Now that it look's like Walthers will not be doing another subway train for some time after the Proto 1000 R-21/22 subway sets, will Bachmann consider doing a subway set, either another New York City subway/elevated train, or one in Philadelphia, Boston, or Chicago, in HO scale?
Dear Frank,
Nothing has been announced to date, but I'll pass along your request.
Have fun!
the Bach-man
Dear Bach-Man - a few of us over on THIS side would like to see the Portland MAX..... ;D
Just a thort.
Best wishes
tac
www.ovgrs.org
Quote from: tac on August 08, 2007, 03:18:59 AM
Dear Bach-Man - a few of us over on THIS side would like to see the Portland MAX..... ;D
Just a thort.
Best wishes
tac
www.ovgrs.org
If you want to see the Portland MAX being towed by a tow truck, Click Here....http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?66801 (http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?66801) :) ;D :D
Neat modern LRVs, Tac! Maybe you could also let IHP know (they already make a "low floor" LRV model similar to the low floor cars operated by MAX:
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?51339 (http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?51339) (Prototype)
http://ihphobby.tripod.com/hopages/hohblr.html (http://ihphobby.tripod.com/hopages/hohblr.html) (Model)
The model even has the little compartment over the center truck, but lacks the second set of doors.
Paul F.
If bachmann were considering doing Rapid Transit Cars I would like the San Diego Trolley and the Washington Metro in ho.
Walthers made the D.C. Metro a few years ago in HO. It was a disaster finacially, IIRC. After that mess, Walthers isn't likely to try again.
I've gotten a lot of inspiration for transit modeling from this site:
http://mysite.verizon.net/sctransit/nycmta.htm (http://mysite.verizon.net/sctransit/nycmta.htm)
I'm hoping to attend this year's meet at Rutgers in New Brunswick. Wouldn't it be great to see pre-production models of the Bachmann Peter Witt at the show? ;)
I couldn't imagine a more appropriate venue to show off this model to a crowd of interested modelers (i.e. potential consumers) ;D
Paul F.
Quote from: Frankford el car on August 07, 2007, 10:57:14 PM
Now that it look's like Walthers will not be doing another subway train for some time after the Proto 1000 R-21/22 subway sets, will Bachmann consider doing a subway set, either another New York City subway/elevated train, or one in Philadelphia, Boston, or Chicago, in HO scale?
I would like to see an IRT Low-V set:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?40717 (http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?40717)
While the Low-V cars are NOT the same as the original 1907 stock that ran on the Market Street Elevated in Philly, they are "close" in appearance, and would be close enough for me to want to see them lettered for each system:
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?46012 (http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?46012)
Boston also had similar equipment (the roofline would need some work):
http://davesrailpix.com/boston/htm/bos281.htm (http://davesrailpix.com/boston/htm/bos281.htm)
While certainly not a "universal" design, it offers a great starting point for transit modelers.
Paul F.
Just a reminder for anyone in the Northern NJ - NYC area.
The New York City Model Transit Association & The Shore Line Trolley Museum are sponsoring the 2007 Transit Modelers Convention and Trolley Meet. Here's a link to their site (announcement):
http://mysite.verizon.net/sctransit/2007details.htm (http://mysite.verizon.net/sctransit/2007details.htm)
It will be held at Rutgers on October 20th. Have not heard whether the Bach Man will be there with the new Peter Witt prototypes.
Thanks.
Paul F.
No discount on admission?
Of course, this event is also happening on the 20th:
http://www.mnr.org/mnr/html/harmon_openhouse.htm (http://www.mnr.org/mnr/html/harmon_openhouse.htm)
Hmmm....decisions, decisions.
Paul F.
Prototype = free
Outcome = only pictures
Model = admission
Outcome = a model purchased or expecting a good looking Peter Witt
Go with the Model event - it is priceless
I grew up a block and a half South of the 56th St. el' station in West Philadelphia, and actually rode on the Market Street, and Frankford cars. I'd like to see an actual Market Street car in HO scale, rather than a Hedley (standard body) IRT Low-V, painted for the cars in Philly, but I can live with it, to get a steel-bodied subway-el' car. But if Bachmann does an actual Philly el' car, why not the Frankford cars themselves?
