My 7yr old son and I are planning a layout together and I want an outer loop of 3 rail O scale, A middle loop of On30 and a small intererban line of On30. For the outer loop of 3 rail O scale we plan on running an MTH Zephyr w/protot2{1st version}, a Lionel GP9{regular AC} and/or my wife's K-line 4-6-2 Coke steam engine. The middle loop of On30 is planned for our newly aquired Bachmann 2-6-6-2 and the intererban route is planned for our Bachmann railbus.
My MTH Zephyr{O} and the Bachmann 2-6-6-2{On30} have sound and I'd like to get that used...maybe I can add sound to the Lionel GP9 and K-line steamer and the Bachmann railbus.....I currently have 2 Lionel CL80s and a Bachmann EZ DCC for power...both low end units simply for basic usage....I"m looking for a controller{s} that will run the sound well off of the DCC units and my MTH 3Rail Zephyr...is there such a unit that can do that? and can it run 3 rail AC. I'm probably asking too much here, but if I can get a lead on a better solution I'd go with it. Is it possible to run 2 different controllers for a line- one DCC and one AC{as I recall the MTH should be able to run DC or AC}?
Thanks for your time and looking-
You will need two separate control systems. EZ command will run anything that is DCC (NMRA DCC compliant) which is basically any scale other than 3 rail O Gauge (Williams, Lionel, MTH). A modern 3 rail O scale transformer will give you the whistle, bell and prime mover sounds but you will need an O gauge digital system to run them in digital mode.
Burlington-
I urge you not to build your layout as you described it unless it is to be a short-term, holiday set up. You'll find that trains running around in circles, even three trains with sound, will become very boring very fast. You'll also find, as the YM has stated, that you'll need two expensive operating systems since there is no system which can operate both DC/DCC and AC. Your scheme will be fine as a holiday set up, perhaps around a Christmas tree. However, I urge you to put the three-rail O train on the innermost track. It is significantly larger than the On30, even though are built to the same scale, and it will interfere with your viewing the smaller trains if it is in front.
If you are looking to build a permanent layout I suggest that you do it as just two systems, the three-rail O and the On30. The O layout can function as an animation on a main layout of On30 trains. A DCC system on the latter will permit you to operate more than one train on a track at a time, with each train moving in the direction and at the speed you have set for it. You can expand such a layout to whatever size and complexity you wish using DCC to control all of it. This will give you plenty of potential to develop a layout which remains interesting and possibly challenging long into the future. However, I will disagree with the YM that the EZ Command is a good choice for your DCC controller. In the first place, it has essentially no programming ability (which you are likely to find you do want someday even if you don't want it now). It also offers only limited control over decoder functions like lights and sound. Much more importantly, the EZ Command has very little power -- only one amp -- so two trains with sound would be the absolute maximom you could ever have, if you can even do that! EZ Command can operate two, maybe three locomotives with sound in HO, assuming that the locos are of recent manufacture and their sound systems aren't power hogs. The sound system in an On30 loco wouldn't need to draw any more power than an HO system, but the greater weight of On30 trains will force the motors to work harder and that means they'll draw more current. Two new, current, well-adjusted, sound-eqipped locos can probably be run on an EZ Command but you'd be extremely lucky to be able to run three, or to add track power lights to cabeese or passenger cars. Older trains or thirsty sound systems might well limit you to a single locomotive at a time.
You can easily add a booster to the EZ Command but you'll find that the Bachmann booster costs about three times what an EZ Command costs. You can use other manufacturers' boosters if you adapt the connecting cables (not a hard job) to save money on the booster, but you'll still have an investment that's at least equal to, and probably more, than what you'd pay for a more powerful and versatile entry-level system like Bachmann's Dynamis or what's offered by other manufacturers.
Whatever you do, good luck and have fun. I hope I haven't rained on your plans too much but I'm trying to present some options and experience that you can use to make decisions about your model railroad. In the final analysis, that's what counts. It's your railroad and you can do anything you want with it.
