Hi,
Back into model railroading after 60+ years. Dusted off my old Lionels and celebrated with a
new scale Williams GG1 purchase. I have an old Lionel ZW 250watt transformer. Can I run my
new GG1 on the same track with the ZW with my old equipment? Or, do I need to purchase an
AC transformer and run the GG1 and any new items on separate track. Its been so long, I'm assuming
my old ZW converts the AC to DC to power the track. Its still packed up in the attic somewhere so I
can't look at it just yet.
Thanks
Tony
aren't all the 3 rail trains like lionel run off ac not dc?
My Lionel and Marx, three rail all run off of AC.
Rich
Your Lionel ZW definitely puts out AC power. That was the standard for all 3 rail trains when it was made.
As to the power requirements for the Williams by Bachmann, I would suggest you ask on that specific forum below.
Happy RRing,
Jerry
Rich, Jeff, Jerry,
Thanks for the response. I was just entering my teens when I ran my Lionels last. I honestly don't recall
(and probably didn't even know back then what AC or DC was) what version powered the track. I just made
an assumption it was DC (and you know what they say about assumption!) based on the small guage wire that
connected to the track. I Went hunting around the internet and found an article on measuring the voltage output
of the ZW (or any transformer I guess) and you need a AC voltmeter! Well that answers the question. I was
one confused trooper for awhile. Like I said its been 60+years since I enjoyed my trains. Now its time for me
and my grandchildren to all have fun with them. Thanks guys. You'll probably be hearing more from me as I
"muddle through" all the new digital stuff. And Jerry I did contact Williams directly re the Scale GG1 but haven't
received a response yet. The GG1 and the PRR solid pilot K4 were part of my childhood and finally getting my hands
on the scale models is a dream come true.
Tonino
How old is your transformer? If very old the wiring inside could be perished and may not be safe to use.
Quote from: poliss on March 03, 2013, 01:30:02 PM
How old is your transformer? If very old the wiring inside could be perished and may not be safe to use.
Very good point. Metal or plastic case? None of the old ones had a polarized or three prong plug.
Rich
Tonino-
I'd worry a whole lot more about the safety of your old transformer than whether it will run your new model. It will work fine as long as the GG1 is a three-rail loco. You shouldn't need separate tracks for your new and old equipment unless some is three-rail "O" and some is two-rail "O". Under no circumstances should you attempt to fudge a system which tries to run three-rail and two-rail power on the same trackage.
I know many people who still use old transformers and there are always a bunch at train shows, but I'll bet many have had their works upgraded. It shouldn't be difficult to rewire the insides and you shouldn't have to replace the controllers and actual transformer as long as they work. You can ground a metal case by attaching it to the green or bare wire in a new three-wire supply cord.
-- D
Old ZW's are my fav's but now are getting old enough to have dry rotted power plugs on most. The link here is about the horn circuit but I touched on some things about the old zw throttles you should know about. I have two replies in this thread read both. http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,22741.msg180736.html#msg180736
You may need a little new track too. If you bought the full scale vs semiscale. The full scale GG wont make an o-27 turn.
Im not sure about O (31"), but I read 36" fastrack is a no go, the tightest turn Ive seen them on is 48" and the overhang was very big. Turnouts may be another issue too. http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,22741.msg180736.html#msg180736
Oh, almost forgot. Oil and grease your old engines and cars ASAP so they last another half century (or more). That old stuff has probably turned "chunky" by now. Modern train lubes are best, safer on plastics and paint. Lots of videos on youtube about doing this. A overall cleaning and checking of old motor brushes is a prudent move also. When your out of smoke pellets, original and aftermarkets can be found on auction sites, but smoke fluid can be used on most if wadding/wick is OK. Fluids come in scents now, like "smoke pellet","chocolate", or "scent free". Read this thread too http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,22923.msg181478.html#msg181478
One final thought, depending on the loco, the new train may have sounds which can only be used if you have a modern power control. The horn will work, and some engine/brake sounds might, but that's usually it. Research on the new engine will answer that better. Oh, reversing the track leads will either work bell, or horn, not both. And modern power units dont work the old whistles the same/as well as the old transformers, but thats another book long subject in itself. (oil & check brushes on old whistle tender motors too.) I love my old Lionels too, but wait till you get used to modern WbB(Wlliams by Bachmann) they are better in many ways. WELCOME BACK TO THE WORLDS GREATEST HOBBY!