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?74484
They had an arch roof similar in profile to the Baltimore Peter Witt, and lasted in service from 1922, through 1960, with a half dozen lasting into the early 1980's, as a work train.
On the other hand, if it has to be an IRT Low-V, how about something a little different, such as the 1939 Worlds Fair Low-V's?
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?7173
Not only did they break away from the standard Low-V body style, they operated on the same lines as the standard cars, and were even MU'ed into the same trains with them at times.
If you'd like a Boston subway-elevated car, how about the Osgood-Bradley "East Boston Tunnel" cars, that were used on the MBTA's Blue Line?
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?18319
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?18293
Not only did these cars operate on conventional third rail, they also used pantographs on the majority of the outdoor portion of the line. A decided advantage for modelers like myself, who chose to not run these trains "two-rail" like steam or a diesel, and don't have "live" third rails on layout trackage.
I grew up in Aldan, riding the Philadelphia Suburban Transit trolley line to 69th Street Terminal, and rode the M-3 Budd cars (Almond Joys) to work in Philly on the El (before relocating out of the Philly area).
I like the idea of a model of the "Frankford Cars", too.
I only suggested that modeling the "Market Street Cars" (similar in rough appearance to older IRT Low-V cars) would enable the manufacturer (Bachmann, we'd hope! ;)) to also letter them for three city systems. This would appeal to a broader range of modelers to cost justify producing the model (Bachmann needs to earn their profits, too -- this is the USA after all ;D)
My real interest is to see Bachmann produce a freight/milk/goods trolley like Red Arrow #7:
http://davesrailpix.com/pw/htm/pw073.htm (http://davesrailpix.com/pw/htm/pw073.htm)
This freight motor was initially used to carry goods from farm to city (transfer to wagosn and PRT freight motors at 63rd street):
http://davesrailpix.com/pw/htm/pw196.htm (http://davesrailpix.com/pw/htm/pw196.htm)
Another car would be this one that was designed to run from West Chester to 69th, and then up on the El to Center City (note end doors to allow conductors between coupled cars):
http://davesrailpix.com/pw/htm/pw202.htm (http://davesrailpix.com/pw/htm/pw202.htm)
This interurban car could, while specific to the P&WTC, could be decorated for many lines and I think modelers would love it.
Of course, this mode of operation (trolley on the el) was never implemented in Philly, but was seen in Chicago -- CNS&M and the A&E lines).
Paul F.
I would think all they would need would be to make a body for a freight trolley
The problem with modelling Rapid Transit is that there are many systems but really only a handful of dedicated modellers. Also there is a large variety of rolling stock. New York City must have had dozens of different cars over the years.
A friend used to tell people that he had a working model of the NYC transit system. When people would ask if they could see it, he'd say: "How can you? It runs in tunnels under the house."
Perhaps the perception is, that there is only "a handful" of dedicated rapid transit modelers. More modelers in New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, and Boston, are more familiar with the rapid transit lines, than with Amtrak, CSX, and Norfolk Southern. And in those cities, a lot of Amtrak employees get to and from work, on the rapid transit lines that run past the Amtrak stations. Some of which are model railroaders.
I doubt that there is a large enough group of people out there to support the expense of tooling up for rapid transit cars. The big issue is what city and what era.
There are NYC modelers who'd love to see some IRT low voltage cars. Yet they were retired before many of today's fans were born. Sure there are a few opportunities to ride in them when they hold a fan trip but would that support producing them?
Also, to be NYC prototypical you need 8 to 10 cars to make a train. That's a big investment.
Woody,
I appreciate your comments, but I don't agree. ;)
Would your comment be equally appropriate if the subject wasn't rapid transit, but say B-mann's decision to make "logging" engines (the three truck shay was a radical departure for B-mann at that time), or certain prototypes that have limited appeal (On30 0-4-2 tank engines?).
