Just purchased DC Spectrum of both of these units. I already have the DCC versions in the road names I don't care for.
I was planning on just swapping the shells (already did this) and realized the motors on the Spectrums have flywheels. Would these be better than what I have in my DCC versions.
My question is would it make a big difference in performance swapping the motors and shafts to the DCC unit. ( if this is even possible).
My real intentions were to purchase two nice decoders and take my first shot at installing a decoder.
Any advise would be appreciated.
Jerry
Jerry, I have always felt motors with flywheels were better than ones without, bc the ones with flywheels produce more torque. I have only one loco with a can motor that does not have flywheels and I don't believe it performs as well as the ones I have that have can motors with flywheels.
I have never switched motors out from ones w/o flywheels to ones with so I can't give you advice from that standpoint, but aside from needing the length of the two motors to be fairly close in length to connect the drive mechanisms, I would think the other important thing would be to determine if there is clearance in the chassis of the loco you want to use for the flywheels themselves.
Jerry-
This shouldn't be a particularly vexing change out and I think you'll find smoother running, especially at low speeds.
-- D
Why not put decoders in the dc locomotives
D - thanks that is what I was thinking.
jb - The motor and drive shafts appear to be of the same length. It looks like the spectrum has shorter shafts to compensate for the flywheels.
Ram - That thought was in my original post. and I am still thinking about it as it would be my first attempt of a analog engine decoder install, but I think I will do the motor swap to the upgraded DCC frame first as this is probably easiest to do and will give me more time to play with the decoder install. I am hoping to post pics as I go along with the decoder install.
Richg, Jeff,Jonathan (my mentors) any suggestions? I really appreciate your inputs.
Jerry
That's good Jerry.
Did you check to see if you were to put the Spectrum's motor with the flywheels in place of the motor w/o the flywheels, if there is clearance in the frame for the flywheel to spin w/o hitting the frame underneath where the flywheel would be? I mention this again bc when I looked at replacing a Bachmann Blue Box loco can motor that did not have flywheels with a Plus motor with flywheels, there was not enough clearance given in the chassis for the flywheel to turn without the bottom of the flywheel hitting against the chassis.
Just curious, are you sure this is a Spectrum model? I was not aware of the Bachmann FA-2/FB-2s being offered in anything other than the Standard Line (Blue or Red-Orange Box). According to Bachmann's Parts diagrams, both Standard Line models, DCC/Sound and DCC ready, should have the same drive. They difference is primarily the PC board and with or without a speaker it appears. Then again, maybe I will learn something.
NDO
You are correct they are Bachmann Plus which from what I understand they are pretty much the same thing. I could be wrong. From what I read (don't ask me where) the Plus name was changed to Spectrum.
I have an SD45 Spectrum DCC and the only difference to me is they added DCC and the frame is made/ cut for DCC.
Jerry
You're correct that the Plus and Spectrum lines, the drives between the two were basically identical. The difference I think came in the details primarily. The Plus models had basic details, but also lacked some much of the time, such as grab irons. The Spectrum Line tried to cover most details, making it a slight upgrade. I know one good example was the SD45, offered in the Plus and Spectrum Lines around the time of its first release. The Spectrum engine had working drop steps, formed wire air lines on the trucks, etc. The Plus line units has molded on Drop Steps, in the down position, and thick plastic air lines on the trucks. Other thans that it was hard to tell them apart. The newer Spectrum SD45s are even more upgraded. What color box did you FAs come in by chance?
Quote from: Jerrys HO on January 26, 2013, 02:33:37 PM
You are correct they are Bachmann Plus which from what I understand they are pretty much the same thing. I could be wrong. From what I read (don't ask me where) the Plus name was changed to Spectrum.
Jerry-
It's a little more complicated than that. B+ was an upgrade line years ago, Bachmann's then premium-level product. Spectrum replaced B+ as the
name for Bachmann's premium line but it also raised the
extent of improvement. I guess we could say it
was an
enhanced renaming, not just a simple rebranding.
