will HOn3 or HOn30 train sets run on ho scale tracks? ???
844-
Well, yes, HOn30 and HOn3 will run on HO scale track but not on HO gauge track. That's not doubletalk. What I
mean is that the proportions are 1:87, the same as regular HO, but these are narrow gauge trains which run on
track which is either 30 scale inches or 36 scale inches wide. There were some other gauges, like the famous Maine
two-footers, but the 30" and 36" gauges were by far the most common. Regular North American railroads run on
rails which are 4'8.5" apart (56.5").
There were several narrow gauge railroads, primarily in mountainous regions with mining and logging industries. The
narrow gauge trains could be built less expensively than full gauge trains and they were much better suited to the
often very tight curves and steep grades commonly found on logging and mining pikes. Also, many of the logging and
mining railroads were essentially temporary so the lower construction costs were very desirable. There were a
number of permanent narrow gauge railroads, including the Colorado and Southern, East Broad Top and parts of the
D&RGW, to name a few. Several of these still operate as tourist railroads.
I think that HOn30 will run on N-gauge track but HOn3 has its own track. You can purchase it ready built, including
turnouts and crossings. You can even buy dual-gauge track which can be used by both full gauge and narrow gauge
trains.
-- D
...HOn30, HOn3, or HOe? For our English readers: OO/9 (yes, I realize OO scale is slightly larger than HO). If this isn't confusing enough, delve into the whole world of 'G-scale'.
Crazy huh?
Ray
Hon3 is a little wider track than Hon30 but still 1/87.
Rich
ok just wondering
I think the important thing to remember here is that HOn30/HOe is HO scale (1:87.1) cars, structures, rails, ties, etc. - running on 9 mm gauge (which, unfortunately, is the same as N-gauge). Scale and gauge are very different terms. No Martha, you shouldn't run HOn30/HOe trains on N-gauge track. The rails, ties, and tie spacing will be in N-scale (1:148) whilst everything else will be in 1:87.1 scale [HO]and will look strange. For best results, use HOn30/HOe track for an HOn30/HOe scale layout.
It also follows that one really shouldn't mix HO scale cars with OO units. OO is wildly popular in Europe (especially the U.K.) but is really 1:76.2 and therefore is a little larger than HO...but uses the same track gauge. For more information on the subject see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OO_gauge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OO_gauge)
Are we having fun yet?
Ray
Ray,
You are giving me a headache! :D
Since 9mm gauge is both N and HOn30, this is unfortunate only if you run HO scale models on N scale track, and then only unfortunate because the tie spacing looks wrong for HO scale.
But, on the other hand, if HOn30 was not 9mm (and therefore a common gauge with N), it is highly unlikely there would be any HOn30 equipment at all. It is a pretty rare track gauge. Consider the availability of HOn2 equipment. In this country, I think 24" gauge railroads were much more popular than 30" railroads. I even know of an instance where the same town in New Mexico was served by both 36" and 24" gauge railroads.
Then again, some people have model railroads with no scenery at all. If all they have is track, they probably are not too worried about running HOn30 equipment on N scale track. After all, it fits! ::)
G scale! There is no such thing! G gauge, yes. I won't even go there.
Les
I saw a big Sn3 modular setup and was surprised at how the models could be mistaken for HO. The gauge is 9/16 of an inch wich is only about a sixteenth narrower than HO.
I saw no mention of F scale - which can be added to the plethora of proportions that use G Gauge track.
Life was a lot simpler when there was only Lionel or American Flyer to deal with!
Les - Gosh, the last thing I wanted to do was give you a headache! You actually 'hit the nail on the head' when you talked about HO scale cars on N scale track (notice I didn't say 'gauge'). You made the point I guess I didn't. The HOn30/HOe cars will run on N-scale/gauge track...but will look strange.
Another good point you raised is why 30" gauge? I guess the Rail Gods had to choose from the myriad of gauges that were evident in U.S. railroads throughout history and settled on 30". Having one, commercially available, narrow gauge probably influenced manufacturers to 'get on board' and produce narrow gauge products.
[Mr. Bach Man please excuse this 'plug' for another's track products - I am trying to stay within the forum rules.]
Peco makes some excellent track products in OO/9 (with is equivalent to HOn30/HOe). They seem to have entered the narrow gauge market recently; but have a decent variety of track to offer. Tillig also is in the narrow gauge market. Tillig offers dual-gauge track and turnouts as well - should you want to consider a conjoined track plan of standard (HO/OO) and narrow (HOn30, HOe, OO/9) gauges.