Should manufacturers only produce the most commonly accepted products --- say F-7s :D or only USRA steam ;D -- and never anything odd like a baldwin road switcher, or say an Alco DL-109? Simarly, should manufacturers avoid smaller roads like New Haven or Reading? Just because a product or road name appeals to a small group doesn't mean it won't be accepted or profitable.
Look at On30. There was a dedicated group of On30 modelers before B-mann produced more products and we could have easily wondered "what are they thinking making On30?" But it took off and people got excited about it and more products were produced. Maybe following LifeLikes R17s with a different rapid transit model will spark more attention and create a new market for even more products.
Regarding era of prototype....Low-V cars were retired before I was born, but I like to model the 1920s. I doubt that criteria (modeling trains that ran during your own lifespan) applies to a lot of modelers -- civil war era modelers are probably happy that B-mann produces their early era 4-4-0s for example (and these modelers almost certainly were not around to railfan during the 1800's!) :o
Regarding the need to model 8-10 car trains -- if the objection is that it will cost a lot, then why would anyone model full passenger consists (look at Walthers GN Empire builder, and Hiawatha passenger sets). Stating that the length of the train makes it cost prohibitive and therefore an undesirable model would also "rule out" coal unit trains and long strings of auto racks or grain trains. ???
I'm just saying that if we never try something new, we'll only ever model Pennsy K-4s, ATSF Warbonnet F7s, and 40 foot box cars painted oxide red. (I'm being extreme to illustrate a point).
I respect your opinion, but I don't necessarily agree with it.
Paul F.
Woody, I have to agree with Paul F.;
First, your assertion that all pre-1940 rapid transit (subway-elevated) trains were retired long before most current modelers could ride them, is inaccurate. The Chicago Transit Authority didn't retire their 1922-built 4000-series cars, until 1973. I was seventeen at that time. The Southeasrtern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (SEPTA), didn't retire the 1928-built, 1936-built, and 1938-built cars on the Broad Street Subway in Philadelphia, until 1982, when I was twenty-six. And the IND R-1's-thru-R-9's in New York, didn't make their final revenue runs until approx. 1977.
Now, on to your point about train length. THe IRT, and BMT in New York, as well as the CTA in Chicago, and SEPTA in Philadelphia, have run trains as short as two cars, in regular mid-day service, as well as six-thru-eleven-car trains during the AM and PM rushes. That's the point of couplers, to allow assembling and disassembling trains to lengths required for the traffic demand.
As to your assertion that most current modelers have no interest in pre-war (1939-45) rapid transit, then why has The Bach Mann seen fit to announce production of a 1930's-era Peter Witt trolley, which is a form of rapid transit?
For those that would prefer a more current rapid transit car, the IRT boast's the R-62's, and R-142's. The CTA has their 2200-thru-3400-series' cars in operation. And the MBTA has their Hawker-Sidley Blue Line cars, dating from approx. 1980, which are about to be replaced with newer cars themselves. All of which are of reasonable length to use on relative tight (15-inch radius) curves, as well as every car to have ever operated on the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad/Port Authority Trans Hudson (H&M/PATH) lines between Newark, NJ, and Lower Manhattan.
The point is, that there is just as much variety to chose from for rapid transit modelers to state their preference, as there are for steam, diesel, and heavy electric modelers. It's simply a matter of the majority stating the car(s) most preferred, to Bachmann, or another manufacturer.
You guys make some good points. I never meant to imply that young modellers aren't interested in things that ran before they were born.
My point is, just by reading the posts, that a company could produce all manner of rapid transit cars and still not make all the modellers happy. It just wouldn't make economic sense for a company.
I remember riding the old BMT articulated cars out to Coney Island. Three cars and four trucks. They'd be an impressive model ( and may have been done in brass at one time). I have no idea how many 3 car units were run together but those trains were long. They may have run 2 car trains in Chicago but I remember 6 car minimums on the IRT "1" train. IND trains often were (and are) 10 cars long. A modeller would need lots of rolling stock to duplicate the prototype.
