobby that has been a lifetime passion for me and many others!
Here is a link to the National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) Introduction to Model Railroading:
http://www.nmra.org/beginner/ (http://www.nmra.org/beginner/)
It is totally free. You do not have to be a member, register or sign up to access any NMRA information. And, NO advertising! Just a lot of information on many aspects of the hobby. Be sure to follow the sub-links to see all that is offered.
Happy RRing,
Jerry
Well here's my take;
Motive power is the source that makes a locomotive move; it is what starts the process of work. It can be the wind, or maybe water, or electricity, or nuclear, or steam, or fire, (or whatever else) that can be used to produce work. It derives from a natural source.
Locomotive is that big heavy metal thing on top of the rails (and all its components) trying to move that consist, whether diesel, steam or electric driven.
Most modelers use the term "motive power" to mean the locomotive itself.
It's a context thing I guess.
Reading it here, I take it to mean the powered unit.
Perhaps the term "motive power" does not translate well.
Well, over here in the UK we used to have engine shed for steam locomotives, but now we have MPDS or Motive Power Depots. So I suggest Motive Power means diesel locomotive.
Not a big deal. It all comes under Motive Power from what I have found.
I suspect Bachmann broke it up to make two different categories. Steam and everything else.
Most of Motive Power is by electric motor or internal combustion engine. Ok, a few will want to argue, motor or engine. lol.
I notice the OP never came back.
Rich
QuoteI notice the OP never came back
and you say your eyes are bad. ;D
Wait a minute, I wanna get this right. ;)
Is the locomotive, the motive power?
Or, is the motive power, the locomotive?
Can a steam engine not be motive power in the same context?
We don't need no stinkin' physics.
And which is it? Motor or Engine?
Or does that depend on steam or diesel or electric?
Enquiring minds want to know... or maybe not...
I'm going to change trucks and wheels (or is it wheelsets?) on some Budd cars...
And is it switch or turnout? ::)
there are varying terms for those items. it all depends on what your perspective is.
when i worked with the railroad, the locomotives were referred to as "power" as in "spin the power' for turning the locomotive on a wye, or "tie the train down and leave the power running" for setting the brakes on the train to leave it unattended, but the locomotives running.
electric locomotives were commonly referred to as "motors" and some lines referred to their diesel power as motors as well. i've never heard of steamers being referred to as "motors".......
Motive power.
Is a stand alone locomotive be it steam, diesel or electric. It can also be referred to as plain "Power" but only in certain contexts.
In North America, a diesel is powered by a Prime Mover which in other English speaking parts of the the world will be referred to as the "Diesel Engine" or "Diesel Motor" or just plain "Engine." However, another word for locomotive is "Engine" as in "Steam Engine" or "Diesel Engine" but electric locomotives are always electric locomotives, not "Electric Engines". But then again, in North America, a diesel locomotive/engine is often referred to as a "Unit" as in "Diesel Unit" In the UK, diesel and electric locomotives as well as DEMUs and EMUs are referred to as "Traction" but not in North America
A "Motor" can be the prime mover/diesel engine in a locomotive or it can be a another name for an electric locomotive. A "Motor" can also be the name for an early design of diesel railcar, those nicknamed "Doodlebugs" and built before the RDC. But there's nothing to stop an RDC also being referred to as a "Motor". In the UK, a "motor" can also be a steam powered push-pull train that consists of up to four passenger cars, with a locomotive in the middle, or at one end if two cars or less. The engineer sits in a driving cab in the lead passenger car controlling the brakes while the fireman tended the fire and, in most cases, also ran the the locomotive/engine. In the UK, "motor" can also be the nickname for a diesel or electric multiple unit that replaced a steam push-pull train.
I think we'll end the lesson here as I think I've now made it all clear.
Questions?
Your engine, or motor, or unit, will not function without some sort of motive power.
Engines and motors do not create motive power but rather they create work.
Some words, terms, and phrases have evolved to encompass other meanings.
The true meaning of the phrase has been muddied.
You can label something pretty much whatever you want nowadays, like Rich says "not a big deal".
If you want to call a diesel or steam engine or motor, motive power, that's ok with me.
I'll still have a general idea of what you're talking about.
Toy train locomotives are a far stretch from motive power, but call it what you will.
Rule #1 applies. Be happy in your designated label.
And a question for the teach...