-- D
Thanks for the input gentlemen, As I knew the controllers I have now are a basic starting point but not what I'd need for the future. I like the Dynamis and the MTH DCS commander..hard call, for me, to decide on which.
No christmas layout for this- My planned layout will be 5' wide and done in an "L" at 8' on the one end and 10' on the other end...that should be enough space- I hope! I'm trying to figure in some elevated and lowered trackage to keep the grade at 2-3%...zero point would be flat and if I can get the numbers right I can ease the grades over the lengths a tad easier by the old cookie cutter board set up...just gotta get it all on paper via "anyrail 5" 1st.
My 3 rail Ac has the old lionel log loader and unloader and a coaling bin so my son has some things to do...I know he'll get bored watching the trains just run around, but he's already showed me that "the sounds make it funner"{his termage-he's 7}.
Almost wish Bachmann would make some action cars for On30 to bring the kids into it..might make it toylike then at that point, but as always, to get the kids in will make for more long term users...what did we start on when we were young?
here's something that may make your decision easier. dynamis is an nmra compliant dcc system (think vhs) and the mth system is proprietary (think beta).....if you're familiar with the video tape systems i used as analogies, you are aware that the proprietary system, even though it was backed by a big name (sony) soon fell by the wayside because it was incompatable with everybody else's standard. do you really want to take that chance with the mth system? practically everybody else has embraced the lenz dcc system, which has become the nmra standard. it is not proprietary, and as an open system anybody's decoders will work with it.
Jeff, thanks for that...I didn't know - and your right, it does make the choice easier now.
The below link has a lot of good info for non Bachmann questions like the MTH and three rail. MTH, DCS has issues when running with DCC. Many in the below forum have discussed that issue. There are many, many members there and it is a very good forum for general questions.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744.aspx
Rich
Burl-
Be aware that a five-foot width will be problematic unless your layout is to be an island in the middle of a room. The usual rule of thumb is
that no part of a railroad should be more than 30" from the edges. That's because reaching in to a layout farther than that is likely to damage
scenery and possibly rolling stock. You can put access points in the middle of your train surface, say a lift-out panel or an open area concealed
by high scenery. But, the high scenery which conceals your access port will also conceal the trains running on the other side of the layout.
If you are thinking of a table/island layout, let me suggest that you seriously consider running your trains around the walls instead. You can get
longer runs, greater realism and easier access than with a table layout, as well as perhaps using less floor area for your railroad.
-- D
- Rich, thanks for the link, I'll check it out....as much as I want sound from my bachmann stuff - I want the sound from my mth zephyr too!
-Don, 5' is the most I'd go for depth for the very reason you stated...luckily I have a long reach which will help. My other idea was to make the "L" layout on rollers...why?....so I could roll it out away from the wall for any needed access. I love the idea of a shelf layout...just don't know if I could/would dedicate that kind of space...but your right, it would be neat and alot kinder on grades due to the length. Add that my son{OK- me too} loves tunnels and bridges and he wants a turntable in the worst way and we all know what kind of realistate that takes up even in scale.
I am not 100% sure but I think that the new DCS system by MTH is what you want to look into, it mentions being able to use it with DCC and PS-3.
I would check things out before buying anything, as it stands now, you may have to invest in two differant command control systems, but I think with MTH getting into H.O. as well you have a better chance using the MTH system to control both the H.O. and three rail O gauge trains.
If you do go with the MTH command control you will need an MTH power supply or older Lionel transformer and not the CW-80.
Lee F.
Burl and philly-
One does have limited, but not very limited access to MTH digital features
when using DCC. The reverse is not true; MTH digital will not operate
DCC. Thus, go with DCC if you want to operate both MTH and non-MTH
equipment.
-- D
Lee, I have one of the origonal PS2 MTH zephyrs, and while I love the old girl, I may be asking too much to try and control both that and the bachmann On30 we have...As I've read so far the MTH DCS controllers work well with MTH but not with bachmann . My son loves my...oops, our, bachmann 2-6-6-2 and the rail bus...the steamer has the oem railsounds and I need to add something to the bus someday soon since that adds to the fun. We both like action, steam and diesels so that's why the 3 rail for the lionel/k-line action cars and the diesels...unless I can kitbash a large diesel to run on On30 to keep him happy.