By the way, I've been messing with trains for a long. long tiome and I welcome any models that will get someone into the hobby, even Penn Central models.
Woody,
You're a great sport -- I'm glad you didn't see my comments as any kind of "flame-thing". ;)
I think that the BMT articulated cars would be an awesome model (maybe I can build one out of an MTH triplex with a set of lifelike R17 bodies -- just kidding! ;D)
Seriously, the BMT model would be very impressive, especially as you pointed out -- if two or more sets were coupled together!
Paul F.
Woody;
The IRT routinely ran two-car trains on the Second Ave. el' in Manhattan, the Polo Grounds Shuttle between 155th St. in Manhattan, and the Jerome Ave. el' in the Bronx, to 167th St., as well as the Dyre Ave. Line between 180th St., and Dyre Ave. The BMT ran two-car trains on the Culver Shuttle, Franklin Shuttle, and Lexington Ave. el'. And Staten Island Rapid Transit also ran two-car trains, prior to being re-equipted with the R-44's. Plus there's the IRT's Grand Central-Times Square Shuttle. So short trains are not out of the realm of operation, on New York subway and el' lines. Even the Third Ave. el' routinely ran trains of 3-5 cars, depending on the traffic level.
Keep in mind, a ten-car train is not necessary for a realistic rapid transit train, anymore than three SD-40's, and one hundred quad-hoppers are required, to run a unit coal train on a layout. It's just not practical, as you'd end up having trains on an el' so long, that the lead car is rolling into a station, just as the trailing end car is leaving the preceeding station. A 4, 5, or 6-car train is plenty long enough, for an HO scale layout, as the el' stations on my layout are just under three feet long, and a four-car train of the Proto 1000 R-17's or R-21's, uses almost the entire platform length.
Some additional info on BMT Triplex:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/bmt-d.html (http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/bmt-d.html)
And some photos:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?26365 (http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?26365)
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?6513
Paul F.
For those who aren't comfortable with a short rapid transit train, here's a photo of a three-car train of the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad D-Class cars near Newark, NJ, near the end of their operating lives, in 1958.
http://www.hudsoncity.net/tubesenglish/galleryframesetcars.html
Wow - the Polo Grounds shuttle - and the Franklin Avenue shuttle. I must admit to some ignorance of these arcane topics. I remember leaving the Polo Grounds once with my grandfather when some kids decided to go wild - I guess the Giants had won. They unscrewed most of the light bulbs and through them out the open windows!
I completely forgot about the Times Square shuttle (I think the MTA has also!)
My point is not that there weren't short trains, but rather, many trains run 6-8 cars (even 10). To prototypically model rapid transit you will eventually want to have a more prototypical length train.
As I previously wrote, I'm for the production of any model that runs on two rails. I do think that the rapid transit area is a small market and there are hunddreds of prototypes. A manufacturer would have to be very wary of producing models that may not sell.
Frankford El Car:
I assume you're already aware of the Budd M-3 being available?
http://motormanmodels.tripod.com/hophotos/hobuddelcars.jpg (http://motormanmodels.tripod.com/hophotos/hobuddelcars.jpg)
Nice model!
Paul F.
Speaking of rapid transit - there was news last week that a French company building rapid transit rolling stock (and maybe stuff for Amtrak) is having problems meeting deadlines and maintaining quality.
What ever happened to Budd, Pullman Standard and Magor? Why are American transit systems reduced to getting stuff made in France, of all places? Does anyone remember the Renault Le Car? The French workers work a 32 hour week as a rule and get off the month of July. I see the problem; they are overworked.
Woody
A bit off topic?
Paul F.;
Yes, I've seen the models of the Budd cars that ran on the el' in Philly. In fact, my first ride on the prototype cars was when I was four years old (1960), and I even remember riding the two car series that were in use, when the Budd cars were delivered. Used to bicycle out to the 69th St. yard abd shop complex and watch the activity, as it was across the street from a hobby shop, where I shopped for model train items. 69th St. Shop was the prototype for a four-track carshop that I kitbashed for my subway-el' layout, out of the old Revell two-track enginehouse kits.