Most Lionel O gauge is AC powered. There were some Lionel starter sets made during the 1990's that were DC 3 rail, that is correct DC 3 rail track, so be careful.
To know for sure look up the Lionel engine number and find out if it was a DC version.
Also American Flyer trains made by A.C. Gilbert were AC with two rail and can be used with the Lionel ZW transformer. So there is no real hard and fast rule that says all two rail are DC or all three rail are AC. You have to do some homework and find for sure!
DC will not harm an AC motor, it may run if it is a universal motor. But AC will ruin a DC only motor very quickly!
The ZW we are all talking about is the post-war version 250 or 275 watt label on it, basically the same transformer but with a diffferant label due to the year it was sold.
AC transformer with four outputs, two whistle and direction levers, one on each side.
Post A & D have the whistle and direction control, post B & C just have variable voltage.
FYI; the polarized plug is basically garbage! Sort of like selling a freezer to an Eskimo! If you know anything about AC voltages and wave ratio you know that AC can not be positive or negative in a true sense because it alternates polarity 120 times a second.
Lee F.
Hi,
I have a thought, my rule is, when in doubt error on the side of caution!! If you have a newer home it most likley has a GFI outlet close by, I would use that one. If not they are easy to install, any Home Depot can set you up. I to was into trains a very long time ago, lots of memories, I was able to get almost all of them working again. I baught a lot of new ones to, almost fifty now and growing.
Live you're dreams because no one will do it for you.... 8)
The Williams scale GG1 according to the catalogs would operate on 42" diameter curves.
Lee,
IMO the polarized plug is useful for phasing if more than one transformer is in use.
I agree that in actuality that may be be the only use it is in AC three rail.
The big drawback to the polarized plug is that you have to swap wires on your cord to properly phase a transformer with the polarized plug on it, or change the plug over to a non-polarized one.
Another issue that most guys don't think about when putting transformers in phase, the common wire is sometimes has under-sized wire because people think that the common does not carry a load when in actuality it returns the load and must be rated accordingly(the same as the positve wire), or you need to run a common wire(same size as the positive wire) for every positive wire to the track if running branch feed wires.
Lee F.
Quote from: GSXR1000 on March 07, 2013, 04:28:00 AM
Hi,
I have a thought, my rule is, when in doubt error on the side of caution!! If you have a newer home it most likley has a GFI outlet close by, I would use that one. If not they are easy to install, any Home Depot can set you up. I to was into trains a very long time ago, lots of memories, I was able to get almost all of them working again. I baught a lot of new ones to, almost fifty now and growing.
Live you're dreams because no one will do it for you.... 8)
While GFI outlets are good to protect your transformer or other AC appliances, they don't protect your trains. To protect your newer trains you need a TVS or transient voltage supressor, they are only about $2 to $3 a piece from Mouser Electronics. Be sure to get bi-directional 32 volt TVS for use with lower AC voltage for model trains.
Lee F.
Dear All,
A good place for the TVS is across the lock-on, one lead to center rail terminal, the other to outer rails terminal. Make sure it is bidirectional.
Better yet, if you can afford it, install one in each of your locos, one lead to center rail pickup wiring, the other lead to frame or outer wheels pickup wiring.
In a previous calculation I came up with a 43 volt TVS.
This seemingly high voltage allows for "peak" instantaneous voltage
(20V RMS is about 28V peak) plus some allowance for TVS toleraces.
(I was trying to avoid having a TVS on the low end of its "voltage tolerance" try to 'sink' the transformer's normal max voltage, ZWmax = 20V RMS.)
If you don't go hog wild up to 20 Volts RMS AC, a 32 Volt TVS should work.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Interesting, I never looked into it. Don't the new DCC decoders have this or a similar kind of diode protection?
Quote from: GSXR1000 on March 09, 2013, 04:17:38 PM
Interesting, I never looked into it. Don't the new DCC decoders have this or a similar kind of diode protection?
I think your question about DCC and TVS would be better answered on the H.O. forum. All I know about DCC is that it is generally used with H.O.trains, I could be wrong.
Being that most of us are into O gauge trains on this forum.
Lee F.
The HO folks operate with DC current and the O three rail with AC.
I realize the 3R O actually runs on DC but some of the HO guys may
not unless they also do 3R O.
philly-read up on tvs. Its not just for dcc. The day your old thermal breaker contacts fuse, you want one.(Joe Knows, listen)
there are some other good current threads on dcc in O right now. interesting. But what I wouldnt mind seeing for us conventional guys would be radio controlled sounds for rolling stock mounting. cheap of coarse. non-molested engines, airwhistle, AND extra sounds. Sounds fun.