If it was all my call, I'd do the whole layout in On30, but I have to keep my son happy too if I want him to stay with it....no guarantees there either way I guess but I'm trying this the shared way for now.
While the simple choice of a dynamis would be the easier choice for us for the bachmann stuff, the idea of the IR leaves me a tad concerned with our outside corner L layout, but at $117ish new that's pretty cheap to access all the CVs for the 2-6-6-2 and whatever we'd do for the railbus.
It's a shame all the manufactures can't play well together, but I guess that'd make for less sales on someone's part if they did.
Burl-
If your outside corner causes reception problems you can get a centralized receiver or put a couple of small mirrors in the room to spread the IR around. It tends to bounce around naturally so you might not need any remediation but there is help if you need it.
-- D
Quote from: Doneldon on December 03, 2012, 08:12:26 PM
Burl and philly-
One does have limited, but not very limited access to MTH digital features
when using DCC. The reverse is not true; MTH digital will not operate
DCC. Thus, go with DCC if you want to operate both MTH and non-MTH
equipment.
-- D
So a person would be better off using DCC for both the On30 and 3rail MTH O gauge?
At least this is how I am reading the response, you would get almost all features of PS-3 with DCC.
But will DCC work with PS-2 by MTH, as this set-up is differant then the PS-3 which can sense which system it is on.
PS-2 by MTH can run on A.C. voltage in conventional(non-command control) or run with the MTH DCS system and not the TMCC system by Lionel.
Anyway from what I have read about the MTH DCS TIU base, you can set it up for use with DCC, this is according to the MTH manual.
How well it may work, I have no real idea as this is something that I read in the MTH manual.
Lee F.
MTH's new PS-3 will run on DCC, however they are the only one that will work with DCC.
You can always run in conventional mode, without command control. As buying two or more command control systems gets expensive.
For older MTH and TMCC & Legacy systems you will have to buy the appropriate command control system for them to work with their respective engines.
Getting back to the original posting; he will need three command control systems for what he wants to do. Lionel will need either TMCC or Legacy system, and MTH will need DCS/TIU unit if you want command control.
With MTH do not use the CW-80 as it makes the MTH engines with PS-2 go crazy!
Lee F.
Going by the last post...I'd only need two controllers.....the Lionel and K-Line engines are the standard style -no DCC or anything, it's only the On30 Bachmann and the MTH proto 2 Zephyr that have special needs for full sounds and functions.
Quote from: Doneldon on December 04, 2012, 12:10:24 AM
Burl-
If your outside corner causes reception problems you can get a centralized receiver or put a couple of small mirrors in the room to spread the IR around. It tends to bounce around naturally so you might not need any remediation but there is help if you need it.
-- D
Now that's a neat idea!{Mirrors} I planned on the controller shelf being in the front corner of the layout so we could swing either way.
If you only have one engine to use with any command control set-up, I would wait until I had three or more engines to buy any command control system. Prices for command control in O gauge can be around $300.00 for the base and handheld remote.
Lee F.
Update- Today I tried the MTH 0-8-0 switcher out, was bought as "never ran"{clean wheels/pick ups and only $86!), and put a 9v battery in for quick playing. Not happy with the results using the Lionel CW80....whistle and bell were reversed and the chuff rate was way off after roughly 1/2 throttle...almost sounded like the unit was confused signal wise. OK, so I know a far better controller is in order so we can run this and my MTH zephyr. I tried...