-- D
i always thought that the alco fa's were standard line, soecifically "sound value"......i find it interesting that the non sound versions would lack flywheels while the sound versions have them. an educated guess would be that the frames themselves would be the same because to do otherwise would add to the cost of producung the locomotives. if this is true, then it follows that the flywheel motor should fit the non flywheel chassis. i would suggest a side by side comparison of the two versions chassis to see if you can detect any differences in the frames at all. if they are the same a swap should be as easy as disassembling the locomotives and swapping the motors. this is a procedure i did many times on the old athearn blue box locomotives.
put another way, companies generally don't like to produce more parts than absolutely necessary. drive systems therefore usually use standardized parts. the bachmann motors i've seen in the various models i've purchased over the last 10 years or so all appear to be the same, with only the presence or lack of flywheels as options. as such, another educated guess tells me you should be able to add flywheels to any bachmann motor without them if you can obtain a pair from parts & service. note that this specifically excludes the old pancake motor which would be almost impossible to add a flywheel to.
as a final thought, with a good dcc decoder (one which supports cvs 2 through 6 at the very least) it should be able to program the locomotive to run together by adjusting the momentum settings of the non flywheel locomotive.
FYI from HO Trains Scale Trains Resource
The 1992 Plus line introduction featured the F7A and F7B, plus the B23-7. The GP35 arrives in 1993; the SD45 shows first in 1994; and 1996 had the B30-7. The B23-7 and B30-7 are identical models both drive and shell tooling.
The Plus line comes in four years after Bachmann had introduced its upscale Spectrum series in 1988. The Plus diesels shared features found on Spectrum diesels. For example, the Spectrum GP30 drive and separately applied factory installed grab irons and coupler lift bars are also characteristics of the Plus line GP35. The drive included an all metal chassis, helical cut gears, 8-wheel drive, 5-pole skew wound motors, and dual machined and balanced brass flywheels. Multiple roadnumbers per roadname were also a feature found in the Plus series.
Perhaps their similarity with the Spectrum line was a factor in the short life of the Plus line. By the late '90s, the Spectrum line would include all the previously issued Plus diesels minus the F7A and F7B.
and of course those same gp30s and gp35s are now in the standard line and share a similar drive with the h16-44.
NDO,
I have a Plus FA and B unit-Southern Daylight. The Plus' come in light gray boxes and the Spectrums come in dark boxes. There are lots and lots of each listed on EBay. I also have a GP35 Plus that came in a gray box.
Jeff,
Do all of those you just mentioned, have flywheel motors?
yes they do. and they all share a similar drive with the spectrum diesels i've seen.
the only newer bachmann diesels i've seen without flywheels are the standard line ft's gp40s and "gp50s".....not sure about the gp38-2, sd40-2 or the smaller ge switchers.
jbrock27, I now understand, you have an F7A and F7B, not FAs and FBs. The F7As and F7Bs were built by a General Motors division called "Electro-Motive Division", while FAs and FBs were a product of American Locomotive Company or "Alco". Bachmann offered F7As and F7Bs in their Plus line, and have recently reintroduced them in the Standard Line with sound. The FA-2 and FB-2 models were brand new models for the Standard and Sound Value Line. Bachmann never offered FA-2s in Southern Pacific Daylight paint that I am aware of. An F7A and an FA-2 have different Physical Charactoristics on the body. Here are some examples:
F7A: http://rr-fallenflags.org/lv/lv0512pma.jpg
FA-2: http://rr-fallenflags.org/lv/lv590rpa.jpg
Now to answer your original question, If you are trying to fit an F7A shell onto an FA-2 chassis, it probably will not work due to body length and shape. If you are trying to put an old F7A shell on a new F7A drive, it may work, but you would have to compare the shells to see if the tabs that hold the shell to the chassis are identical, and that there are no tabs or anything in the shell that would restrict the engines mechanical performance. As for the motor change out, that I am not 100% sure on. I seem to recall a manufacturer or two in the past, use to skip putting flywheels in their train set engines, to keep the cost down, unsure if Bachmann did this or if it was another manufacturer, without looking at some samples.
I am also not sure if Bachmann had changed motors since then, but I do remember most of the old Plus engines were not DCC friendly by any means, without having to do some milling on the chassis to make room for a decoder. The only way to really know would be to try and see if the new motor is identical, dimension wise, and that there are clearances for the flywheels. The flywheels will make a difference, performance wise, but just keep in mind that if the engine runs good as is, I don't think I would go through the trouble. I enjoy tinkering, and understanding the mechanics of models, but I myself, find that if the engine works fine, I don't both changing things like that.
The main thing that flywheels will do for your engines is they it will make the engine run smoother, the motor will not "jolt" as hard when stopping or starting, and it will assist an engine in getting over dead spots or dirty track.