Hey Woody, you are right...it is confusing! [Now I'm the one with the headache.] Say, when are 'they' going to make Civil War products in broad gauge?
Regards,
Ray
The 'why' of 30" gauge is simple, ever since home computers became commercially available the "1/2" and "1/4" keys typewriters and Wang Word Processors used to use have disappeared. Which made it harder to specifiy the correct Xn2-1/2 foot gauge (Where X=O/S/HO/TT/N/Z) in publications, so it got 'shorthanded' into Xn30 inch gauge.
The problem being, 2ft and 3ft gauge are still specified in the correct feet, not inches. So occasionally people read an article about an Xn3 (3ft) gauge layout, and think there was a typo and it's supposed to be Xn30 (30in/2-1/2ft) gauge. Or they'll read an article in an older magazine refering to Xn2-1/2 ft gauge, and not realize it's the same as Xn30 in gauge.
In the US, either all of them need to start being referred to in inches, e.g., Xn24, Xn30, Xn36, or (since the 1/2 and 1/4 key will probably never come back to the keyboard) people need to get used to using Xn2-1/2 so the correct Xn2, Xn2-1/2, and Xn3 ft gauges can be used.
Len
Quote from: Woody Elmore on November 25, 2012, 09:53:57 AM
I saw no mention of F scale - which can be added to the plethora of proportions that use G Gauge track.
Quote from: CNE Runner on November 25, 2012, 10:42:22 AM
Another good point you raised is why 30" gauge? I guess the Rail Gods had to choose from the myriad of gauges that were evident in U.S. railroads throughout history and settled on 30". Having one, commercially available, narrow gauge probably influenced manufacturers to 'get on board' and produce narrow gauge products.
Quote from: Len on November 25, 2012, 11:43:43 AM
The 'why' of 30" gauge is simple, ever since home computers became commercially available the "1/2" and "1/4" keys typewriters and Wang Word Processors used to use have disappeared.
Woody-
"F" is usually lumped in with the rest of the scales which make up the G-gauge mishmash.
Ray-
I don't think the rail gods selected
Xn30 because you can't easily do fractions on word processors.
Xn30 isn't the only or even the most widely manufactured narrow gauge. That would be
Xn3, with two-foot track manufactured as well.
Len-
It is actually very easy to do fractions on word processors, though doing so on this board isn't (B'man -
not a complaint).
But, for example: HOn2
1/
2 -- D
Quote from: CNE Runner on November 25, 2012, 10:42:22 AM
Les - Gosh, the last thing I wanted to do was give you a headache! You actually 'hit the nail on the head' when you talked about HO scale cars on N scale track (notice I didn't say 'gauge'). You made the point I guess I didn't. The HOn30/HOe cars will run on N-scale/gauge track...but will look strange.
Another good point you raised is why 30" gauge? I guess the Rail Gods had to choose from the myriad of gauges that were evident in U.S. railroads throughout history and settled on 30". Having one, commercially available, narrow gauge probably influenced manufacturers to 'get on board' and produce narrow gauge products.
[Mr. Bach Man please excuse this 'plug' for another's track products - I am trying to stay within the forum rules.]
Peco makes some excellent track products in OO/9 (with is equivalent to HOn30/HOe). They seem to have entered the narrow gauge market recently; but have a decent variety of track to offer. Tillig also is in the narrow gauge market. Tillig offers dual-gauge track and turnouts as well - should you want to consider a conjoined track plan of standard (HO/OO) and narrow (HOn30, HOe, OO/9) gauges.
Hey Woody, you are right...it is confusing! [Now I'm the one with the headache.] Say, when are 'they' going to make Civil War products in broad gauge?
Regards,
Ray
Sorry I still can't get the hang of the Quote button!
However, I just wanted to say that PECO have been doing narrow gauge (009) track and loco body kits for at least 25 to 30 years (although I'm not sure if this was initially restricted to the UK). Although Bachmann Europe make some really nice HOe locos and rolling stock (under the Lilliput brand) I cannot seem to find any track. As to using n gauge track vs HOe or HOn30 track I thing it depends on your Railway or Railroad (or Tramway in my case). I find that the slightly over-scale n gauge track looks more like the track used on the prototype I am trying to recreate (the 2' 4 1/2" Glyn Valley Tramway in Mid Wales). I guess it's a case of look at your prototype and shop around for the best match!
Regards
Steve
I also wish bachmann would make it's On30 range in on HOn30 - I would but a dozen Wood Side-Dump Cars straight off as they are very similar to some I've been trying (and failing!) to scratch build for years.