Yeah, I'd like to see Bachmann do Chicago's L and Philly's Speedline...NY is self-explainitory ;).
There have been several releases over the years, of CTA 4000, 6000, and 1-50 series el' cars. If a Chicago el' car is done in a plastic body, I'd like to see either the 1800-series wood el' cars that were used on the Lake St. L', or the 2800-series deck-roof wood cars that were used on the Met L'. Both were closed-end cars, which were capable of running in the same train with the steel 4000-series cars, and saw service up until the end of wood car use on the CTA, in 1957. That would also make them credible on a Chicago-based layout, with either the 4000's, or 6000's, as both car series were in use at the same time with the wood cars, between 1951, and 1957, sometimes on the same lines.
Quote from: Frankford el car on October 05, 2007, 08:48:10 PM... That would also make them credible on a Chicago-based layout, ...
Guess what. :D
I'm building a Chicago based layout.
Frankford El Car,
Did you mean a wooden car like this:
http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/gallery/images/wood/MWSERR842.jpg (http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/gallery/images/wood/MWSERR842.jpg)
Or like this?
http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/gallery/images/wood/crt1706.jpg (http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/gallery/images/wood/crt1706.jpg)
There is a great gallery at:
http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/gallery/index.html (http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/gallery/index.html)
Unfortunately, I am not nearly as familiar with Chicago's EL history or equipment (despite having ridden from O'hare and Midway into the Loop)
Paul F.
The first 2 links say "Forrbiden", the the website works!
Of course, if the CTA 6000 series was made in affordable plastic, they could properly be lettered for SEPTA, too. A couple of sets were sold to SEPTA to run on the Norristown High Speed line when accidents had depleted the ranks of the bullets and stratford cars (prior to the arrival of the current equipment):
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?52150 (http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?52150)
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?69138 (http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?69138)
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?69076 (http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?69076)
Quote from: paulsafety on October 07, 2007, 05:24:28 PM
Of course, if the CTA 6000 series was made in affordable plastic, they could properly be lettered for SEPTA, too. A couple of sets were sold to SEPTA to run on the Norristown High Speed line when accidents had depleted the ranks of the bullets and stratford cars (prior to the arrival of the current equipment):
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?52150 (http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?52150)
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?69138 (http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?69138)
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?69076 (http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?69076)
The 6000 series eventually totalled 770 cars plus one replacement body. The first 200 were all- new construction, the rest were built using new bodies and using former CTA streetcar components. The most distinguishing feature is the side door...flat on the first 200 which are the cars that went to Philadelphia...and curved matching the curved contour of the side bodies. It would be a bit-of-engineering to allow for this distinction. The 6201-6470 is the easiest to model being they are symetrical...the married pair having identical window arrangement. The 6000s that went to Philly are not symetrical...one car in the married pair has the conductor operating position window. The last 50 cars were double ended for one-man operation.
Not to rain on anyone's parade but this is just to point out some of the intricasies of modelling rapid transit.
David Harrison
Quote
Not to rain on anyone's parade but this is just to point out some of the intricasies of modelling rapid transit.
David Harrison
You're not raining on my parade, David! Thanks for the added information -- I'm here to learn.
If the cars in the 6201-6470 range were modeled, I would be willing to live with the inaccuracy (and if I later decided that i couldn't, I could modify the doors, right? As it stands now, I'd have to kitbash brass models, or rebuild craftsman kits ($$$).
Paul F.
I this is the deck-roof 2800-series CTA (Met L') car that I was referring to:
http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/gallery/images/wood/cta2904.jpg
This is the 1800-series CTA (Northwestern L') car that I was referring to:
http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/gallery/images/wood/cta1812.jpg
Of course, I could live with the deck-roof 2700-series CTA (Met L') car, with the fishbelly sidesills too:
http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/gallery/images/wood/crt2791.jpg
All better than the usual kneejerk reaction by a manufacturer when you mention wood-bodied elevated car, interpreted as clearestory roof, with open end platforms. Either in Chicago, or New York City.