Ryan
jb that is exactly where I got my info from and yes they come in a black box just like the Spectrums. I bought them for the UP shell's for $30.00 and seem to have gotten more than I bargained for.
Now my biggest question is how difficult will it be to swap motors. I have not taken them fully apart yet to research this but a little insight will be better than going in blind. I did notice a bunch of yellow caps on the DCC units motor and none on the DC unit.
I may turn the others into dummy's. One thing I noticed is that the frames for the B unit's are the same as the A unit's.
I will try to post some pics by tomorrow if this will help some one help me.
NDO
QuoteThe main thing that flywheels will do for your engines is they it will make the engine run smoother, the motor will not "jolt" as hard when stopping or starting, and it will assist an engine in getting over dead spots or dirty track.
That is what I am looking for. I have an SD45 Spectrum that has them and it sure is smooth. If I put the flywheels on the other A unit it will have everything my SD45 has.
Jeff
Quotethe only newer bachmann diesels i've seen without flywheels are the standard line ft's gp40s and "gp50s".....not sure about the gp38-2, sd40-2 or the smaller ge switchers.
I have one of the new SD40-2 and it is without flywheels.
Jerry
OK here is what I have...
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l499/jeborne/DSCN0203.jpg)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l499/jeborne/DSCN0205.jpg)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l499/jeborne/DSCN0206.jpg)
the motors look the same except for the thingamabobs on the DCC motor. the motors also look to be reversed as they are both facing the same direction of travel.
Here is the diagrams
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l499/jeborne/dccfa.jpg)
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l499/jeborne/dcfa.jpg)
One mistake I mentioned they are not black boxes, they are silver.
Jerry
interesting that the parts drawings show an ft body for the top one and an f7 body for the bottom. there is no difference that i can see in the two chassis which would preclude the use of a motor with a flywheel in either. if one were indeed an ft that would explain the lack of a flywheel as the fts don't have them. but the chassis for an ft should be slightly shorter than that of an f7.
for a decoder i know nce makes one that is a drop in replacement for the bachmann decoder. i think it is called bach-dsl or something similar. it should work for converting an analog loco to dcc as well.
Jeff, thank you for that info on the new locos.
NDO-sorry bro, my bad, I was not clear in my post. I assumed since the subject was F7s, that when I simply said "F" it would be understood I was making a reference to F7s. But yes, what I have is an F7A and F7B unit in B+. And like Jerry, I found that except for the B unit not having a headlight, the two frames/chassis were identical.
And thanks for the input on my older question about changing the shells. As it turns out, I was able to take a new FTA shell and mount it on a B+ F7 frame/chassis. Turns out the length was an exact match. The only modification I had to do to the FT shell was to cut out 2 posts that were diagonal from each other, that are for 2 of the 4 screws to hold the shell to the frame. The Dremel worked nicely for this.
This subject is relevant bc like Jerry, my first thought was to change out the motor, but when I looked at the new chassis/frame it looked just like the one in Jerry's picture and it did not look "deep" enough where the flywheel would be. So I went with leaving that alone and switching the shell instead to the B+ with the flywheel motor. But I was not trying to modify anything for DCC, I still just run DC. And yes, Bachmann sells plenty of price pointed locos now, that do not have flywheeled motors. As I stated in my first post to Jerry, I always have felt motors with flywheels were better than those w/o.
Jerry-I think the motor cradle set up is compatible for both; my concern still is clearance for the flywheels against the frame/chassis. I agree that was a good price for 2 units. Were they used or "NIB", "unopened", "unused"....??
**And yest, I have HO Scale Trains Resource saved to my Favorites ;)
...and my bad again, I see all along the talk has been about FAs. Sorry, when I see "F", my mind automatically pictures an F7.
Here's a question related to Jerry's project: is it possible to even remove the flywheels w/o a flywheel puller?
Bc unlike just sliding flywheels off an Athearn Blue Box motor, I had no luck trying to just pull the flywheels off my B+ GP 35.
Thanks.
jb27 & jeffw
QuoteWere they used or "NIB", "unopened", "unused"....??
jb27 yes new in box,never opened except for the B unit which was lightly weathered.
The top pic w/decoder is an ft which came out of the diesel commander set.
The bottom pic is the Bach Plus which is a f7.
The frames are identical and as you noted had to cut two post in the shell to swap shells.
I had purchased a B unit w/DCC on board. The shell from the Plus unit swapped with no mods.
Here's a pic of the changes.