Steve - Wow, I didn't realize that Peco had been in the HOe 'business' that long! I assumed that all the new advertisements in Railway Modeller were for new stock.
I absolutely agree that Bachmann should make some (all?) of their On30 products in HOn30/HOe. That little On30 Davenport is neat...as are the Forneys. Maybe, just maybe, if enough folks get interested in HOn30/HOe that will happen. I, personally, don't have the room for O-scale trains running on HO trackage. It may be that as the MinitrainS line(s) grow in popularity (if they grow in popularity), more manufacturers will enter they fray.
Everyone needs to check out the Bachmann European website to see some truly outstanding products. On my future dual-gauge exhibition layout (HO & HOn30) I plan on having at least one Terrier on the standard gauge side (Bachmann UK or Hornby).
Cheers,
Ray
81F-
You can erase whatever part of a quote you don't want as long as you leave the beginning and ending quotes in
place, and all coding for the quoted section unchanged. Then you just hit an enter or two at the very end of the
quoted section and start your own statement.
-- D
Quote from: Len on November 25, 2012, 11:43:43 AM
The 'why' of 30" gauge is simple, ever since home computers became commercially available the "1/2" and "1/4" keys typewriters and Wang Word Processors used to use have disappeared. Which made it harder to specifiy the correct Xn2-1/2 foot gauge (Where X=O/S/HO/TT/N/Z) in publications, so it got 'shorthanded' into Xn30 inch gauge.
Well, the problem there is On3 and On30 were in common usage many decades before PCs were available. Kalmbach Publications (MR, Trains) takes the stand that since On2 and On3 are in feet, On30 would mean 30 feet instead of 30 inches, so they use On2-1/2 for "two and a half feet".
Generally, everyone else (including Bachmann) uses On30 and aren't confused by it. ;)
If you think HOn3 and HOn30 is confusing you should look at the different gauge/scale combinations for narrow gauge used in the UK. Appart from G scale there is another large scale called SM32, this is 16mm/ft gauge running on O gauge (32mm) track to represent 2 foot gauge. The British equvalent to On30 is O 16.5, there is also a gauge called O 9 for those wishing to model 18" prototypes in O scale.
In the smaller scales (4mm to the foot) we have OO9 (with kits available for prototypes from 18" to 3" gauge) although there is the more correct OOn3 for the 3" gauges. However, I know of several who use TTn3 (3mm/foot scale on 9mm (n gauge) track to model 3ft gauge prototypes. and then for 2mm/foot narrowgauge there is n6.5 (2mm/foot on Z gauge track) - someone will probably tell me I've forgotton one or two!
Also, to the best of my knowlege there are no-mass produced ready to run British outline narrow gauge models particularly in the smaller scales.
81F - On my first visit to Britain years and years ago I found the old pounds, shillings, pence, hard to deal with! All the gauges and sizes are over the top. Can you imagine trying to keep a well stocked hobby shop?
Quote from: Woody Elmore on November 29, 2012, 10:22:16 AM
81F - On my first visit to Britain years and years ago I found the old pounds, shillings, pence, hard to deal with!
I could deal with pounds, shillings, and pence, but crowns, half crowns, and guineas? :D
81F - I was under the impression that several manufacturers (Peco to name one) offered RTR rolling stock in OO/9. Of course there are the MinitrainS line...but they are German (or at least the Koppel locomotive is).
On second thought you may be more correct. I just checked through my latest issue of Railway Modeller and none of the big vendors (E. Hatton's, Cheltenham Model Centre, The Signalbox) offered OO/9 locomotives or rolling stock for sale. This is odd since all these 'houses' list OO/9 track components.
Ray
I've just checked out the PECO website and it looks as if they've just got the preproduction samples and they will be releasing them in the new year. Interestingly the models are of Lynton and Barstaple Railway Prototypes. This was the Railway that owned LYN made by Bachmann in their Big Haulers® range - now wouldn't that loco be nice in 009 or HOn30?
As I mentioned earlier, the model railroad industry is probably waiting to see if HOn30, OO/9 becomes economically viable - before jumping into the 'pool'. I can imagine the production costs would be rather large for this type of endeavor.
Since much of my interest revolves around industrial/agricultural/waterfront operations the MinitrainS line of HOn30 trains meets my needs. Without any disparaging remarks about MinitrainS (I have none to offer), I would like relatively inexpensive, DCC equipped, locomotives (and their attendant rolling stock) with Bachmann quality and reliability...and, yes, they can be in English prototype.