Franfort el said, "
All better than the usual kneejerk reaction by a manufacturer when you mention wood-bodied elevated car, interpreted as clearestory roof, with open end platforms. Either in Chicago, or New York City."
Count up the responses in this thread alone...five respondents and seven urban areas were suggested. One respondent even has a favorite for four different areas. For a manufacturer, their question would be clearly...what are we going to do with the other thousands after these five each buy their sets. Is that what you mean by "kneejerk"??? To me its just the manufacturer being practical.
Hey I'd like to see more rapid transit but its a question of practicality. We know the chances of models when we first choose what we want to model. Me, with Amtrak and the NEC I was lucky, real lucky. With UP, I just sit back and wait....it'll come in time.
Of course if you want a transit model from Bachmann,..heh, heh!... get a special person to work on a rehab project of an RT car in a transit museum and it'll be done.
David Harrison
I don't have a bias against open-platformed wood-bodied el' cars. In fact, I have approx. a dozen in my kitbashed car roster. But the point is that almost every time a manufacturer come's out with a wood-bodied el'car, it's either one of the South Side L' cars from Chicago, a Manhattan Railways 6-4-6 window car, or a Brooklyn Union car, from New York City. The Northwestern L', and Met L' in Chicago, had closed vestibule wood-bodied cars, and so did the IRT in Manhattan and the Bronx. The BMT even went a step farther, and rebuilt wood-bodied cars where all doors opened directly into the passenger compartment, just like later steel-bodied cars in both cities, and elsewhere.
I don't want every car that I like to be produced, necessarily. But it would be nice to have something different than the same configeration being clone over and over. Chicago is not just the 4000's, and 6000's, anymore than New York City is just the Low-V's, R-17's, and BMT Standards.
Who has done wood, wood/steel transit cars in plastic in HO scale? My transit modelling was mainly in O scale, although I have a lot of HO CNS&M and CSS&SB.
David Harrison
To my knowledge, other than the numerous brass offerings of wood, heavy steel, light-alloy steel, and stainless steel done in brass over the past thirty-seven years, only the Life-Like/Walthers Proto 1000 R-17's, and R-21's, along with Image Replicas BMT Standards, R-1's, 15's, 17's, 21's, 26/28/29/33's, 62's, 68's, and 142's, have been done in plastic. MTS Imports have done the CTA 4000's, and R-1's, in epoxy back in the early 1970's, and Traction Models did the BMT BU wood-bodied gate cars with center doors, along with the IRT Low-V's, in a cast metal kit. MTS Imports also did the CTA 1-50's, in cast metal back in the early 1970's. I know this, because I have a pair of the MTS Imports cast metal CTA 1-50's, and a pair of the IND R-1's, along with a few of each of the Traction Models cars. All of which I bought new. Being that I was working my way through 9th-thru-12th Grades at the time and on an allowance, "new car orders" for my transit roster were somewhat restricted by financial constraints at the time, so I kitbashed a lot of gate cars out of AHM (now IHC) oldtime coaches.
The point is still that in the intervening years, nobody has produced a wood-bodied closed-vestibule heavy rapid transit car in plastic, except for Bronze-Key Models' deck-roof CTA 2800-series Met L' cars almost twenty years ago. And they were impossible to find in any train shops that I frequented, away from Chicago.
Like I said before, I don't expect even half of my preferred cars to be mass-produced. But it would be nice to see at least one variation of a pre-1940 elevated car, with enclosed end vestibules, with or without center side doors. Either IRT, BMT, Met L', or Northwestern L'. It doesn't matter as my rapid transit layout is freelanced.
Thanks. That was an excellent summation. For a minute I had thought I had missed something as I implied from your previous posts that a plastic wooden model other than the Bronze Key model rareity had been made. Now I can breathe easier, LOL.
David Harrison