(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l499/jeborne/DSCN0209.jpg)
jb27 the frames have the room to swap to the flywheels but I think I am going to take Jeffs advice and get a nice decoder to put in the Plus frame and maybe sound in the B unit.
I think I am chickening out on the motor swap. Why fix it if it's not broke.
I will keep posted as to when and how I start the decoder project.
Thanks Jeff, JB27,D, NDO
Jerry
this is slightly off topic and i relate this only as an example of what can be accomplished with dcc through programming.....
those of you who have been in the hobby for years remember the athearn blue box locomotives, they were simple, rugged and reliable. you may also recall ernst made regear kits which replaced the standard athearn gears with thin profile ones which increased the gear ratio from 12:1 to 32:1 resulting in much improved low speed performance, marginally increased pulling power and a top speed of about 40-45 scale mph. the gear kits were made for almost every locomotive athearn made, except the dd40. i quickly made ernst geared athearns my standard motive power.
fast forward a few years. after years in n scale, i returned to HO with my old fleet of athearns and a brand new dcc system. i had just purchased a dd40 for use as a track testing tool, figuring that of those long wheelbase rigid trucks could negiotiate my track reliably i'd have no problems with my smaller diesels. in the course of installing decoders in my fleet, the dd40 got one. problem was, with its factory gearing and no easy way to convert it to 32:1 it was an orphan, not compatable with any of my other locomotives.
i had read about dcc speed matching, and had even done some of it with my other athearns which all ran at slightly different speeds. i decided to see if i could speed match my dd40 to the rest of the fleet which ran maybe half as fast. guess what? it worked!!! i found i could accomplish through dcc programming what was impossible to do through gear ratio. the 12:1 unit ran with the 32:1 ones.....
that is an extreme example of what a fully programmable dcc decoder can do for you. you can pretty much speed match anyting if you tinker around with the settings. the basic speed comtrol settings are in cvs 2 to 6, with more in depth fine tuning available in the 60s 70s and 80s.
That sounds like a good decision making process Jerry and makes all the sense to me.
I am very interested in knowing how this turns out for you. I'm glad to follow along and learn stuff.
Jeff, it certainly sounds like DCC is capable of some awesome stuff. Maybe some day I take that journey...
I wonder how many modelers are in DCC now? I had a couple of hand me down magazines I was looking through that were from around 2009 and I was surprised to read that even at that time, they said 75% of modelers were still in DC and 25% in DCC.
-Came back a little while ago from the "Big E" Railroad Hobby Show. Talk about mind blowing overload!
jb
that day may come sooner than you think. the price of the decoders keeps dropping, the features f the command stations and decoders keep improving. dcc becomes more affordable every year. i do know i've wired my layouts for dc even though i run dcc in case i ever need to revert to dc because of a command station failure. my first zephyr served me well for 8 years, until replaced by a new model zephyr last summer. the old one still works even after all the abuse my son and i put it through. nwo i won't have to revert to dc because i have a spare in case of problems.
just a few years ago you couldn't have touched a sound equipped locomotive for under $500, or a dcc equipped one for under $200. i now have 3 soudn locomotives all of which i bought for under $100 each. i've bought dcc equipped bachmann gp40s for $25 apiece.
the biggest obstacle you'll face in converting is the cost of the number of decoders you'll need to convert all your locomotives.
You are probably right Jeff and make an excellent point about needing to decide whether to convert locos already in my possession. And I need to consider that for any future purchases: do I even buy any more analogs? Buy analogs with the idea of coverting in future and what the possibilities are in being able to do that with that particular loco? All good things to consider.
Your point is well made about the price coming down making it doable. Reminds me of LCD and Plasma TV prices coming down making them affordable for a lot of people.
Yea, I would have to start from ground zero with the power supply and go from there. And here I was thinking I was doing well, recently changing over to a MRC Tech II 1400 power pack ! :D
All, just a little FYI. You can put flywheels in teh GP40/50/38/etc. I do it on a regular vasis. I used to buy the flywheels but now I turn my own "custom" flywheels. Usually you hace to "remove" material from the frames and a little patience making the drive shafts. If you have the money and don't have the time, it is easier to put in and hardwire a decoder. This Winter has been rather light on the railroad but last Winter I assembled/built over 15 DCC locomotives with the custom flywheels, custom motors and drive lines. If anyone is interested I would be glad to share what I have learned in this process. Hope that helps! Stephen