Bachmann (and some others) have been wildly successful with their On30 line (although they are still large, 1:48 models). It is entirely possible one of the major manufacturers will chance having the same success with HOn30. We can only hope as many of us do not have the space for even On30 trains.
Ray
Remind me, do the Brits use 1/4" scale or 7mm scale for O scale modeling?
I checked through a couple of issues of both Railway Modeller and Continental Modeller and they both mention only O-gauge. For example: SMR offers resin model building kits in O Gauge, Mikron Model Railways has an O Gauge section in their ad as does E. Hatton's. The Railway Modeller "News" section is divided by gauge and has an O Gauge section. One of the featured layouts (Plan of the Month) is a "freight scheme for O gauge". While not definitive, it appears that Brits refer to "O Gauge" and not (usually) 7mm or 1/4" scale.
Perhaps some of our U.K. brothers can shed more light on the subject.
Ray
That's the problem we run into over hear all the time - referring to scales by the term "gauge". As discussed, HO scale is 1/87 reduction from the prototype. HO gauge rightly refers to the gauge of the track for standard gauge. But there is HOn3 gauge - still the same scale but modeling 3 foot narrow gauge. I know the Brits have long had the issue of using 4mm scale trains on HO gauge track, making the models oversize for the track gauge. The old continental O (or "zero") gauge was 7mm scale, but I wasn't sure if the Brits did the same as we did and rounded the scale down to 1/4", leaving the track gauge alone.
The use, and continued use, of the so-called English measurement system rather than metric is explains why Eoropean and US models are
not exactly the same size and aren't even in the proper relation to one another in the US. We round 3.5mm to 1:87, use 1/4" instead of
7mm (for O gauge), and (I think) round 1.75mm to 1:160 for N scale. Thus, all of our scales are just a little off. O gauge itself is slightly off
in the scale versus gauge dimension, HO is larger than the half-O-gauge proportion it is supposed to be, and N is a bit larger than half the size
of HO. I suppose we could try to convert to metric scale on this side of the pond but that would be just about impossible given the huge
installed base of off-scale layouts and equipment.
The US was supposed to completely convert to metric in the mid-1980s but it never happened. The auto industry almost got there, largely
due to the enormous number of imported metric-size vehicles here, but most other industries just didn't bother to convert. There are some
valid reasons for that, I suppose. For example, how would you like to run a building center which has to stock both metric and English lumber?
Just wall studs would come in both 93" and something on the order of 235 cm. They would be too close in size to discriminate visually, but they
couldn't be used interchangeably. Throw in the rest of the sizes of dimensional lumber, plywood, manufactured building products, hardwoods,
treated lumber and the rest and you have a bona fide nightmare. And that's without looking at the confusion and duplication for lumber
harvesters, mills and factories.
Interestingly, only one industry has completely converted to metric worldwide, and it did it long before the pretend US mandate. Which one was
it? The liquor industry. Why did they do it? They could save about .4 ounces in a standard bottle of wine or spirits. The old "fifth" was about 25.6
ounces while the "metric fifth" is about 25.2 ounces. The savings (for the brewers, distillers and vintners, not us) are even greater for the "party"
"half" gallon. That bottle was really 1.75 quarts, or 56 ounces. The metric size is 1.5 liters, just over 50 ounces.
-- D
On30 runs on ho track hon3 is 3foot narrow gauge and hon30 is 2 foot narrow gauge, runs on n scale track. I have modeld both and found hon30 works really well for mines small lumber farms ect ect. Most of the 2 footers are in main so can only model a prototypical railway would be modeld. Hon3 is any narrow gauge line that can be found ranging from east broad top to C&S. On30 is 3foot narrow for O scale.
Just a correction - On3 is three-foot narrow gauge for O scale. On30 is approx. 30" narrow gauge for O scale, running on HO gauge track.
Although I have never modelled in O gauge I understand that 7mm to 1 foot is used. At the risk of upsetting some of my older countrymen Britain is virtually metricated to the extent that Imperial sized drills and screw threads (although I know the latter were different in the US) are impossible to find in highstreet stores.
The only things left in regular use are miles, miles per hour, pints (in measuring beer and sometimes still milk). Pounds (weight) and ounces are generally not used (although this is recent). However, there are many things available with odd metric weights which convert very nicely into round imperial unit!
How about "stones?" Isn't that still used for weight?
Imperial measure tools - takes me back to my college days when Sunbeams, Triumphs and Austin-Healeys were popular. It was always a challenge to keep them running and the Imperial tools were a must!