For the last 2 weeks we've been running our lionel GP 9 bangor and aroostook intermittantly...she's a real buzzer- sound wise...so much so that I pulled it to take a look at the relay as I suspect it may have an issue since it's sooo loud. Maybe it's just me...since it "looks" fine{how to test correctly?} The darn K-line 2-6-4 steamer keeps derailing the front truck on our loop right where the tree cord goes under the track...could use more tension!{yeah, or a smoother transistion I suppose-hehehe}
I pulled the trigger on a Dynamis system...it's enroute as we speak. This way I can better control the 2-6-6-2 sounds better...the wife is getting a tad ticked that the boy and I are frequently setting up and loop on the kitchen floor to "play"...the sound is rather loud for she and the daughter in the living room I guess.....doesn't bug us?!
Lastly, I bought a weaver FM trainmaster body in O gauge...the intent is to shorten it as needed after finding a dcc HO running chassis for under it. The boy and I are wanting a narrow gauge diesel for our On30 rails...and "no", I'm not a rivet counter or prototype nut...there's nothing "modern" out there yet for On30 so we'll make our own. My son and I are agreed that we like the tweener years where steam and diesel ran together before steam was phased out. -Helps that my grandfather worked for the CB&Q/BN roundhouse here in town...I'm an anything pre BN kind of guy...though cascade green in "Burlington"{no Northern}, C&S and FW&D works fine too. To each our own....
Burl-
I'm not at all sure that a new controller will correct the out-of-sync issue with your 0-8-0 chuff or its bell/whistle reversal. Those matters are decoder related. I would guess the somebody who "never ran" the loco changed some of the programming, messing up the sounds in the process. A reset to default might well clear it up for you. Assuming you get things straightened out, you got an excellent buy on that machine.
I'll bet you are missing a spring between the top of the pony truck and the bottom of the frame on your Pacific. Try putting some weight on the top of the truck if you can't locate a replacement for the spring.
Your new Dynamis will allow you to adjust the sound so your wife doesn't report you to the EPA for noise pollution.
You might try kitbashing an S-gauge loco body on an HO frame for your On30 diesel. I think the smaller size of the S body will look better
with your other O-scale narrow gauge equipment than would a full scale O-scale body. Narrow gauge stuff is really quite a bit smaller than
full size.
-- D
Don, the 0-8-0 is a weird set up, sound wise. Creep her and the chuff seems fine, but as soon as you kick up the throttle is gets out of whack...add revesed bell and whistle when using the lionel controller. This is why I'll need the proper controller for that engine, so I can try to reprogram it. The same controller could be used for my mth zephyr so it'd be a win/win...maybe I could find a slightly used one...I seem to be lucky lately!
I looked for S scale diesel bodies and came up short and that FM O scale body was only $11 so I'm not out much at present.....a whimiscal diesel is a sure thing so far. I'm not a rivet counter...for my day job the ACE and Impax units count the rivets I make...I just buy/build, kitbash, or scratch what I like.
The K-line 4-6-2 never had a spring, but that doesn't mean I can't find one..or your weight idea...she needs something!
Soon I'll have the dynamis so we can quiet things down while running..."mute" just isn't the answer....and with a 7 and 10yr old, "quiet" is all too rare a thing around these parts...
Burl,
Get your MTH 0-8-0 engine off the CW-80 as of yesterday! MTH and the CW-80 don't mix in any way shape or form, especially if it is PS-2 by MTH. >:(
Use an MTH Z-1000 or an Atlas or Williams 80 watt transformer with it, or use the ZW by Lionel.
Don,
Are you mainly into H.O.? If so you may not know that the Lionel CW-80 puts out a chopped wave compared to a regular sign-wave for A.C. voltage and that is why MTH with PS-2 fail miserably with the CW-80. It is the only transformer that don't play well with MTH PS-2 equipped engines.
In H.O. you have command control standards, with O scale or O gauge we don't have NMRA standards as yet and everything is more of a hit & miss venture for the buyer unless he is well informed about what he has bought and how to use the product.
Lee F.
Quote from: phillyreading on December 17, 2012, 02:08:53 PM
Burl,
Get your MTH 0-8-0 engine off the CW-80 as of yesterday! MTH and the CW-80 don't mix in any way shape or form, especially if it is PS-2 by MTH. >:(
Use an MTH Z-1000 or an Atlas or Williams 80 watt transformer with it, or use the ZW by Lionel.