What is the form of motive power for a steam locomotive?
a) Water
b) Fire
c) Steam
d) a and b
e) a and c
f) b and c
g) all of the above
h) none of the above
i) the steam engine is of itself the motive power
There is a bonus slice of pumpkin pie today if you get it right.
Happy Thanksgiving
Isn't it perfectly good English to say that
"the motive power on this consist is three GP40s" or "three GP40s provide the motive power on this consist"
I think that motive power includes anything capable of moving under its own power.
It's perfectly good english where I come from.
Bruce
Quote from: James in FL on November 22, 2012, 11:35:05 AM
Your engine, or motor, or unit, will not function without some sort of motive power.
Engines and motors do not create motive power but rather they create work.
Some words, terms, and phrases have evolved to encompass other meanings.
The true meaning of the phrase has been muddied.
You can label something pretty much whatever you want nowadays, like Rich says "not a big deal".
If you want to call a diesel or steam engine or motor, motive power, that's ok with me.
I'll still have a general idea of what you're talking about.
Toy train locomotives are a far stretch from motive power, but call it what you will.
Rule #1 applies. Be happy in your designated label.
And a question for the teach...
What is the form of motive power for a steam locomotive?
a) Water
b) Fire
c) Steam
d) a and b
e) a and c
f) b and c
g) all of the above
h) none of the above
i) the steam engine is of itself the motive power
There is a bonus slice of pumpkin pie today if you get it right.
Happy Thanksgiving
Technically, where I come from, the "engine" parts of a "steam engine" are the cyclinders, motion and wheels. They are the "engine" as they provide the movement.
The boiler and firebox provide the fuel that powers the steam engine. i.e. the steam.
Or, a steam locomotive produces its power through a steam engine. The locomotive is fueled by burning some combustible material, usually coal, wood or oil, to produce steam in a boiler. It's the steam pruduced by the boiler which drives the steam engine. The engine consisting of the cylinders, valve gear (motion), frame and driving wheels.
To Quote Wiki: -
In thermodynamics, motive power is an agency, such as water or steam, used to impart motion. Generally, motive power is defined as a natural agent, as water, steam, wind, electricity, etc., used to impart motion to machinery; a motor; a mover. The term may also define something, as a locomotive or a motor, which provides motive power to a system. In current use, motive power may be thought of as a synonym for either "work", i.e. force times distance, or "power", an effect producing motion, depending on the context of the discussion.
Wow! Thank you all for your helpful responses. I generally only fool with the computer when it is quiet at work, thus the delay in my response. :)
I am experienced aircraft modeler, but I am learning a new vocabulary related to trains, which is part of the fun.
Thanks again!
Now we can split hairs and parse words! :)
In my experience in railroading, "motive power" means "locomotive". This is not a physics definition, but a railroad definition. A locomotive is an independently controlled unit or linked group of units, capable of moving cars, propelled by any form of energy.
Under these definitions, "motive power" refers to any locomotive propelled by any form of energy.
Water and fire are not motive power. In a steam locomotive, water only plays an intermediate role in allowing the chemical bond energy in fire to be transformed into mechanical force. Water does not do this by loosening its own chemical bond energy, but instead does this by changing its state of matter from a liquid to a gas.
Fire releases chemical bond energy of the fuel. This bond energy in the fuel is the ultimate source of power in a heat engine.
Same goes for internal combustion engines, except for them, water is not needed as an interim means of transferring energy. The bond energy in the fuel is converted to mechanical energy in the engine, then converted to electrical energy in the generator, then converted once more into mechanical energy in the motors.
An electric locomotive draws ready-made electricity and converts it into mechanical energy in its motors. As its power source arrives ready to use, it is not an "engine". But it is a locomotive.
As has been pointed out, a steam locomotive usually has only one steam "engine", but could have two or (rarely) more.
Steam is not fuel. Chemical bond energy is not released in steam. Steam is a transmission fluid.
In an internal combustion locomotive, the engine itself (Diesel or turbine) is referred to as the "prime mover". It is the original place where chemical bond energy in the fuel is converted to mechanical energy. Steam locomotives do not have a prime mover. The chemical bond energy of the fuel is converted to steam in the boiler, but is not converted to mechanical energy until it gets to the engine.
Electric locomotives do not contain a prime mover. The prime mover sits back in the stationary power station.
Les
Dd-
Don't forget that steam expands in the cylinders!
Also, the ultimate source of power for an electric locomotive isn't the catenary or other electrical supply; it's hydro, coal, oil, gas, nuclear, solar/wind or even tidal.
-- D