Torino- With the ZW you may never need another transformer. I replaced my cords recently and after reading and experimenting, chose to polarize them to make use of them together in running blocks and accessories off the same common outside rail. they must be phased properly or will short. turning one plug 180 degrees is the fix. all my polarized plugs go into the polarized gfi power strip so all my commons connect. Now all commons can connect on all 6 transformers on any temporary layout making wiring simple safe and consistant enough for my 6 year old nephew to do alone. literally. No plug flip required. Bigger modern double flaired shaped plugs are easier to handle for the kid too. Keeps fingers away from plug blades.
A bad pic from the deepfreeze- A prewar Z (before ZW), a KW, three 1033's(one disguised as a Christmas tin), and a 80w(? anyone got a name for these no-nome Lionels). ALL now carry modern electronic safety, whistle rectifiers, customs tricks, and polarized plugs.
(http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u570/GGa1lin/Snapshot_20130312_zps647fab1e.jpg)
GG1onFords,
I did not state that TVS units were for DCC only! Please do not mis-quote me, what I was trying to say is that I did not know that DCC had a TVS unit inside it.
I know a little about the TVS units, they clip or hold the voltage to a pre-determined maximum voltage, something that a fuse or circuit breaker could never do. The TVS unit will protect against a momentary voltage spike and a fuse will just let it go thru.
A fuse or circuit breaker has to sense the overload condition before tripping, and with new electronic circuits in the newer engines you can fry something inside the circuit board in that short period of time. In this new electronic age you need almost instant protection fom voltage spikes and that is what a TVS will do.
The reason I mention about using a TVS unit is that your normal household GFI doesn't give any protection on the low voltage side(when you have a derailment) of the transformer because it protects only the incoming voltage. So you need something to protect your low voltage side as well.
Lee F.
Not quoting you! If I quote ver batum it will be in blue at the top. (or in quotation marks at least) I wrote a statement giving you advice about something I thought you may have been interested in, but unaware of, because it is often only seen on digital command control layouts. It was intended in good faith. Not meant to offend. Tonino may have been a better choice for me to direct my response to, as this is his thread. But you have nicely described the TVS better for all those who were unaware so I dont fully regret it. Thank you. For sharing your knowledge ;D
I understand a little more about the common uses of TVS, but didn't know that it was used with DCC, maybe I too need to find out some info about the uses of electroincs in differant scale model trains.
In the O gauge area a lot of people are installing TVS units(at least three years now) to help with the voltage spikes that occur with a derailment and can damage newer electronics, especially the stuff in Lionel's TMCC & Legacy command control systems and MTH's DCS system for comman control.
Also with the older transformers in O gauge, you need to add in a circuit breaker for added protection because in most older transformers(1960's to 1985, maybe longer than 85) the circuit breaker mainly protects just the transformer and then not that well. Case in point; a post war 250 or 275 watt ZW, or a KW 190 watt will fry wire sizes under AWG 16 wire with a dead short before the circuit breaker pops off.
I know a bit about electrical work and trying to learn more about electronics, but will say that I don't know everything about elecrical work. I was NIASE certified auto tech for brakes and electrical, also went to vo-tech school for three years for electrical work in the mid 1970's. I also know about 3 phase electrical work and 3 phase motors.
Lee F.
No one knows everthing, someone will always know better than us, everone makes mistakes, usually by assumption. :-[
We all have our own strengths, I'm trying to merge my career knowledge with my DCC knowledge too. The brake system testing you did will make it easier on you in a way. Your voc/schooling didn't do you any harm for sure, but nothing beats hands on experience. I learned video/vending and industrial HVAC controls, successfully, but self-taught on the fly, to put food in my belly. So my theory can be shaky. I had to find failed chips etc. and replace, more about logic than knowledge, but I learned along the way. Helped track down an IC control frequency glitch to whether power was from a Wye or delta source, but 3-phase motors are one of my weaknesses even though HVAC cert. I never did hands on 3-phase trouble shooting. Only swap-outs. Vending=1000 ways to build a circuit which did they choose that day? Think modern electrics are intimidating. One look in an old pinball machine vs new may change your perception. The old nightmare wires and relays once everywhere in free-for-all fashion, almost all disappear, everyting is still there but now miniaturized neatly on a circuit board. ;D DCC, same thing, only different. ;D