Done..and thank you for the heads up!
-with O scale or O gauge we don't have NMRA standards as yet and everything is more of a hit & miss venture for the buyer unless he is well informed about what he has bought and how to use the product.
...That's why I'm here...for the knowledge!
Lee F.
Glad to help you.
Anyway O gauge needs to have some command control standards set, at least that is my concern about it. The two larger companies have competing systems rather then complimentary systems like H.O., meaning that you will need two completely seperate systems to run both styles of command control in O gauge trains. :P
At one time even K-Line had a remote control set-up on the market, not sure what it did, but there was at least one more type of control system. ;D
Now WBB has a remote control for the Williams operating cars listed under Williams accessories.
As for transformer power abilities, the CW-80 don't work with most MTH, the MRC transformers have some drawbacks but not as bad as a CW-80.
I am still using the older ZW's made during the 1960's because of their power abilities and being durable, won't fall apart like some of the new transformers do.
Lee F.
Lee, I thought about a ZW but with the now 2 MTH units that would've been the wrong move for me for lack of CV control. Trying to set any MTH CVs with a standard controller{clinks/clanks} is a really P.I.T.A.. I'll start searching around for an MTH full controller. This is somewhat expected for me...no shock the train companies want proprietary controllers for their engines...they wouldn't want you going and buying a Lionel controller for your MTH engine or backwards from that...no extra company revenue that way. Built it brand loyalty for the most part...
FYI, I am usually not brand loyal but some things just require a certain brand's transformer or controller.
MTH's Z-4000 has the increment adjustment or set features for most MTH built-in or can be accessed very easily for most MTH products. Basically it makes MTH resets and other features of MTH sort of a breeze instead of a pain in the seat. That might be the only reason I would ever consider buying the Z-4000, the cost is very high for me compared to my current salary, of partial unemployment.
Lee F.
Lee, are you saying the Z4000 can do CV's?...or just minor resets?
I'm on a budget too my friend. Being only 47yrs old has its good and bad points...still got a while to go before retirement....too long!...but I've also got a few too many irons in the fire at the moment as well...got an old car to rehab, house repairs{are either ever done?!} and then other things added into the mix...I/we need a raise! ;D
From what I am reading into the information on the MTH Z-4000, you can scroll or go to the step level you want without having to go thru most of the painful steps associated with a Z-1000.
Burl, I have to sqeek out a mere existance some weeks, have bankruptcy payment to make every month for the next 27 months, partial employment/threat of total job loss, and I am still about 11 years away from retirement age or Social Security payments if the money will last from the government. Just applied for unemployment benefits, will see what happens, you can claim partial unemployment or at least that is what I was told by the human resource person at my job.
Also have a car that needs replacing, 98 Camry, windshield leaks like a screen window, shocks moan & groan over bumps in road, trunk has leaks.
Lee F.
Lee, I appreciate the help...wish there was a way to help you find what you need! As for the car...my glass and seals leak too, but thats because it's all origonal on my car....bet it's easier to find parts for yours than for a 40 plymouth sedan.
Happier holidays!
After reading the discussion here and many other post like this over time, I have to ask: can not the electrical internals of a MTH O engine be replaced with a DCC decoder board? I see that there are many on the market. That way every thing plays together with the Dynamis DCC System.
Quote from: Ken G Price on December 24, 2012, 04:42:42 PM
After reading the discussion here and many other post like this over time, I have to ask: can not the electrical internals of a MTH O engine be replaced with a DCC decoder board? I see that there are many on the market. That way every thing plays together with the Dynamis DCC System.
It might be possible, however you would need a G scale DCC decoder because of current draw(6 amps) with two motors and a smoke generator in the MTH engine.
FYI, about MTH engines; they use D.C can motors, so replacing the DCS command control may work but it could get costly, I can't say for sure about costs as I mainly run what is made by the companies who produce the items and am not into replacing electronics.
Lee F.